Pool suggestions you should avoid.

[Takumi4G63]

Practice makes you perfect, the biggest fallacy in Pool!

Practice doesn't make you perfect, LEARNING is what makes you perfect.
Practice just reinforces what you have learned. If you fail to learn when
you practice, then all you have done is just kept in stroke.[....]

I'm not sure what you mean....it seems that we learn a lot FROM practicing. It is a result of practicing. Also, people use the word differently. Some people think of money games (or even any playing of the game) as "practice". Surely this results in learning....

 

[arsenius]

I'm not sure what you mean....it seems that we learn a lot FROM practicing. It is a result of practicing. Also, people use the word differently. Some people think of money games (or even any playing of the game) as "practice". Surely this results in learning....

I agree that this could be learning (hopefully we always learn when we play), but how could anyone say that's practicing. Practice is a fairly well defined term, in my opinion. Does Rocky practice on fight night? I don't think so.

Practice -- exercise: systematic training by multiple repetitions;

 

[seymore15074]

ADVICE TO BE AVOIDED:

1. Join a league.
2. Drink a beer to take the edge off.
3. Don't drop your elbow.
4. Any "you should have banked that" advice.
5. Anything that has to do with deflection and/or buying a special shaft.
6. Buy an ULTIMATE TIP TOOL.
7. Don't try to replace your own tips.
8. Wear a glove.
9. Don't use english.
10. Anything that has to do with a dominent eye.

There's a quick rant, I love this thread. I just wish the posts had more content..

 

[Scott Lee]

The elbow drops immediately after contact, it's natural progression as you follow through. That's for shooters using pendulum stroke.

You're misinformed here Wolven. With a pendulum stroke, the elbow does not drop at all. The tip finishes near, or on the cloth, and the grip hand finishes on the chest, near your armpit. At no time is an elbow drop part of a "natural progression as you follow through".

To address Joey A's question: Why do SOME pros seem to drop their elbow on SOME shots? IMO, it's just something that many of them are not aware of. Most pros cannot tell you why or how they stroke the CB...their response is to just SHOW you, or a verbal response of "like this", and then execute the shot. Again, Bob's response of the timing issue, regarding the elbow drop, is the critical point. If it is happening after contact with the OB (which last 1/1000th of a second), there is no consequential effect on the shot. Also, there is a difference between a slight drop of a few inches, and a complete elbow collapse. For many players who assume a more upright stance, it appears that they 'drop' their elbows, when in fact, it is still a pendulum swing...just a different perspective, that makes it appear to drop down.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Southpaw]

I think one of the biggest suggestions to avoid is, "find a pro you like and mimic is style and stroke". This is probably the toughest thing to do and somewhat near impossible. I think you have to go with what works for you and is comfortable for you. Try to mimic Mike Davis or even Bustamante and you could really mess your own stroke up.

Southpaw

 

[Aaron_S]

I'll probably get eaten alive for this one, but I can't help the fact that it's always been a pet peeve of mine.

I cringe when I hear someone telling a beginner that they should use back-hand english. Don't get me wrong, I understand the merits of BHE, but I think it should be considered an advanced technique, not something you feed to beginners in an effort to help them shoot sidespin-shots more accurately.

The most difficult part of this game, IMO, is delivering a straight and accurate stroke to the cueball, and, for most people, straight is defined as a lack of side-to-side motion. If you have an out-to-in, or in-to-out motion in your stroke, you're probably going to have difficulty hitting the cueball where you intend to. This aspect of the game is a major struggle for many players, but, as if it isn't difficult enough already, BHE requires that you get down on the shot, alter the horizontal plane (by moving your back hand one direction or the other) to something completely unnatural (by that I simply mean misaligned with the shooter's stance and sight-line), and then deliver a straight and accurate stroke on the new plane.

It's for this reason that I don't recommend BHE for anyone, but I especially don't like it when I hear an experienced player pushing BHE on a novice. Let that person develop a straight stroke, and then they can decide when/if they want to use BHE. If just feel that, if you want to give a beginner some good advice about side-spin, you should tell them not to use it at all until they build a stroke, and can effectively use the vertical axis of the cueball.

JMHO,

Aaron

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I cringe when I hear someone telling a beginner that they should use back-hand english. Don't get me wrong, I understand the merits of BHE, but I think it should be considered an advanced technique, not something you feed to beginners in an effort to help them shoot sidespin-shots more accurately. ...

I don't completely disagree with you, but suppose you have a student who pockets balls reasonably well but has never used much side spin. They happen to shoot with a squirty cue stick. They want to start using side spin. You need to show them about compensating for squirt. How do you do that?

I think that showing them aim-and-pivot (aim without english, pivot to the compensated line with english, stroke straight, shoot straight) is a way to show them quickly what they are up against and will allow them to make easy shots with side spin. When I do introduce aim-and-pivot to beginners, I also point out that it is a largely broken crutch that will cripple their game in the long run if they use it strictly.

 

[tommy84]

I stick to PAT with my practice since a while now and I really improved a lot in a shorter period of time than before.

Before it was old school drill like various draw-shots. I don't practice draw-shots anymore.
If you have a good stroke they'll happen automatically. You just have to get used to your perfect stroke. Line up all 16 balls on the baulkline and shoot them into the corner pockets with a firm stroke.
Your mind will remember this sooner or later and you'll always follow through like in this excercise

Also this "You have to stay like on this picture" is non-sense. Your stance is determined by your very own body. If you stand like in a school book and have another anatomy you'll have a bad stroke.
Just grab your cue at the centre of gravity and let it go - relax. It will point in a certain direction.
Now, without moving the cue change YOUR position until the cue points at where you want to shoot at. Then you'll have a perfectly straight stroke

Most important thing is to ignore the rule in many books "proceed to next excercise when you made 10 in a row"
With that you'll practice the early drills very often and the later lessons nearly never.
If you fail to accomplish one, proceed and work on your problems later on.

 

[Cornerman]

deleted by the ignorant reader's union.

 

[Handsumm]

I'll probably get eaten alive for this one, but I can't help the fact that it's always been a pet peeve of mine.

I cringe when I hear someone telling a beginner that they should use back-hand english. Don't get me wrong, I understand the merits of BHE, but I think it should be considered an advanced technique, not something you feed to beginners in an effort to help them shoot sidespin-shots more accurately.

The most difficult part of this game, IMO, is delivering a straight and accurate stroke to the cueball, and, for most people, straight is defined as a lack of side-to-side motion. If you have an out-to-in, or in-to-out motion in your stroke, you're probably going to have difficulty hitting the cueball where you intend to. This aspect of the game is a major struggle for many players, but, as if it isn't difficult enough already, BHE requires that you get down on the shot, alter the horizontal plane (by moving your back hand one direction or the other) to something completely unnatural (by that I simply mean misaligned with the shooter's stance and sight-line), and then deliver a straight and accurate stroke on the new plane.

It's for this reason that I don't recommend BHE for anyone, but I especially don't like it when I hear an experienced player pushing BHE on a novice. Let that person develop a straight stroke, and then they can decide when/if they want to use BHE. If just feel that, if you want to give a beginner some good advice about side-spin, you should tell them not to use it at all until they build a stroke, and can effectively use the vertical axis of the cueball.

JMHO,

Aaron

I hate to disagree with Bob, but you are right in my opinion. BHE IS
an advanced technique. You don't show 6 year olds how to throw a curveball, and you don't teach a Kindergardner cursive writing.

A player should be ready for BHE if and only if they grab the other more basic concepts about the stroke, follow, draw, and regular sidespin.

 

[seymore15074]

It's for this reason that I don't recommend BHE for anyone, but I especially don't like it when I hear an experienced player pushing BHE on a novice.

I agree. Avoid BHE.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... A player should be ready for BHE if and only if they grab the other more basic concepts about the stroke, follow, draw, and regular sidespin.

Well, OK, but then how do you teach squirt compensation? What specific technique do you suggest, if any?

 

[DoomCue]

I hate to disagree with Bob, but you are right in my opinion. BHE IS
an advanced technique. You don't show 6 year olds how to throw a curveball, and you don't teach a Kindergardner cursive writing.

A player should be ready for BHE if and only if they grab the other more basic concepts about the stroke, follow, draw, and regular sidespin.

I tend to agree with Bob. BHE is something I wish I had learned when I was coming up - now it's so alien to me that although I've tried to do it, I simply haven't been able to get comfortable with it enough to ingrain it into my game.

The big advantage of BHE is that a beginner, who is going to make lots of cueing errors, can get away with cueing errors and still have the CB take its intended path. The only thing you have to do is figure out the pivot point, a relatively quick and easy exercise, and have the player consistently use the same bridge length. Of course, there are going to those times when the pivot point can't be used because bridge lengths aren't always constant. I would (and do) teach a beginner to use BHE.

-djb

 

[Aaron_S]

I don't completely disagree with you, but suppose you have a student who pockets balls reasonably well but has never used much side spin.

If they pocket balls reasonably well, then it is probably safe to assume that they have developed a reasonably straight stroke. I'm not entirely against someone like that experimenting with BHE, although I would still not recommend it as a replacement for parallel english. I think parallel english is a perfect next-step at this stage because it drives home the importance of fine-tuning your stance to not only be lined up with your shot, but to be lined up with your english as well.

They happen to shoot with a squirty cue stick.
They want to start using side spin. You need to show them about compensating for squirt. How do you do that?

This is another area where I probably depart from the conventional wisdom, as I feel that squirt compensation is not something that can be taught via some system, but rather something that the shooter must develop a feel for. It seems that a lot of instructors feel the need to have a system for everything (which is good, for most things). I understand the reason for this; nobody wants to tell their students "hey, you're on your own on that one", because they fear that the student will view them as being inadequate as an instructor. However, I think there are times when that is exactly what a good instructor should say.

I do believe that an instructor should make their students aware of squirt, as well as what equipment-related factors contribute to increased squirt, and a way to measure how much squirt they're currently experiencing, but to introduce BHE as a method of compensating for squirt is, in my mind, like using a tomahawk missile to destroy an ant hill. It may get the job done, but what other damage might you be inflicting at the same time? IMO, squirt is significant, but not significant enough to warrant messing with the stroke. In order to be good at the game, players are going to have to develop a feel for certain things, like speed, and I think squirt is just another one of those things. The guy with the squirty cue should know that he can limit the squirtiness by using the softest tip available and by only shooting as hard as necessary; after that, he's on his own. Go practice.

When I do introduce aim-and-pivot to beginners, I also point out that it is a largely broken crutch that will cripple their game in the long run if they use it strictly.

It's good to hear an instructor say that; I agree whole-heartedly, and I'm sure you are an excellent instructor. If I lived closer to you, I'd probably already be a student.

Aaron

* the opinions in this post are those of the poster and not those of..... practically anyone else on Earth

 

[Aaron_S]

The big advantage of BHE is that a beginner, who is going to make lots of cueing errors, can get away with cueing errors and still have the CB take its intended path.

While I completely agree with this statement, I don't see that as a good thing. I see BHE as a short-term solution that could severly limit the player's long-term potential. If we make cueing errors, we need to suffer the consequences; that's what incents us to improve.

Aaron

 

[Steve Lipsky]

ADVICE TO BE AVOIDED:

1. Join a league.
2. Drink a beer to take the edge off.
3. Don't drop your elbow.
4. Any "you should have banked that" advice.
5. Anything that has to do with deflection and/or buying a special shaft.
6. Buy an ULTIMATE TIP TOOL.
7. Don't try to replace your own tips.
8. Wear a glove.
9. Don't use english.
10. Anything that has to do with a dominent eye.

There's a quick rant, I love this thread. I just wish the posts had more content..

NICE!!!

- Steve

 

[seymore15074]

Another good one:

The less rails or the less the cue ball has to travel to get your position the better.

 

[DoomCue]

While I completely agree with this statement, I don't see that as a good thing. I see BHE as a short-term solution that could severly limit the player's long-term potential. If we make cueing errors, we need to suffer the consequences; that's what incents us to improve.

Aaron

Hopefully, a student will always strive to get better - otherwise he wouldn't have sought out instruction in the first place.

I agree that EXCLUSIVE use of BHE can be detrimental. However, I don't see anything wrong with introducing it, with certain caveats, at the beginning stages (certainly after SPF, though) of learning our wonderful sport. Part of the joy of learning to play the game is pocketing balls, and true beginners need every little trick they can use. If I can teach someone to pocket balls just by using the same bridge length whenever possible, then that's what I'll do - I'll allow the addiction that strikes most of us on this forum to take over from there and drive the student to get better. Hopefully, the student continues down the path of learning which includes those shots which are missed due to using a bridge length not at the pivot point.

I didn't learn about BHE until much later in my personal learning curve, and I feel that some of the skills I have now could have been attained sooner if I had learned about BHE earlier. Honestly, I don't really know for sure if my feeling is true or not - we always wonder about the path not traveled.

-djb

 

[ScottW]

I dunno about the "don't join a league" bit. I learned a lot playing league. That said, I don't look to my league nights to learn from anymore - I pick things up outside. But leagues *can* be a good learning arena for many folks, if their skill level warrants it and the skill level of the other folks in the league is higher enough that someone can learn from playing them.

 

[Aaron_S]

Hopefully, a student will always strive to get better - otherwise he wouldn't have sought out instruction in the first place.

But if the ball still goes in the hole, how is he to know that he didn't stroke it well? Wouldn't you concede that "tricks" like this simply delude a person into thinking that they did something good, when in actuality they just did something mediocre? I don't agree that we should show beginning players "tricks" to help them ignore their mistakes. If they have the determination and drive required to become good at this game, then they don't need BHE to get them there. Here's the best example I can think of.

I'm a horrible golfer, but invariably when I play, I will hit a couple of beautiful drives right down the center of the fairway. If I were to be completely honest with myself, I would have to admit that those types of shots are probably the worst thing that could happen to my golf game, because all they do is lull me into a false state of contentedness. A "happy place", if you will, where I can tell myself that I sometimes put a good swing on the ball. If an instructor saw one of those swings, however, there's no way in hell they would say "That's it! Keep doing whatever you just did!"; no, first they would faint, then, when they woke up, they would say "sorry man, I can't help you".

The straight ball-flight that I am sporadically blessed with is simply a product of several (freakish looking, I'm sure) compensations that I've made on that particular swing. Compensations that only mask the serious inadequacies (stronger term needed, actually) in my golf swing. What's worse is, if I continue to make those compensations in a consistent manner, I will hit an even higher percentage of fairways as time goes on. Some people might call that improvement. I do not.

Sorry, I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I happen to view BHE as an inferior way to apply english to the cueball, a "broken crutch", to borrow Bob's term, and I disagree with introducing it to beginners. I know some advanced players who use BHE on certain shots to help them compensate for squirt, and I don't have a problem with that at all. I personally find it easier to use parallel english on those shots, which is probably the reason for my bias.

Respectfully,
Aaron