Pool teaching philosophy

Oh sorry there Neil must have hit a nerve eh??,lmao. Well ya got the pros doing what they do..then you have these (other) people that think they know...You can take it from here buddy.have a nice day,bro:) John B.

PS: is that all you got??

Going by YOUR faulty reasoning- you should be listening to Earl, since he can beat you. Where are your yellow glasses and arm and leg weights at John? Where's your javelin cue at? Why aren't YOU listening to what the better players than you have to say? Why aren't you using TOI on 80%+ of your shots? Why aren't you using a very short bridge like Allen Hopkins does? (oh yeah, you made another thread about how he doesn't know what he is doing :wink:) Why aren't you using a pump stroke like Bustamente does?

Point is John, most pros have no real idea of just what they are doing, or even why it works for them. Nor do you apparently have any real idea of what instructors even teach, or why they teach what they do. Guess it's just easier for some to get on here and mock without actually spending any time actually learning just what it is they are mocking.

You see John, despite what you may think, there is a science to playing pool. Balls have to react a certain way. There is no getting around that, despite what one pro on here thinks. (not you) Playing great pool is all about repeatability. Doing what does work over an over again. THAT is what instructors teach.

Going by your reasoning, we should just watch what the pros do, not even knowing just what they are actually doing, and then if we don't quickly become great, just give the game up because we don't have any natural talent for pool.
 
Hmmm who to believe.... A legendary instructor and player or you...

It's amazing to me we have the pleasure of reading pro input on these forums from champions like CJ Wiley and Brumback and Neil bashes them??? It's a lonely place to be a hater...
 
Going by YOUR faulty reasoning- you should be listening to Earl, since he can beat you. Where are your yellow glasses and arm and leg weights at John? Where's your javelin cue at? Why aren't YOU listening to what the better players than you have to say? Why aren't you using TOI on 80%+ of your shots? Why aren't you using a very short bridge like Allen Hopkins does? (oh yeah, you made another thread about how he doesn't know what he is doing :wink:) Why aren't you using a pump stroke like Bustamente does?

Point is John, most pros have no real idea of just what they are doing, or even why it works for them. Nor do you apparently have any real idea of what instructors even teach, or why they teach what they do. Guess it's just easier for some to get on here and mock without actually spending any time actually learning just what it is they are mocking.

You see John, despite what you may think, there is a science to playing pool. Balls have to react a certain way. There is no getting around that, despite what one pro on here thinks. (not you) Playing great pool is all about repeatability. Doing what does work over an over again. THAT is what instructors teach.

Going by your reasoning, we should just watch what the pros do, not even knowing just what they are actually doing, and then if we don't quickly become great, just give the game up because we don't have any natural talent for pool.

IMO,you said alot in there that I agree with,I'll let you try to figure out what that is.
oh and psst I'll play any of them guys you mentioned some banks. Tell em to line up:thumbup: John B.

PS: it's all good Neil.You have your opinion and I have mine. Almost everything in the world is just an opinion..really,imo.
 
Hmmm who to believe.... A legendary instructor and player or you...

Well, if you really want to improve, you first learn "what does what". The science of the game. Then, you take what is said, and weigh it against what the known parameters are. You then take what was said and glean from it what you can.

Or... you can just say " a pro said it, so it must be correct". Good luck with that one.
 
Very well said.............

Good question and I say a big Yes!!!,I would rather learn from just watching a pro than from listening to someone that has never been there and done that. If they never been there,then how the hell do they know?? Mind boggling to me really. Do what the pros do,even if you don't know why they do it..or at least try it. John B.

Just common sense.

Thank you john...........
 
I'm virtually self taught and so I give people tweaks here and there, but try not to override what they're doing unless it is so bad that they can't progress. Even my cue is a bit odd, err, very odd.

Work on everything. If there's something that's lagging behind, work on it more. If you have a strength, play to it and don't take it for granted(ie- not practice it). If you have a weakness, attack it.

One of these days, I'll have to make a video if for no other reason than to hear a critique on just about everything. Heck, even lately I've been trying to explain to people how I'm beginning to pocket with more ease and they just look at me a little funny(I'm even winning 9b games now). Could just be I'm not right in the head.
 
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Many pros don't even know what they do.......

Well, if you really want to improve, you first learn "what does what". The science of the game. Then, you take what is said, and weigh it against what the known parameters are. You then take what was said and glean from it what you can.

Or... you can just say " a pro said it, so it must be correct". Good luck with that one.

They just do. from hours of repetition.....

Find someone at a pro level or close is rare that can teach also or is willing to teach. The more they teach the better they get so even the pros need practice teaching and how to convey what they teach. .

Somehow the ones that can't play very well and never did keep trying to convince players that they can help them.

And some of them do if they teach the right things but with limitations for sure.

But I don't really think an A player that teaches can get a player to a pro level very quickly if at all.

Just my 2 cents of honesty.
 
IMO,you said alot in there that I agree with,I'll let you try to figure out what that is.
oh and psst I'll play any of them guys you mentioned some banks. Tell em to line up:thumbup: John B.

PS: it's all good Neil.You have your opinion and I have mine. Almost everything in the world is just an opinion..really,imo.

Yes, it is all good. Unlike what some on here want to propose, I am not bashing you or CJ. The ones saying that crap are the haters, not me. My point is simply that just because someone is good at doing something, does not automatically equate to them being able to even correctly describe just what they are doing. Efren is a perfect example of that. When asked about his pump stroke years ago, he didn't even realize he was doing it.

So, just because a pro says something, it does not mean that is should trump anything else said by anyone else. It should be given merit, and thought about, and then weighed against what known parameters are and then see if it has benefit. Sometimes what the pros say has great merit. Sometimes they really don't have a clue and are talking out their butts. Just because a pro says something, doesn't make it automatically true.

Likewise, just because someone hasn't spent countless hours practicing their technique, doesn't mean their technique has no merit. And, anyone that can't understand that, isn't worth listening to. (not talking about you there, John)
 
Well, if you really want to improve, you first learn "what does what". The science of the game. Then, you take what is said, and weigh it against what the known parameters are. You then take what was said and glean from it what you can.

Or... you can just say " a pro said it, so it must be correct". Good luck with that one.

I aint ever in my life seen one of them science guys that could play a lic. That should be a hint to some. John B.

I have an ol saying,it goes like this...."why your to durn smart to play good pool",hint hint.
Knowing all that ole shit will not help you to become a great pool player.Practice will,playing top players will and watching top players will..tho. But you can't be to smart
to learn,tho.
 
I aint ever in my life seen one of them science guys that could play a lic. That should be a hint to some. John B.

I have an ol saying,it goes like this...."why your to durn smart to play good pool",hint hint.
Knowing all that ole shit will not help you to become a great pool player.Practice will,playing top players will and watching top players will..tho. But you can't be to smart
to learn,tho.

Excellent post!


Some guys know every way that it's possible for them miss.:rolleyes:
 
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I aint ever in my life seen one of them science guys that could play a lic. That should be a hint to some. John B.

I have an ol saying,it goes like this...."why your to durn smart to play good pool",hint hint.
Knowing all that ole shit will not help you to become a great pool player.Practice will,playing top players will and watching top players will..tho. But you can't be to smart
to learn,tho.

That's the part you just don't "see". Why some can't understand the simplicity of it, I don't know. You even state the reason, yet fail to comprehend it. To play great, you have to spend humongous amounts of time perfecting just what YOU do. The key here is "reapeatability". If someone spends their time teaching, they aren't playing. If they aren't playing, they won't be a great player. Why anyone would equate time not playing as equal to not knowing what one is talking about, or that knowledge won't help someone be a better player is just beyond me. It has no reason, logic, or common sense to it.

Not a single great player ever got to be great on their own. Every single last one of them picked up knowledge along the way. Some of that knowledge from other great players, some of it from mere bangers. (Efren is proof of that) To say that knowledge has no merit is about as blind as one can be.
 
When you read certain threads on Azbilliards, books videos etc you will notice that certain things are recommended that deviate rather significantly from what the professional players do. Personally I feel like the correct way to teach is to teach the philosophy of the current top players (not one in particular but the average of them) from the very beginning.

1. Bridge length. Most pros today play with long bridges. Exceptions exist but are rare.

2. Elbow movement. Several pros if not nearly all have some degree of elbow drop. It is rare to see someone with an entirely fixed elbow.

3. Use no spin. Good as a training tool. But for playing? Isn't this handicapping yourself, especially in 9 and 10 ball? Watch Earl Strickland play and you'll know what I mean.

What are your thoughts on this? Should you try to emulate the pros from the beginning or learn an entirely different style and then change?

It depends on the current abilities of the student. I've only instructed complete novices. Expecting them to stroke with a 10-inch bridge is counterproductive because their stroke just isn't at that level yet. IMHO the beginning student needs to "build up" to pro-level habits, but to try to teach pro-level from the git-go is a recipe for disaster.
 
Added pic

I am not an instructor, but an avid student of the game (pool, snooker and carom). My reason for emulating pros is that their style has evolved through long times of trial and error and is adapted to the current playing conditions. Some books were written when slow cloths were more prevalent and also more generous pockets. I play both pool and snooker, but snooker and pool are different. Pool have more power shots than snooker and the balls are heavier. I believe that the pros strokes and bridge lengths are a result of those differences. While you can play pool at an extremely high level using a fixed elbow, short bridge and little english, I believe there is a reason why top pros do not play the game this way. You may fault my reasoning all you want.

Straightpool_99:

I perfectly understand your reasoning. But, there's a difference between a player that knows what to do and why (as our friend John Brumback does), and an instructor that knows how to diagnose root-level causes and how to fix them.

Have you ever read "The Legend of Henry Ford and the Mechanical Engineer"? It goes like this:

Henry's production line had come to a grinding halt. The in-house engineers were baffled -- unable to solve the problem. Meanwhile, Henry was aware each hour of downtime cost him dearly.

It soon became apparent he had no choice but to bring in outside help. And so a call went out to one of the country's leading mechanical engineers. Upon arrival, he walked from one end of the line to the other... stopping to listen every twenty feet or so.

He walked back to a point midway along the line. Focusing his attention on a metal plate, he withdrew from his pocket a piece of chalk with which he chalked an "X"... with a flourish.

Turning to Henry he remarked, "remove that plate and you'll find a broken gear assembly." Just what it turned out to be.

Henry thanked the outsider profusely, saying, "send me your bill, it's one I'll be glad to pay." Which is what the outsider did -- in the ammount of $500.00.

Henry was outraged and demanded an itemized invoice -- or he wouldn't pay. Several days later an envelope was delivered to Henry.

It contained a statement which read:

Chalk for chalkmark .................................................. $000.25
Knowing where to place chalkmark ..................................... $499.75
Total .................................................. ..............$500.00


Seeing the truth of the matter and realizing this individual was not to be trifled with, Henry paid the invoice.

The moral of the story? When it comes to making new technology work, it's what you know that counts.

121/500
What does this have to do with this thread? The fact is, an instructor is a "consultant" (the mechanical engineer, in this context), and not only knows how all the working parts work, but also what to look for when the machinery doesn't perform its job. The consultant (instructor) is much, *MUCH* better at this than even the shop foreman or the guys that are working that production line (the pro player, in this context).

While I do think that our friend John Brumback is much more akin to a consultant (precisely because he's been teaching on the side for a while, and has the seasoning of what to look for), you'll find that most pro players make lousy instructors. Sure, they'll be able to tell you what they do and why you should do it, but they can't tell you why it works, or they give you some cockamamy explanation. And, they won't be able to point out why your fundamentals/stance/cueing action is flawed; they'll just say "you need to do it like this" -- without any account as to the different body types and anatomical idiosyncracies people have. Yet, the average pool player so desperately wanting to get better gravitate to those with *ability* rather than those with knowledge.

In my field (information technology), you have those who just gravitate to those with ability, and ultimately find themselves in a career that consists of nothing more than doing maintenance or system administration. Then, you have those who gravitate to those with knowledge, and find themselves climbing higher on the ladder because they're equipped with the knowledge that grows and feeds into itself.

It's like the old adage about giving a man a fish or teaching him to fish.

-Sean
 

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I aint ever in my life seen one of them science guys that could play a lic. That should be a hint to some. John B.

I have an ol saying,it goes like this...."why your to durn smart to play good pool",hint hint.
Knowing all that ole shit will not help you to become a great pool player.Practice will,playing top players will and watching top players will..tho. But you can't be to smart
to learn,tho.

... the most important ingredients are heart ... determination ... & persistence. That's the shit that can't be taught - it can only be experienced.

All that other stuff will vary - it will be original to the individual - and it cannot be GENERALIZED or turned into a "one-stroke-fits-all" - or this is the correct way ...

Here is my teaching philosophy ...

You will learn more with a cue in your hand than you will with a book in your hand.

Your arm can be all over the place - but if the balls are dropping for you leave it the hell alone.

You can have perfect mechanics and still miss shots all day long - so I teach people how to be comfortable & how to feel natural in their own skin- in their own stance - and with their stroke ... as opposed to being uncomfortable and un-natural with all of that stuff. Players learn more when they are loose as opposed to being uptight - nervous and uncomfortable.

Personally, I learn more from watching - listening - and learning from players such as John Brumback. When someone has been to the top of the mountain (more than once) - it's best for me to sit back - open my ears - shut my mouth - and learn exactly how he got there. That is just my experience. Your experience may be different - and that's ok.
 
Yes, it is all good. Unlike what some on here want to propose, I am not bashing you or CJ. The ones saying that crap are the haters, not me. My point is simply that just because someone is good at doing something, does not automatically equate to them being able to even correctly describe just what they are doing. Efren is a perfect example of that. When asked about his pump stroke years ago, he didn't even realize he was doing it.

So, just because a pro says something, it does not mean that is should trump anything else said by anyone else. It should be given merit, and thought about, and then weighed against what known parameters are and then see if it has benefit. Sometimes what the pros say has great merit. Sometimes they really don't have a clue and are talking out their butts. Just because a pro says something, doesn't make it automatically true.

Likewise, just because someone hasn't spent countless hours practicing their technique, doesn't mean their technique has no merit. And, anyone that can't understand that, isn't worth listening to. (not talking about you there, John)

Nicely put Neil,you and I have always got along here so I'm good with ya. You just gave a perfect example about Efren....he does not think or care how or why he does what he does...he just does it.He's the best ever at rotation pool and onepocket.( he does not let all that crap enter his mind.That's what I keep preaching.Don't clog your mind with all that science crap,it will not help but only hurt. I'm bettin if you asked 100 pros what they do and how they do it...90 of them will not be able to tell ya. hint hint,they are the pros too,hint hint,lol John B.

PS: i have another saying..."your too smart to play good pool". Yes I'm dumb but I found out how to play pretty good pool,and it was not from a math or geometry book.
 
When you read certain threads on Azbilliards, books videos etc you will notice that certain things are recommended that deviate rather significantly from what the professional players do. Personally I feel like the correct way to teach is to teach the philosophy of the current top players (not one in particular but the average of them) from the very beginning.

1. Bridge length. Most pros today play with long bridges. Exceptions exist but are rare.

2. Elbow movement. Several pros if not nearly all have some degree of elbow drop. It is rare to see someone with an entirely fixed elbow.

3. Use no spin. Good as a training tool. But for playing? Isn't this handicapping yourself, especially in 9 and 10 ball? Watch Earl Strickland play and you'll know what I mean.

What are your thoughts on this? Should you try to emulate the pros from the beginning or learn an entirely different style and then change?

Sometimes you need to learn to crawl before you can walk. Some things take time and experience to learn and cannot be taught no matter how good the teacher is.

With side english comes complications. Some effects are way to subtle to even describe, but can have huge impacts on the shot outcome or even an intelligent shot selection. Things like stick weight, shaft type, cloth condition/age, rail rubber, rail age, tip brand, ball material, ball cleanlieness, cueing angle, stroke type, etc... can all have major effects when using english on different shots in different circumstances. You can't learn any of these english induced variables through lessons, only experience will help. To really be any good you have to know exactly what to expect without any of these variables so you know what to expect with them. Otherwise you'll never learn why the ball may do what it does, and you'll always just be guessing.
 
I believe Efren has stated that he got good at pool by copying the strokes of the best players in the room at his home town. This is a philosophy I use in Judo, and other areas of my life. However, I do not discount the wealth of knowledge and quality of professional instructors out there.
 
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... the most important ingredients are heart ... determination ... & persistence. That's the shit that can't be taught - it can only be experienced.

All that other stuff will vary - it will be original to the individual - and it cannot be GENERALIZED or turned into a "one-stroke-fits-all" - or this is the correct way ...

Here is my teaching philosophy ...

You will learn more with a cue in your hand than you will with a book in your hand.

Your arm can be all over the place - but if the balls are dropping for you leave it the hell alone.

You can have perfect mechanics and still miss shots all day long - so I teach people how to be comfortable & how to feel natural in their own skin- in their own stance - and with their stroke ... as opposed to being uncomfortable and un-natural with all of that stuff. Players learn more when they are loose as opposed to being uptight - nervous and uncomfortable.

Personally, I learn more from watching - listening - and learning from players such as John Brumback. When someone has been to the top of the mountain (more than once) - it's best for me to sit back - open my ears - shut my mouth - and learn exactly how he got there. That is just my experience. Your experience may be different - and that's ok.

Thanks BJ.That's how I try to teach also.I work with the person.I don't pull out my book or papers and just start going down the lines.Everyones different and you have to work with people different ways and on alot of different stuff,never really knowing what that might be. John B.
 
Another totally ignorant statement. "and unless someone can prove that another style is superior" Are you kidding me? Have you not read the thousands of testimonials on here of people improving after taking lessons from a qualified instructor? How they couldn't improve until they went to a qualified instructor, and then their game took off after years and decades of just watching and trying to emulate the pros and getting nowhere?

Usually i do not like harsh responses, but i am afraid, you really did a great job responding to the OP, and others.

The original poster and others ignored the tireless hours, and time to generate training books, and DVDs even though some might be very basic and are good.

Had the OP said, this book or that specifically maybe i will go along..
 
... the most important ingredients are heart ... determination ... & persistence. That's the shit that can't be taught - it can only be experienced.

All that other stuff will vary - it will be original to the individual - and it cannot be GENERALIZED or turned into a "one-stroke-fits-all" - or this is the correct way ...

Here is my teaching philosophy ...

You will learn more with a cue in your hand than you will with a book in your hand.

Your arm can be all over the place - but if the balls are dropping for you leave it the hell alone.

You can have perfect mechanics and still miss shots all day long - so I teach people how to be comfortable & how to feel natural in their own skin- in their own stance - and with their stroke ... as opposed to being uncomfortable and un-natural with all of that stuff. Players learn more when they are loose as opposed to being uptight - nervous and uncomfortable.

Personally, I learn more from watching - listening - and learning from players such as John Brumback. When someone has been to the top of the mountain (more than once) - it's best for me to sit back - open my ears - shut my mouth - and learn exactly how he got there. That is just my experience. Your experience may be different - and that's ok.


Sorry you guys are not right. What about Dr, Dave, he is the best that wrote and documented pool, his resources are really great, are you saying someone did not learn from Dr. Dave? Common now.
 
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