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Pool teaching philosophy
- Thread starter Straightpool_99
- Start date
Very funny! And that, btw, is the difference between hiring a real engineer, and someone with just a piece of paper on his wall. The law of attrition applies here -- the real ones will soon become apparent and be very much in demand, while the paper-toters will be hired by the blue-collars that don't know the difference, then later post retorts like these.
-Sean
doing and teaching
John,
I have to admit skipping a bunch of posts but you and Blackjack nailed things pretty thoroughly. What works for a pro ain't necessarily what will work for a student, likewise what is working for the student might be all wrong for most people. A stroke matters for about an inch, while the tip is in contact with the cue ball.
Some instructors, including some pro's, are teaching one thing and doing something entirely different. I have talked to some of the best in the world in several fields that have written how-to books or instructed many people. When talking to them one on one I have heard comments like, "I don't really know how I do it, I just wrote what I read in other books" or "What I do is instinctive, I can't teach that so I wrote what I can teach".
When I was watching circle track racing one of the things that amazed me is how in the world someone can run inches off of someone else's back bumper perfectly synchronized lap after lap without touching. Nobody was really able to tell me, "you just do it". After doing it myself, I still couldn't give instructions how to be in perfect harmony with the cars around you so sometimes over a dozen cars are moving as one. You just do it.
Never heard of him teaching although I think he helps many people a little in bits and pieces but I always suspected Efren would be one of the worst instructors in the world. You can't teach real magic.
Hu
John,
I have to admit skipping a bunch of posts but you and Blackjack nailed things pretty thoroughly. What works for a pro ain't necessarily what will work for a student, likewise what is working for the student might be all wrong for most people. A stroke matters for about an inch, while the tip is in contact with the cue ball.
Some instructors, including some pro's, are teaching one thing and doing something entirely different. I have talked to some of the best in the world in several fields that have written how-to books or instructed many people. When talking to them one on one I have heard comments like, "I don't really know how I do it, I just wrote what I read in other books" or "What I do is instinctive, I can't teach that so I wrote what I can teach".
When I was watching circle track racing one of the things that amazed me is how in the world someone can run inches off of someone else's back bumper perfectly synchronized lap after lap without touching. Nobody was really able to tell me, "you just do it". After doing it myself, I still couldn't give instructions how to be in perfect harmony with the cars around you so sometimes over a dozen cars are moving as one. You just do it.
Never heard of him teaching although I think he helps many people a little in bits and pieces but I always suspected Efren would be one of the worst instructors in the world. You can't teach real magic.
Hu
Instructors instruct. Players play. Some players are instructors. Some instructors are players. Not all players are instructors. Not all instructors are players.
Quit trying to look bigger/better by dragging down others. Their expertise or lack of expertise will show itself in plenty of time.
/end rant
There is a time when a player has to learn how to do what it is he wants to do. Once he learns it then he need only to perform and enjoy the fruits of his labors!
Just my $.02
Ken
Quit trying to look bigger/better by dragging down others. Their expertise or lack of expertise will show itself in plenty of time.
/end rant
There is a time when a player has to learn how to do what it is he wants to do. Once he learns it then he need only to perform and enjoy the fruits of his labors!
Just my $.02
Ken
No offense to instructors but when I watch the top pros most of them didn't learn from an instructor. They learned from playing a ton of pool and adjusted to what worked best for them.
Snooker is different. The Brits all look like clones but Americans, Filipinos and others are mostly self taught.
Snooker is different. The Brits all look like clones but Americans, Filipinos and others are mostly self taught.
Hey I know that guy!! aint smart enough to come in out of the rain tho,lol .."common sense aint so common anymore' that was great,haha thanks,John B.
I try to learn from practicing VEPS and VEPP by Dr Dave. My game has improved and I feel more confident when playing against other players.
I also watch a lot of YouTube videos of pool matches and some live streaming from this website.
I believe more could be learned from the commentators giving insight into what the players are doing and how they're doing it. Instead you hear alot of chatter and no good commentary from the announcer.
And, as a person who travels for work I spend my off ours looking for a good pool hall. There are times when ill find someone to play against and that helps my competitive edge, as does playing in a pool league.
I also watch a lot of YouTube videos of pool matches and some live streaming from this website.
I believe more could be learned from the commentators giving insight into what the players are doing and how they're doing it. Instead you hear alot of chatter and no good commentary from the announcer.
And, as a person who travels for work I spend my off ours looking for a good pool hall. There are times when ill find someone to play against and that helps my competitive edge, as does playing in a pool league.
Yeah, it's sad there are people like that. That story's obviously exaggerated to trivialize the knowledge point to slant it towards the experience point, but man, I encounter folks like that every day. There's that loss of touch with reality and practicality.
Getting back on track, though, I think you're a great instructor, John. Have your DVD, and it's a "go-to" reference for banking that'd made a difference in my game. Definitely a recommended resource.
The point of my Henry Ford post was there's a difference between going to someone "merely" because they can execute, and going to someone who has the knowledge (or is trained/experienced to know what to look for, as you are). Mere execution is not the indicator of knowledge impartation. Having training in (or experience in) instruction is.
Keep knockin' the dust off the back of those pockets, John!
-Sean
My philosophy:
-I give someone with great accomplishments more initial merit than someone without those accomplishments.
-I don't dismiss what ever someone has to say just because they don't have "accomplishments".
-I weigh what has been stated against what I already know. Always willing to admit that what I knew before may not have been right at all.
-I don't believe what someone says just because they have accomplishments. Likewise, as stated above, I don't dismiss what someone has to say just because they don't have accomplishments.
-I take what ever someone says, and see how that can relate to what I already know and how it can improve me. Sometimes, what they say is actually wrong, but the key principle behind what they say has great merit.
-Just because someone is great at what they do, does not mean that they aren't an idiot. And just because someone is poor at doing something, does not mean that they don't have great insight into how to do it.
-Some of the best gems on playing pool that I have ever received were by a few people that probably have never played a single rack of pool.
-Pool is not rocket science. There are not many scientific principles that apply. Knowing those principles can open a whole new world, eliminate a lot of nonsense, and shorten the learning curve dramatically. EVERYONE uses those principles to play, without exception. Knowing them just makes it easier. One seldom uses them consciously while playing (some kicking systems are the exception), but rather uses them with the subconscious. (if I want to follow, I don't have to consciously think to hit the cb above center, I just do it) The biggest hurdles are mental, as Blackjack stated. (see the gem right above this part)
-Anyone that takes whatever a pro says as gospel is a fool.
-Anyone that thinks they can't learn anything from someone that isn't a pro is a fool.
(for those that don't know it, Efren became the "magician" by learning from bangers. He would watch them screw up a shot, and then spend the time to learn how to duplicate the results they got. In other words, the "scientific" method- this does this, I just need to learn what "this" is, [knowledge] and then I can incorporate it into my own game.)
As a side note, it seems some on here have a very misguided notion on just what it is that instructors actually teach. No instructor worth his salt ever teaches that there is only one way to do things, or even that one has to have "textbook" fundamentals. So, before one goes knocking what instructors teach, one should first find out just what that is.
-I give someone with great accomplishments more initial merit than someone without those accomplishments.
-I don't dismiss what ever someone has to say just because they don't have "accomplishments".
-I weigh what has been stated against what I already know. Always willing to admit that what I knew before may not have been right at all.
-I don't believe what someone says just because they have accomplishments. Likewise, as stated above, I don't dismiss what someone has to say just because they don't have accomplishments.
-I take what ever someone says, and see how that can relate to what I already know and how it can improve me. Sometimes, what they say is actually wrong, but the key principle behind what they say has great merit.
-Just because someone is great at what they do, does not mean that they aren't an idiot. And just because someone is poor at doing something, does not mean that they don't have great insight into how to do it.
-Some of the best gems on playing pool that I have ever received were by a few people that probably have never played a single rack of pool.
-Pool is not rocket science. There are not many scientific principles that apply. Knowing those principles can open a whole new world, eliminate a lot of nonsense, and shorten the learning curve dramatically. EVERYONE uses those principles to play, without exception. Knowing them just makes it easier. One seldom uses them consciously while playing (some kicking systems are the exception), but rather uses them with the subconscious. (if I want to follow, I don't have to consciously think to hit the cb above center, I just do it) The biggest hurdles are mental, as Blackjack stated. (see the gem right above this part)
-Anyone that takes whatever a pro says as gospel is a fool.
-Anyone that thinks they can't learn anything from someone that isn't a pro is a fool.
(for those that don't know it, Efren became the "magician" by learning from bangers. He would watch them screw up a shot, and then spend the time to learn how to duplicate the results they got. In other words, the "scientific" method- this does this, I just need to learn what "this" is, [knowledge] and then I can incorporate it into my own game.)
As a side note, it seems some on here have a very misguided notion on just what it is that instructors actually teach. No instructor worth his salt ever teaches that there is only one way to do things, or even that one has to have "textbook" fundamentals. So, before one goes knocking what instructors teach, one should first find out just what that is.
I have a saying ...I can't play with you, you miss too much
To me the problem is too many people instructing and writing books making the game seem so complicated., It almost seems they want others to think how genius they are The game is not that hard to learn, it's rather fairly simple
As far as learning to play by watching and playing pros ( BULLCRAP)
You have a better shot at hitting the sun with a snowball.
Most people are too busy watching the ball go in the pocket, it's like watching tennis, their head moves like a bobblehead, just slower. They call their MAMA and tell her, I just saw Shane run 10 racks, and learned nothing but saw 100 balls drop in the pockets.
They have no clue what to look for or why, if you want to learn patterns from watching pros ( good luck with that )....everyone plays things differently.
Just listen to the so called greatest commentators who have pro experience, how many times they are wrong. Use your own brain
Playing pros or players who are much better does not help your arm and stroke get better, how can it? all it does is racks for him to break and run out.
MAMA Shane ran 10 racks on me,,,IT WAS A BLUR, I shot 3 times, I was safe all 3 times ....How does that work out for your stroke? What you learned was bring visine because the blur irritated your eyes
I am not saying to not play levels up, not too far up, if you do, learn what to look for, or else go play checkers.
You want to improve? Practice until your fingers bleed, take in as much info as you can, use some of it, throw some away, listen and learn.
There is no substitute for repetition, and it definitely helps if you are doing things the right way, or a better way, do what works for you. Anyone can learn to play at high levels with bad habits, why would you? if you can learn good habits, secrets, how to use repeatable motions, sighting, control all aspects of the 4 strokes, etc. etc.
You want to learn pool? Learn to control the cue ball, anywhere, anytime,
Play 3 cushion billiards, that will show you exactly how much you don't know about the cue ball.
Sorry, I just bored myself to death...haha
To me the problem is too many people instructing and writing books making the game seem so complicated., It almost seems they want others to think how genius they are The game is not that hard to learn, it's rather fairly simple
As far as learning to play by watching and playing pros ( BULLCRAP)
You have a better shot at hitting the sun with a snowball.
Most people are too busy watching the ball go in the pocket, it's like watching tennis, their head moves like a bobblehead, just slower. They call their MAMA and tell her, I just saw Shane run 10 racks, and learned nothing but saw 100 balls drop in the pockets.
They have no clue what to look for or why, if you want to learn patterns from watching pros ( good luck with that )....everyone plays things differently.
Just listen to the so called greatest commentators who have pro experience, how many times they are wrong. Use your own brain
Playing pros or players who are much better does not help your arm and stroke get better, how can it? all it does is racks for him to break and run out.
MAMA Shane ran 10 racks on me,,,IT WAS A BLUR, I shot 3 times, I was safe all 3 times ....How does that work out for your stroke? What you learned was bring visine because the blur irritated your eyes
I am not saying to not play levels up, not too far up, if you do, learn what to look for, or else go play checkers.
You want to improve? Practice until your fingers bleed, take in as much info as you can, use some of it, throw some away, listen and learn.
There is no substitute for repetition, and it definitely helps if you are doing things the right way, or a better way, do what works for you. Anyone can learn to play at high levels with bad habits, why would you? if you can learn good habits, secrets, how to use repeatable motions, sighting, control all aspects of the 4 strokes, etc. etc.
You want to learn pool? Learn to control the cue ball, anywhere, anytime,
Play 3 cushion billiards, that will show you exactly how much you don't know about the cue ball.
Sorry, I just bored myself to death...haha
Oh I get the moral to the story Sean and it was a good one!! I fully understand where your coming from,bud. And thanks for the good words! There are good players that are good teachers and I'm sure there is some that are not good players but can teach. Thanks for your time. John B.
Exactly, Neil! It's unfortunate that there are so many misguided notions about instructors that instruct for a living.
Folks seem to think:
1. That the instructor will "cookie-cutter me" into his ideal template, a template which won't work for me and will ruin my game.
2. That the instructor can't play on the level of SVB, therefore he has little to offer me.
3. My personal favorite, "Who would you rather go to? The guy who can? Or the guy who can't but teaches that he can?"
4. "I once took a lesson from guy that called himself an instructor, and it was the WORST experience I ever had, so therefore all instructors and instruction itself from non-pro-players suck."
There's probably a Sun Tzu / Art-of-War expression that fits here, but the basic tenet is to know what something is about before you form an opinion about it or engage it. Sadly, those that've never had a lesson from a quality instructor have no idea what they're bad-mouthing.
-Sean
I know right,it's knockin round balls in holes with a wooden stick:wink: John B.
I think it's only a matter of time before a new generation of pros, that grew up reading books like mark Wilson's and getting SPF instruction take over the game.
Just imagine if some of today's pros that had the dedication and put in the time had these kinds of resources when they were learning...
Just imagine if some of today's pros that had the dedication and put in the time had these kinds of resources when they were learning...
First off, welcome back Blackjack.
Some good info there...
I would like to add, it may be obvious to those who can play well and also have some knowledge of pool, "watching good players only helps if you understand what they are doing".
If you watch good players and you see the cue ball come of a cushion a certain way, left or right, do you knopw why it does that?
So...that said, I agree with John B. and Neil, I think if they both sat down and discussed pool, they would probably agree on more than they think. I've read many posts by both guys and they are both knowledgable pool players.
OK, keep on goin guys :grin:
Haha,thanks a bunch.and you know what..you make a good point about watching pros play and maybe how the cball reacts and stuff like that ( it would be hard learn that by watching) ( unless they watch how they are cueing).However, they can for sure watch their fundamentals and how they stroke the balls and how the hell they make a good bridge!! lol But most don't or will not. John B.
PS: pros don't do it the way they do just for the heck of it. this is just a tip for the other ones.
As an advanced player, this is exactly what I do.
I've been watching your latest dvd for the last few weeks. It is mainly you and Jim Griffith playing some short racks. I've picked up a few moves and a few different strokes by watching it. I also picked up some tips from CJ's system.
I feel my bank game is good enough to break and run at any time, but watching the best always teaches me new things.
Best,
Mike
I like Mark Wilson's philosophy of teaching. The ability to hit the cue ball accurately during the stroking process is what separate the levels of play at it's core. Most top players have used the HAMB method to gain this accuracy. But what if these same players would have developed a more orthodox method of playing pool? They might even be better than they are now.
The value of learning an orthodox approach to the game is the efficient use of time versus the HAMB method. Students that have limited time can improve much faster using orthodox methods. Plus, their ceiling as a player is higher.
The value of learning an orthodox approach to the game is the efficient use of time versus the HAMB method. Students that have limited time can improve much faster using orthodox methods. Plus, their ceiling as a player is higher.
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The unfortunate reality is the time and practice are the only real tools one has to get better. Lessons can help gain some knowledge here and there (so can books) but actual time at the table practicing (not just banging balls around) is what it takes to become a player. The bad news is the game is so overly complicated and intricate that for a normal human (one that doesn't have 8 free hours a day to do nothing but practice) at least 10 years is required to even start to become competant. And after 20 you'll start to actually be "good" (sort of).
And to the people that just play with friends and never play outside of league, well sorry to say that's not enough to ever become good.
And to the people that just play with friends and never play outside of league, well sorry to say that's not enough to ever become good.