Poolhall Prices- Hurting Pool?

Blackjack said:
I am facing the same problems as ajrack. My rent is $3100 + tax, which brings it up to $3800 a month. Add in insurance, utilities, payroll and other expenses, it is imperative that I make money. Most of the money comes from beer/beverage sales - not pool rates. I currently have a $3.00 flat rate during the day, and its $4.00 an hour per person after 6PM - $5.00 and hour on the "good" tables. I FREE POOL on Tuesday nights - and Thursday is ladie's night and they play for free. I believe that I have the most affordable rates in the city. During the slow times I try to invent ways to bring people in so that I can make money to cover those bills. Why should I "give big discounts" when its slow? When the place is packed, I offer half price drink specials - because I can afford to do it. Asking a room owner to offer discounts during slow periods makes no sense. If you want the proces to go down, then the rooms need your busines - as in YOU spending YOUR money. When that happens, the room owner is given breathing room and we can discount tables rates and drink prices.
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So we have:
$4000.00 +
$4800.00 (labor 16 x $10.00 x 30)
$1000.00 (incidentals)
-----------------------
$10,000.00 a month before you pay yourself.

Now at a Profit Margin of say 30% you need to generate 33K of sales before you stick a penny in your jeans. Before someone starts about ....he can do the work himself and not pay a counterman...he can work elsewhere with no headaches for that.

$1,100.00 a day in July just to keep afloat. Owning a small room today is tough. No wonder Disneyland charges so much for their food. They just can't make it alone on the ticket price. :eek:

Nick
 
Pool Hall Prices

Look at the time of the day and whether you have any empy tables. If nobody is on a table, then they are not spending any money and that table is not generating any money at that time of the day.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
Right, I forgot you think that pool is in a "golden age". LOL.With more people playing pool today than just about any time in history, Yeah, I think we are in a very good time for pool How many APA SL 2's did you get to shell out a few hundred bucks for lessons this month? I don't think you really want an answer to this question, I guess it's just a dig at me for being an instructor. But the fact of the matter is that my students generally pay me less than many pay for a pool cue. And they get something that will help them become better players. So far, every one of them has felt it was time and money well spent.Pool might be in a golden age for YOU, but the game itself isn't, and this seems to be agreed upon by every other pool player but YOU and a few key others perhaps. I guess that is really a matter of opinion. The pool rooms around here are generally doing very well. Most have a full house and a waiting list on the weekends, and are full of league matches every night during the week.

Oh, and by the way. Golf is generally (and stereotypically) played by what economic class? Well, around here golfers are doctors, lawyers, teachers, pool room owners, pool players, truck drivers, construction workers, and just about any economic class you can imagine. And what is it that this particular economic class has much more of than the economic classes below it? And the average full time pool player is of what economic class? I don't know too many "average full time pool players. Most pool players do it for recreation and fun. Same reason I play golf. It sure isn't to make a living!!!! I'm not that good. But I do have fun playing both games.

And yes you are correct about golf, but I thought it was obvious my question was a rhetorical one.
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I thought your question was pretty straightforward, and was my reply.
Steve
 
powderburner said:
Blackjack, where is your poolhall? I'd like to stop in next time I'm in El Paso.
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Montana Billiards
(Under new management that used to be the old management)
4816 Montana
El Paso Texas

Take I-10 to the Raynolds exit - take Raynolds to Montana - big Red sign out front - I'm inside from noon to closing almost every day. I'd be glad to meet you.
 
Nick B said:
So we have:
$4000.00 +
$4800.00 (labor 16 x $10.00 x 30)
$1000.00 (incidentals)
-----------------------
$10,000.00 a month before you pay yourself.

Now at a Profit Margin of say 30% you need to generate 33K of sales before you stick a penny in your jeans. Before someone starts about ....he can do the work himself and not pay a counterman...he can work elsewhere with no headaches for that.

$1,100.00 a day in July just to keep afloat. Owning a small room today is tough. No wonder Disneyland charges so much for their food. They just can't make it alone on the ticket price. :eek:

Nick
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your math doesn't sound right. if your cost is $10,000 per month, then doing $20,000 in sales is already 50% profit margin.

anyway, the place I play at is $4 per table everyday from opening till 6PM. From 6pm till closing, it goes up to $12/hr, and $15/hr on friday and saturday nights. AFAIK it doesn't matter how many of you guys play on the table (well I usually just play with one other person) They've got VIP rooms at I think $30 per hour, then nights would be $60. There's also a package that you'd rent a VIP room for $200 or 300 for 2 hours, up to 10 person can play (or was it 20), includes food and free beer (I was told the beer was unlimited. Not sure bout food though)
 
Forgot how lucky I am. Been playing at a pool hall that switched to a $3 entry fee and then you must purchase a few drinks through the match. Been going there for years and they tell me the real money they make is off gambling machines they have near their bar. Works for me as a 5 hour game costs about $15!
 
I must have it lucky. Even though many pool halls closed up in my area over the past 3 years, the ones that do remain still only charge 5.00-7.00/hour for 1-2 players. Nice rooms, nice equipment, basic snacks and beverages. And if you become a regular at the one place, he will discount your total at the register as long as you don't go blabbing to others. Nice perk. Now the prices in Atlanta when I lived there a few years ago. Ohh my... They knew they could get the high rates so they charged them. Up here in Ohio, no chance on the high rates.

ez
 
pooltchr said:
I thought your question was pretty straightforward, and was my reply.
Steve
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Actually it wasn't a dig at you being an instructor. It was a dig at your viewpoint that pool is doing well, just because you are a successful instructor that has alot of clients (from what you suggested).

It's kind of like a rich man living at the top of a mountain overlooking a city that is poor, and since the rich man is doing well, he says that the city is doing well economically. I was trying to imply that it seems like you have a clouded view of pool in general.

Like you said, more people play pool than ever before. Lets not forget the world also has a much, much, larger population than it has ever had before.

You could even go out on a limb and talk about how many people are in pool leagues, like the APA or the BCA for example. In the BCA pool leagues, there are hundreds of teams that compete in Vegas in May. It costs $1 per game per table. Now if you do the math, with all the matches being played, and those thousands of people pumping in $1 for every game, the long races, and the payouts for 1st place and down, the profit that the BCA is making on that event alone is just sick. So rather than saying that pool is in it's golden age because of the amount of players in the BCA, it makes much more sense to say that the BCA is in it's golden age because of the amount of players it feeds off of. (Don't get me wrong, I love going to Vegas in May for that, but I do think the payouts should be alot higher).

My point here is that just because leagues and instructors are doing quite well, doesn't mean that the sport in general is doing well. Pooltchr, if you talked to the majority of professional pool players and asked them how the sport is doing, it would be a landslide in how many of them disagree with your opinion of it.

And to everyone who thinks I am complaining about poolhall prices, I was just asking a question and making an observation. Seriously, do you people read posts or do you just skim thru them? LOL come on now....
 
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I don't think pool has ever been in an era where more than a handfull of players could make a good living playing the game full time. I wish it were different, but there just isn't any money in the game. There are maybe a half a dozen women on the WPBA and, let's be real generous here, maybe 50 male players who could support a family on what they make playing pool.

Pool room rates, which is the main subject of this thread, are really not that bad. Yes, some rooms charge more than others, but if they are priced too high, the players won't be there, and they either have to lower rates or close. The rooms where I go seem to be filled with people from all different economic circles. Some wouldn't bat an eye at $8 per hour while others find it a stretch to pay $3 per hour. But they still seem to find a way to get their table time.

I actually looked into opening a pool room, but when I put together a business plan, I didn't see it as a good investment. As other owners have pointed out, with rent, payroll, utilities, upkeep, etc, it takes a lot of customers spending a lot of time and money to make a room profitable. And profit is the only thing that keeps any business operating.

There are a lot of factors that keep pool from evolving into a sport like golf, with big paydays for the pros, but I don't think table rates are holding the game back. There are still plenty of players who pay for table time on a regular basis.

I really don't know what the answer is, but lowering table rates doesn't seem to be it. That would simply cause a lot of pool rooms to go out of business. Now THAT would be something that would hurt the game.

Steve
 
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Pool is pretty cheap down here on the gulf coast of Florida. Most places charge $2 to $2.50 per hour during the afternoon, with all day specials, from opening to 7 PM, for $5.

Recently, a new place opened up with all new Diamond tables. Billing his place as an upscale poolroom, the owner started off charging $3.60 per hour in the afternoon and $7 for all day. He built it but people did not come. Within a week he was forced to lower his rates. :)
 
Our rooms charge $5.00-$7.00 per hour, but they all have discounts for league players, ranging from 1/2 price to FREE at certain times of the week. I think they just try to get bodies in the door, hoping they will spend their money on the other things available, food, drinks, etc.

Mike
 
pooltchr said:
I don't think pool has ever been in an era where more than a handfull of players could make a good living playing the game full time. I wish it were different, but there just isn't any money in the game. There are maybe a half a dozen women on the WPBA and, let's be real generous here, maybe 50 male players who could support a family on what they make playing pool.

Pool room rates, which is the main subject of this thread, are really not that bad. Yes, some rooms charge more than others, but if they are priced too high, the players won't be there, and they either have to lower rates or close. The rooms where I go seem to be filled with people from all different economic circles. Some wouldn't bat an eye at $8 per hour while others find it a stretch to pay $3 per hour. But they still seem to find a way to get their table time.

I actually looked into opening a pool room, but when I put together a business plan, I didn't see it as a good investment. As other owners have pointed out, with rent, payroll, utilities, upkeep, etc, it takes a lot of customers spending a lot of time and money to make a room profitable. And profit is the only thing that keeps any business operating.

There are a lot of factors that keep pool from evolving into a sport like golf, with big paydays for the pros, but I don't think table rates are holding the game back. There are still plenty of players who pay for table time on a regular basis.

I really don't know what the answer is, but lowering table rates doesn't seem to be it. That would simply cause a lot of pool rooms to go out of business. Now THAT would be something that would hurt the game.

Steve
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Good post Steve.

I was actually wondering if any poolhalls have experimented with lowering rates. Not to something ridiculous, like $2 an hour, but lets say a room that sells beer and hard liquor, their table rates are $9 per hour for 2 players. Lower the rates to like $6 per hour. The plan is to try it for 2 or 3 months (which should be enough time to see if it has highered or lowered revenue), and to have enough money to take a hit if it doesnt work, and see if it inreases their revenue. If it does, they stay with it, if it fails, they go back to normal or try something else. The 80-20 figure here would not be effected, because obviously the 20% of regulars who contribute 80% of the business are gonna stick around if a room lowers their rates.

The room could do some small advertising about the cheap rates, and perhaps do some specials on a free drink for your first hour of pool, etc. Doing drink specials are usually a good idea from what I've seen, because people have a tendency to stay longer and drink more once they get a little buzz going. I was just wondering if anyone knows of poolhalls that have experimented with lowering their rates and having some special deals.

Obviously the idea is that cheaper prices/deals should = more customers, which hopefully would surpass the average income the poolhall makes with regular rates. If it were wildly successful, a smart room owner would invest in making the room a real nice place, totally different than other poolrooms to prevent potential regulars from floating around to other poolhalls within the radius of a few miles. Anyone know if this idea has had alot of success/failures?
 
Playing for the time these days can be BIG action in some joints, When I retired in 94 seems like I was paying $5/hr in Vegas and $8 at hollywood billiards the down stairs one that was closed after the earthquake in 94, and $10 or $15 at Hollywood Althetic Club(fancy joint). I was just in Munich got home a few hours ago and it was 10 euro's/hr to play thats $13.20 good equipment, but no players hell no one there could make 3 balls in a row.
 
Blackjack said:
I am facing the same problems as ajrack. My rent is $3100 + tax, which brings it up to $3800 a month. Add in insurance, utilities, payroll and other expenses, it is imperative that I make money. Most of the money comes from beer/beverage sales - not pool rates. I currently have a $3.00 flat rate during the day, and its $4.00 an hour per person after 6PM - $5.00 and hour on the "good" tables. I FREE POOL on Tuesday nights - and Thursday is ladie's night and they play for free. I believe that I have the most affordable rates in the city. During the slow times I try to invent ways to bring people in so that I can make money to cover those bills. Why should I "give big discounts" when its slow? When the place is packed, I offer half price drink specials - because I can afford to do it. Asking a room owner to offer discounts during slow periods makes no sense. If you want the proces to go down, then the rooms need your busines - as in YOU spending YOUR money. When that happens, the room owner is given breathing room and we can discount tables rates and drink prices.
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I think you have some good ideas going.

The best example I can give as to how to run a pool hall comes from my experience in playing at the Magic Cue in Germantown.

On busy nights, they DID NOT give pool discounts, contrary to what you are doing. These busy nights were league nights - Tues and Thurs. (beer and cheesburgers 1/2 price all night long to APA members - a discount however) - and Friday and Saturday nights for the 'other' customers with dates etc.

On Mondays, Weds, and Sundays NOTHING happened.

So on Mon and Wed they gave 3 hours of pool for $10. People flocked in there. This is what I meant by giving big discounts in non-peak times. The Magic Cue made it up in food and alcohol sales bigtime.

On Sundays, they started having tournaments in the afternoon from 3 til around 7. The whole back room - say 15 tables, was given to the paying tournament customers for four hours. They gave away free trips (each week!) to exotic places to the tournament winner by working some kind of deal with a travel agency. At one time I remember counting at least 100 people floating around in this room, most of them playing in the tournament. The Magic Cue spotted some prize money. So one paid $15 for 4 hours of pool, a great time, and a possibility of winning some money. BTW, these players were mostly APA type players. No pros. 8 ball doubles.

On some Sundays they would do special things like have a wet tee shirt contest out back on the putt putt golf course. Cheap kegged beer. Hundreds of people would flock in.

The manager asked me to help with the books and I can say the business they did a month was unbelievable.

Then disaster struck. The Vietnamese doctors/owners got wind of how much the manager was paying himself and his son, so they fired him and took over.

No discounts on food. No discounts on pool. The freaking hamburgers went from high quality to dog meat. No tournaments. You get the picture.

Business dropped 80% and went bankrupt.

So my only advice to you as a pool hall owner is to be creative. You have to make the customers believe that coming to your place EVERY day and every night is a good thing. You need business volume to boost your profit, IMHO. Of course you may be in a rotten area. God how I miss the Magic Cue. :D
 
Where I play I pay $ 3 per hour to play by myself during the day or $ 6 per hour if there are two or more players on the table. At night I pay $ 6 per hour to play by myself or $ 12 per hour if there are two or more players on the table. Seems reasonable to me. They also have free pool on Mondays and if you play the Sunday night 9-ball tourney there is free practice for two hours before it starts. The place is kept really nice so I am happy to pay what I do vs. hitting some of the places with cheaper deals that are a bit rougher.
 
I think that most "real pool halls" that I have and do play in are reasonably priced. From $ 5,6,7,8 an hour per player is cheap entertainment. Most pool room owners just make enough to get by. Actually I think when you can go out and have a great time for this kind of money it's a real bargain. I have no complaints.
 
RiverCity said:
what happened to making money off the food and bar and letting the table time be the loss leader?
Chuck
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I think a lot of the more serious recreational players don't drink like a lot of the old timers did, so if the table time was too cheap, the owner would lose money. I know very little drinking goes on at the local USPPA & NPL tournaments.

Ken
 
Time to face reality

I think the poolroom owners have to be realistic. Times have changed and the old style poolroom is going to have a very difficult time making it. As the public’s demands change, so does the business. Adapt or fold.

A few facts that people need to accept.

1. Pool halls need alcohol. This is a chance for a high markup and it brings more people in, or at least doesn’t drive people away because they would like to have a drink or two while they shoot.
2. Pool halls need to offer food, even if it is just some finger food and little frozen pizzas.
3. Pool halls can’t make it off of table time alone.
4. Pool halls need to have a shop. Must offer at least cues for sale, accessories and retipping if not more services. Can you really call yourself a pool hall if no one there knows how to put a tip on?
5. Pool halls need to offer other things to do. Dart boards, golden tee, shuffleboard, mega touch machines, etc. This gives the casual player a change of pace if they would like one. Or everyone in a group can have something that they like to do.
6. Pool halls need to charge for the table time, not the time per person at the table. Is more than one person shooting at exactly the same time? The table will be used the same amount whether 2 people are playing or 6. The casual player does not want to pay for the time they are not actually shooting. If you want to offer a discount for one person, great, but for 2 or more people table time should be exactly what it sounds like, $ for the amount of time the table is in use. You also want groups instead of discouraging them because more people equals more food and drinks sold.
7. Perks for the regulars are nice if you want to keep customers. Even if it is just a random thing, free hour, free drink, free food, just here and there.
8. Hot bartender never hurts either. LOL


Kind of sounds like a sports bar doesn’t it? That is the reality of it. You can focus on pool but you better offer more than just that if you want to make any money. Everyone says that pool players are cheap, so why does everyone focus on only bringing serious pool players in the door? You have to have the people that just want to have some fun for a few hours with some friends, they will spend money, but they want options not just pool with some soda to drink.

Sorry if this makes me unpopular but I don’t feel too sorry for the owners that open a new place and only offer pool, soda and chips, and then wonder why they are struggling. Well I would like to start manufacturing horse and buggies. How do you think my business is going to do? What? No market for horse and buggies anymore? I don’t believe it because the market used to be huge. Are you guys going to feel sorry for the industry or me when my horse and buggy business folds in a year or are you going to say WHAT DID YOU EXPECT? If you are going to open a poolroom you better open your eyes and face reality. You have to give customers what they want or they will go somewhere else. It is Basic Business 101.

Looks like Manwon's place has met the public's demands pretty well. He wouldn't make it either without all the extras that he offers. Hope I get the chance sometime to check it out sometime.

For older, established pool halls I understand that these decisions can be much more difficult. But it is still the basic rules of business. Adapt to demand or offer something unique and find a niche. Otherwise the clock is probably ticking.

Just my 2 cents.

Nathan
 
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