Pool teaching philosophy

I agree with you completely, but many top instructors in the US don't and are quite defensive about the topic.
 
If your only justification for teaching these things is "because that's how the pros do it" then I would argue that you don't really know your subject very well. As a student, I would not seek your advice a second time.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
When you read certain threads on Azbilliards, books videos etc you will notice that certain things are recommended that deviate rather significantly from what the professional players do. Personally I feel like the correct way to teach is to teach the philosophy of the current top players (not one in particular but the average of them) from the very beginning.

1. Bridge length. Most pros today play with long bridges. Exceptions exist but are rare.

2. Elbow movement. Several pros if not nearly all have some degree of elbow drop. It is rare to see someone with an entirely fixed elbow.

3. Use no spin. Good as a training tool. But for playing? Isn't this handicapping yourself, especially in 9 and 10 ball? Watch Earl Strickland play and you'll know what I mean.

What are your thoughts on this? Should you try to emulate the pros from the beginning or learn an entirely different style and then change?
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There are only say what about 3000 pros that have nothing in life but pool, 8 hrs a day practice and got it no mater how they shoot, and there are the millions who play casual play and careless how they shoot, at the end of the day, I can write a page or two on why and why not on all topics you referenced; and probably most of people using these books will not practice or put enough hours to even begin to know what it means or the difference, and if they did, the leave pool for a week or two, and start all over again.
My answer is, the time, effort, and dedication put in these books are great and highly appreciated; They teach pool, at least the basics, some do go advance, and are good, and site many pros as examples.
 
naji said:
There are only say what about 3000 pros that have nothing in life but pool, 8 hrs a day practice and got it no mater how they shoot, and there are the millions who play casual play and careless how they shoot, at the end of the day, I can write a page or two on why and why not on all topics you referenced; and probably most of people using these books will not practice or put enough hours to even begin to know what it means or the difference, and if they did, the leave pool for a week or two, and start all over again.
My answer is, the time, effort, and dedication put in these books are great and highly appreciated; They teach pool, at least the basics, some do go advance, and are good, and site many pros as examples.
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16, there are only 16 pros!
 
Straightpool_99 said:
I am not an instructor, but an avid student of the game (pool, snooker and carom). My reason for emulating pros is that their style has evolved through long times of trial and error and is adapted to the current playing conditions. Some books were written when slow cloths were more prevalent and also more generous pockets. I play both pool and snooker, but snooker and pool are different. Pool have more power shots than snooker and the balls are heavier. I believe that the pros strokes and bridge lengths are a result of those differences. While you can play pool at an extremely high level using a fixed elbow, short bridge and little english, I believe there is a reason why top pros do not play the game this way. You may fault my reasoning all you want.
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So read contemporary books. There are a lot of them out there. Mark Wilson -- a former Mosconi Cup Team member -- wrote a great one.

I don't argue against long bridges if the player's stroke is good enough, or to use "no english". But beginner and amateur players -- the people who most instructional material is intended for -- who only play a few hours a week would benefit from shorter bridges and minimal english because they still have trouble finding center ball.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
When you read certain threads on Azbilliards, books videos etc you will notice that certain things are recommended that deviate rather significantly from what the professional players do. Personally I feel like the correct way to teach is to teach the philosophy of the current top players (not one in particular but the average of them) from the very beginning.

1. Bridge length. Most pros today play with long bridges. Exceptions exist but are rare.

2. Elbow movement. Several pros if not nearly all have some degree of elbow drop. It is rare to see someone with an entirely fixed elbow.

3. Use no spin. Good as a training tool. But for playing? Isn't this handicapping yourself, especially in 9 and 10 ball? Watch Earl Strickland play and you'll know what I mean.

What are your thoughts on this? Should you try to emulate the pros from the beginning or learn an entirely different style and then change?
Click to expand...

Good question and I say a big Yes!!!,I would rather learn from just watching a pro than from listening to someone that has never been there and done that. If they never been there,then how the hell do they know?? Mind boggling to me really. Do what the pros do,even if you don't know why they do it..or at least try it. John B.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
I am not an instructor, but an avid student of the game (pool, snooker and carom). My reason for emulating pros is that their style has evolved through long times of trial and error and is adapted to the current playing conditions. Some books were written when slow cloths were more prevalent and also more generous pockets. I play both pool and snooker, but snooker and pool are different. Pool have more power shots than snooker and the balls are heavier. I believe that the pros strokes and bridge lengths are a result of those differences. While you can play pool at an extremely high level using a fixed elbow, short bridge and little english, I believe there is a reason why top pros do not play the game this way. You may fault my reasoning all you want.
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Very well said,imo. I agree with ya a 100% John B.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
When you read certain threads on Azbilliards, books videos etc you will notice that certain things are recommended that deviate rather significantly from what the professional players do. Personally I feel like the correct way to teach is to teach the philosophy of the current top players (not one in particular but the average of them) from the very beginning.

1. Bridge length. Most pros today play with long bridges. Exceptions exist but are rare.

2. Elbow movement. Several pros if not nearly all have some degree of elbow drop. It is rare to see someone with an entirely fixed elbow.

3. Use no spin. Good as a training tool. But for playing? Isn't this handicapping yourself, especially in 9 and 10 ball? Watch Earl Strickland play and you'll know what I mean.

What are your thoughts on this? Should you try to emulate the pros from the beginning or learn an entirely different style and then change?
Click to expand...

As for the elbow drop the reason instructors don't like teaching this is because it requires precise timing. It is also a result of the long bridge and stroke. You have to drop your elbow after contact with the cueball not before and without a significant amount of time to practice this type of technique can cause major issues with delivering a straight stroke.

The problem doesn't occur on those days you are playing well-rather it occurs on the days you are just slightly off. What you should try to accomplish is to make the gap in skill between your worst day and your best smaller. If you incorporate an elbow drop into your stroke and don't have the time to practice it to perfection it will significantly hurt your game on those bad days.

The same is true for a long bridge. Unless your stroke is very straight it will highlight issues.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
When you read certain threads on Azbilliards, books videos etc you will notice that certain things are recommended that deviate rather significantly from what the professional players do. Personally I feel like the correct way to teach is to teach the philosophy of the current top players (not one in particular but the average of them) from the very beginning.

1. Bridge length. Most pros today play with long bridges. Exceptions exist but are rare.

2. Elbow movement. Several pros if not nearly all have some degree of elbow drop. It is rare to see someone with an entirely fixed elbow.

3. Use no spin. Good as a training tool. But for playing? Isn't this handicapping yourself, especially in 9 and 10 ball? Watch Earl Strickland play and you'll know what I mean.

What are your thoughts on this? Should you try to emulate the pros from the beginning or learn an entirely different style and then change?
Click to expand...


If you watch some old time pro straight pool players, most of them don't use a lot of spin. No elongated bridges either, and a more compact stroke. These players can play to an exact spot on the table, as opposed to only the correct side of an angle.

Since 9 ball took over, the game evolved over time. The need to power the ball grew. So the bridges got longer and the spin stroke grew stronger. Watching one pro might be different than another, especially during different decades.

As you mentioned, these are simply different styles. One is not better than another, and all have something to offer. Whats really cool is that there are so many different routes and track lines you can imagine for any given shot. So one pro might play a shot completely different than another. You will find that a center ball route is better for certain shots, and spin routes for others.
 
John Brumback said:
Good question and I say a big Yes!!!,I would rather learn from just watching a pro than from listening to someone that has never been there and done that. If they never been there,then how the hell do they know?? Mind boggling to me really. Do what the pros do,even if you don't know why they do it..or at least try it. John B.
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Sorry John, but that is about the most ignorant statement I have read on here. You just don't know what you don't know. The only mind boggling thing is that ANY pro would think that way. I guess it's just the old mentality of not wanting any REAL information "out there".
 
Straightpool_99 said:
It is certainly true that the style of the older generation of players were a bit different from players today, but the playing conditions were also very different. The cloth was slower, deader rails (which could not be relied upon) etc..It was said that Mosconi in particular would almost never shoot bank shots, which experience had taught him were fraught with peril. I'd never argue that with him, no doubt this was hard earned knowledge in those times. However, with todays better quality of tables etc. you could be at a disadvantage doing this. Also the players were more upright in their stances, which can be explained several ways (which I won't go into here), but almost nobody does this today.

You might say that the style today has developed in part because of lack of formal instruction in fundamentals and all that... But i believe this only strengthens my point. Since so many players have independently arrived at the same general style without outside influence, maybe it has merit? I think the answer to this is YES. It does have merit, and unless someone can prove that another style is superior, we should at least entertain the possibility that this is in fact the correct way to play the game today.
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Another totally ignorant statement. "and unless someone can prove that another style is superior" Are you kidding me? Have you not read the thousands of testimonials on here of people improving after taking lessons from a qualified instructor? How they couldn't improve until they went to a qualified instructor, and then their game took off after years and decades of just watching and trying to emulate the pros and getting nowhere?
 
Neil said:
Sorry John, but that is about the most ignorant statement I have read on here. You just don't know what you don't know. The only mind boggling thing is that ANY pro would think that way. I guess it's just the old mentality of not wanting any REAL information "out there".
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Oh sorry there Neil must have hit a nerve eh??,lmao. Well ya got the pros doing what they do..then you have these (other) people that think they know...You can take it from here buddy.have a nice day,bro:) John B.

PS: is that all you got??
 
Neil said:
Sorry John, but that is about the most ignorant statement I have read on here. You just don't know what you don't know. The only mind boggling thing is that ANY pro would think that way. I guess it's just the old mentality of not wanting any REAL information "out there".
Click to expand...

Hmmm who to believe.... A legendary instructor and player or you...
 
Straightpool_99 said:
It is certainly true that the style of the older generation of players were a bit different from players today, but the playing conditions were also very different. The cloth was slower, deader rails (which could not be relied upon) etc..It was said that Mosconi in particular would almost never shoot bank shots, which experience had taught him were fraught with peril. I'd never argue that with him, no doubt this was hard earned knowledge in those times. However, with todays better quality of tables etc. you could be at a disadvantage doing this. Also the players were more upright in their stances, which can be explained several ways (which I won't go into here), but almost nobody does this today. I respect the skills of the old time straight pool players and have watched every old time match I could find to try to learn as much as possible from them regarding pattern play etc. The fact of the matter is that people play a more "wild" and "reckless" kind of straightpool today. The equipment allows for straight shooting, easy banks etc. Basically if you don't run out, you are dead.

You might say that the style today has developed in part because of lack of formal instruction in fundamentals and all that... But i believe this only strengthens my point. Since so many players have independently arrived at the same general style without outside influence, maybe it has merit? I think the answer to this is YES. It does have merit, and unless someone can prove that another style is superior, we should at least entertain the possibility that this is in fact the correct way to play the game today.
Click to expand...

How is better equipment going to hinder a center baller? If anything, it's gonna help him get around the table easier with little to no spin. You can't prove one style is superior to another, but you can learn as much as you can. Turn yourself away from center ball routes, and you are robbing yourself of valuable pathways.
 
Neil said:
Another totally ignorant statement. "and unless someone can prove that another style is superior" Are you kidding me? Have you not read the thousands of testimonials on here of people improving after taking lessons from a qualified instructor? How they couldn't improve until they went to a qualified instructor, and then their game took off after years and decades of just watching and trying to emulate the pros and getting nowhere?
Click to expand...

Well yeah..but what if they couldn't make a ball in the ocean before they went. Ya think it would be easy to show them some improvement? Get real buddy,haha John B.
PS: hey,your not one of them qualified instructors...are you? LOL
 
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