Poolology: Zone B backcut Quater Increment Scale

[7stud]

I'm a Poolology beginner. Here's the shot:

At first, when calculating the fractional aim point I was mixing up degrees and fractional cuts, like 30/100, which is not 30 degrees! Now, I realize you should never even think the word "degrees" when you are figuring out the fractional cut. Nor should you ever be converting between, say, a 1/4 ball hit and 49 degrees when doing your mental calculations.

The way I am calculating things now is, for example in the shot above, the "overhang" is 25/30, so the "overlap" is 5/30. Then, in my head I convert 5/30 to 100ths, so I have to figure out what to multiply the denominator by to get 100. So 3.5 x 30 = 105 (so the multiplier is a little less than 3.5) and 3.5 times the numerator, 5, is 17.5, so a little less than that, and I guesstimate 16, so 16/100 is the "overlap". Next, I compare that to the nearest quarter ball hit, 3/4 = 75/100, 1/2 = 50/100, and 1/4 = 25/100, so for this shot 16/100 is close to 25/100, which means the proper fractional aim point has less overlap than a 1/4 ball cut, i.e. 16/100 is a thinner cut than a 1/4=25/100 ball hit. I also know by memorization that 1/8 = 12.5/100 , and 1/4=25/100 - 1/8=12.5/100 = 12.5/100, so the proper fractional aim point, 16/100, is in between a 1/4 ball cut (25/100) and an 1/8 ball cut(12.5/100). I can aim slightly thicker than an 1/8 ball cut or conversely a little thinner than a 1/4 ball cut. I can do the above calculations pretty quickly in my head, but I want to start trying to figure out the Quarter Increments Scale for each shot to see if that is faster for me.

In any case, is this the proper Quarter Increments Scale for this particular Zone B back cut?

I had a little trouble with the Quarter Increment Scale for this shot because for Zone A shots the "object ball position line" intersects the long rail, where the Quarter Increment Scale is positioned, while for this shot "the object ball position line" does not intersect the long rail.

I just thought I would add: when I started reading the Poolology ebook, I thought, "Way too complicated! I'll never be able to memorize the different diamond numbers for each of the three zones and remember all those object ball position lines. And, I can't even figure out how the Zone C lines are drawn??!" But I was curious enough to start with Zone A and try some shots. And, now I've tried shots in each of the three zones, and I can remember the diamond numbers and object ball position lines pretty easily. Reading the Zone C specific section helped me figure out how to draw the object ball position lines for Zone C, however I had to make some assumptions. Can anyone provide a detailed description for how to draw the 40 and 60 object ball position lines in Zone C? This may be the way the 60 line in Zone C is drawn:

I think the 60 line in Zone C might run from the bottom side pocket virtual diamond to the left short rail virtual diamond marked by the crossing lines in the diagram above. The left short rail virtual diamond is found by:

1. Extending the line of the nose cushion on the top long rail through the top left corner pocket.
2. Extending the line of the diamonds on the left short rail through the top left corner pocket.

Where those lines intersect is the position of the virtual diamond. I read a Dr. Dave article a while ago where he discussed where the virtual diamonds are located on the corner pockets, and I thought Poolology might be using one of those virtual diamonds. Is that the correct way to draw the 60 line in Zone C according to Poolology?

One thing I notice that I am doing differently with Poolology aiming is: I don't even look at the OB in relation to the pocket when I am down on the shot. My normal aiming method is to get a rough aim point while standing during my PSR, then when I get down on the shot, I do some fine tuning to find something that feels right as I look back and forth from the OB to the pocket. Next, I adjust one way or the other to see if it feels wrong--in an effort to confirm the aim point that feels right. Using Poolology, I calculate my fractional aim point while standing, then when I get down on the shot, I am singly focused on how to hit the calculated aim point, and I don't look back and forth between the OB and the pocket. I'm wondering if that is a bad way to use Poolology because not looking back and forth between the OB and the pocket means my brain is not getting to feel what the proper cut is for a variety of shots.

I am finding Poolology pretty helpful for side of the rack 14.1 break shots, which are simple Zone A shots (object ball position less than 25). I'm a 14.1 beginner, and I start every rack with a side of the rack break shot, and I find I'm not very consistent at sinking the break ball--I just don't have a very good feel for back cuts into the corner pocket. Poolology seems to be helping. For instance:

The object ball position is 15, and the line formed by the CB and OB points to 10 on the end rail, so the "overhang" is 10/15 or 2/3, which makes the "overlap" 1/3, which is 33/100. Comparing 1/3=33/100 to a 1/4 ball hit = 25/100, you can see that a 1/3 cut is slightly thicker than a 1/4 ball cut shot--but not a full 1/8=12.5/100 thicker.

 

[BC21]

Too much math thinking going on... just simply use the ob position value (30 for this shot), then divide that in half. 15. So if the alignment line from center to center points to 15 it's a halfball shot. If it points to 7 or 8 it's a 3/4 ball shot. And if it points to 22 to 23 it's a 1/4 ball shot. Fine tune the shots and any in-betweens by simply aiming a quarter of a ferrule thinner or thicker, based on how far away the alignment line is from one of the main quarter references.

It's better to learn how to do it visually, rather than getting too wrapped up with the math. The math isn't perfect for every shot because the system has been straightlined to make it easier to implement.

 

[measureman]

Geez just cut it in,too much to think about.
Pool is about feel not science.

 

[BC21]

Geez just cut it in,too much to think about.
Pool is about feel not science.

I agree. And that's the end goal of Poolology.
The method is just a shortcut tool to help players develop a feel/eye for cut shots, without having to guess or rely on time-consuming-old-school hamb methods such as ghostball or contact points or the traditional 5-lines fractional guesswork.

I'm not saying those methods don't work. I'm just saying they require a lot of trial-and-error and time.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Too confusing.
It's easier to visualize the two balls lining up to the pocket upon collision.

 

[Zerksies]

You're way over complicating something like this.

You are assuming that things are a constant and that perfect math with fix the problem. You have variables like stoke inconsistencies, cloth speed, bounce of the rail, humidity and cleaniness of the cloth.

Paying attention to what you are doing and HAMB is a easier tool.

 

[BC21]

Too confusing.
It's easier to visualize the two balls lining up to the pocket upon collision.

I agree, but I believe part of that visualization can include the overlap required to send the ob to the pocket.

The Poolology system uses two references for a starting point to determine how to aim the shot. Those two references are: Centerline between the cb and ob (to see how far away from the pocket this line hits on the rail), and the position of the ob in relation to the targeted pocket.

The numbers work, but it's really not difficult to just look at these references and determine immediately if the shot is a halfball hit or if it's thicker or thinner than a halfball hit.

 

[7stud]

Too much math thinking going on... just simply use the ob position value (30 for this shot), then divide that in half. 15. So if the alignment line from center to center points to 15 it's a halfball shot. If it points to 7 or 8 it's a 3/4 ball shot. And if it points to 22 to 23 it's a 1/4 ball shot. Fine tune the shots and any in-betweens by simply aiming a quarter of a ferrule thinner or thicker, based on how far away the alignment line is from one of the main quarter references.

It's better to learn how to do it visually, rather than getting too wrapped up with the math. The math isn't perfect for every shot because the system has been straightlined to make it easier to implement.

Thanks for the response. Yes, I am trying to figure out the Quarter Increments Scale, so I can avoid doing the math in my head, although I find the math I mentioned easy to calculate.

I have some other questions:

1. How are the the 40 and 60 lines drawn in Zone C? Where are their endpoints?

2. I tried to use the Quarter Increments Scale with a shot on the 60 line in Zone C. If I move over to 60 on the long rail to calculate the Quarter Increments Scale, that puts me at diamond number five (labeled 60 in the Poolology system). Half of 60 is 30, which is the third diamond in the Poolology numbering system. Half of 30 is 15. Where is the 1/4 ball increment on the long rail? From diamond 30, moving 10 towards the diamond numbered 60 in the Poolology system (actually the fifth diamond) gets me to diamond 40, which is the side pocket. Now how to do I move the remaining 5? From the side pocket, 40, to the next diamond, 60, is a 20 point difference, therefore do I move 5/20 toward diamond 60 to land on the 1/4 increment?

Thanks

 

[bbb]

I should not speak for Brian
but since his book is for sale
I think in depth discussions of what’s in there should really be done via PM with him
Jmho
Icbw

 

[measureman]

I agree. And that's the end goal of Poolology.
The method is just a shortcut tool to help players develop a feel/eye for cut shots, without having to guess or rely on time-consuming-old-school hamb methods such as ghostball or contact points or the traditional 5-lines fractional guesswork.

I'm not saying those methods don't work. I'm just saying they require a lot of trial-and-error and time.

No they dont.
Set up a cut shot
Over cut it hit it thicker
Under cut it hit it thinner.
Done.

 

[BC21]

....
Set up a cut shot
Over cut it hit it thicker
Under cut it hit it thinner.
Done.

Right. This only applies when your stroke is consistent enough to provide accurate cue delivery. Until then, missing thin or thick could be caused by aiming error or stroke error, and the player has no idea which.

Once a consistent cue delivery is developed, and after shooting a particular shot a few hundred or a few thousand times, your mind will finally recognize that particular cut angle from anywhere on the table, and you'll have the fundamentals to deliver the cb to where you know it needs to be to pocket the ball.

Eventually, with the experience of a few months of daily practice, or a few years of leisure practice or play, you'll develop a good feel/eye for most common cut shots. That's how hamb works, and it's a slow learning process for most people when learning this game.

I'm just saying a quicker method could be to start off knowing where to aim, based on known references (no experience needed, and no guesswork). The focus can then be on cue delivery. If you know 100% that a halfball aim is needed, or a 5/8 or whatever, and you miss the shot, there's no doubt it was missed due to fundamental error (stroke delivery, stance, setup...). The aim line was known.

This is what Poolology is doing for so many players out there. New players are developing skills quicker. And experienced players are picking up a few dead shots that have never felt or looked dead. It's a very good system, a tool that can be used to help inexperienced players get better, but also to help experienced players get a grip on certain inconsistent trouble shots.

 

[BC21]

I'm a Poolology beginner. Here's the shot:

View attachment 704991

At first, when calculating the fractional aim point I was mixing up degrees and fractional cuts, like 30/100, which is not 30 degrees! Now, I realize you should never even think the word "degrees" when you are figuring out the fractional cut. Nor should you ever be converting between, say, a 1/4 ball hit and 49 degrees when doing your mental calculations.

The way I am calculating things now is, for example in the shot above, the "overhang" is 25/30, so the "overlap" is 5/30. Then, in my head I convert 5/30 to 100ths, so I have to figure out what to multiply the denominator by to get 100. So 3.5 x 30 = 105 (so the multiplier is a little less than 3.5) and 3.5 times the numerator, 5, is 17.5, so a little less than that, and I guesstimate 16, so 16/100 is the "overlap". Next, I compare that to the nearest quarter ball hit, 3/4 = 75/100, 1/2 = 50/100, and 1/4 = 25/100, so for this shot 16/100 is close to 25/100, which means the proper fractional aim point has less overlap than a 1/4 ball cut, i.e. 16/100 is a thinner cut than a 1/4=25/100 ball hit. I also know by memorization that 1/8 = 12.5/100 , and 1/4=25/100 - 1/8=12.5/100 = 12.5/100, so the proper fractional aim point, 16/100, is in between a 1/4 ball cut (25/100) and an 1/8 ball cut(12.5/100). I can aim slightly thicker than an 1/8 ball cut or conversely a little thinner than a 1/4 ball cut. I can do the above calculations pretty quickly in my head, but I want to start trying to figure out the Quarter Increments Scale for each shot to see if that is faster for me.

In any case, is this the proper Quarter Increments Scale for this particular Zone B back cut?

View attachment 704990

I had a little trouble with the Quarter Increment Scale for this shot because for Zone A shots the "object ball position line" intersects the long rail, where the Quarter Increment Scale is positioned, while for this shot "the object ball position line" does not intersect the long rail.

I just thought I would add: when I started reading the Poolology ebook, I thought, "Way too complicated! I'll never be able to memorize the different diamond numbers for each of the three zones and remember all those object ball position lines. And, I can't even figure out how the Zone C lines are drawn??!" But I was curious enough to start with Zone A and try some shots. And, now I've tried shots in each of the three zones, and I can remember the diamond numbers and object ball position lines pretty easily. Reading the Zone C specific section helped me figure out how to draw the object ball position lines for Zone C, however I had to make some assumptions. Can anyone provide a detailed description for how to draw the 40 and 60 object ball position lines in Zone C? This may be the way the 60 line in Zone C is drawn:

View attachment 705081

I think the 60 line in Zone C might run from the bottom side pocket virtual diamond to the left short rail virtual diamond marked by the crossing lines in the diagram above. The left short rail virtual diamond is found by:

1. Extending the line of the nose cushion on the top long rail through the top left corner pocket.
2. Extending the line of the diamonds on the left short rail through the top left corner pocket.

Where those lines intersect is the position of the virtual diamond. I read a Dr. Dave article a while ago where he discussed where the virtual diamonds are located on the corner pockets, and I thought Poolology might be using one of those virtual diamonds. Is that the correct way to draw the 60 line in Zone C according to Poolology?

One thing I notice that I am doing differently with Poolology aiming is: I don't even look at the OB in relation to the pocket when I am down on the shot. My normal aiming method is to get a rough aim point while standing during my PSR, then when I get down on the shot, I do some fine tuning to find something that feels right as I look back and forth from the OB to the pocket. Next, I adjust one way or the other to see if it feels wrong--in an effort to confirm the aim point that feels right. Using Poolology, I calculate my fractional aim point while standing, then when I get down on the shot, I am singly focused on how to hit the calculated aim point, and I don't look back and forth between the OB and the pocket. I'm wondering if that is a bad way to use Poolology because not looking back and forth between the OB and the pocket means my brain is not getting to feel what the proper cut is for a variety of shots.

I am finding Poolology pretty helpful for side of the rack 14.1 break shots, which are simple Zone A shots (object ball position less than 25). I'm a 14.1 beginner, and I start every rack with a side of the rack break shot, and I find I'm not very consistent at sinking the break ball--I just don't have a very good feel for back cuts into the corner pocket. Poolology seems to be helping. For instance:

View attachment 705106

The object ball position is 15, and the line formed by the CB and OB points to 10 on the end rail, so the "overhang" is 10/15 or 2/3, which makes the "overlap" 1/3, which is 33/100. Comparing 1/3=33/100 to a 1/4 ball hit = 25/100, you can see that a 1/3 cut is slightly thicker than a 1/4 ball cut shot--but not a full 1/8=12.5/100 thicker.

Instead of using all that fractional stuff, try using your tip/ferrule to fine tune the aim. In other words, ob position is 15. If the alignment value were 7 or 8 it would be a half ball shot. With an alignment value of 10, it's obvious that it's thinner than a half shot but not as thin as a 1/4 ball shot. So aim the inside edge of your tip/ferrule to the edge of the ob to thin the shot by 1/8. You can even split your tip/ferrule into 4ths or 8ths and aim a 4th or 8th of a ferrule thinner or thicker when needed.

 

[Thresh]

Too much math thinking going on... just simply use the ob position value (30 for this shot), then divide that in half. 15. So if the alignment line from center to center points to 15 it's a halfball shot. If it points to 7 or 8 it's a 3/4 ball shot. And if it points to 22 to 23 it's a 1/4 ball shot. Fine tune the shots and any in-betweens by simply aiming a quarter of a ferrule thinner or thicker, based on how far away the alignment line is from one of the main quarter references.

It's better to learn how to do it visually, rather than getting too wrapped up with the math. The math isn't perfect for every shot because the system has been straightlined to make it easier to implement.

I agree with this.

I'm s big fan of Poolology. I like to use it on back cuts when my cue ball naturally goes towards the middle of the table, no rail near by.

I use Poology in this way. I determined if the shot is thicker, equal to, or thinner than a half ball. That's my reference or baseline.

Then, like Brian said, take the half value of the half ball hit. Let's say it's r object ball is on the 40.

I know my quarter increments are "10"

So what's the deal full hit? If it aligns to 25,I know it's more than a half ball (>20/40), but less than a quarter ball (<30/40)

Then I use my guts and adjust for sounds and speed.

This may sound slightly complicated, but I can assure you, I do this in just a few seconds and you wouldn't know I'm doing it.

Friends that own Poolology can spot me occasionally because the see me walk to side of the object because I'm checking the OB alignment value.

Also I simplified Poolology for my teammates with very low handicaps. I just call it the 3 diamond rule. If the object ball is within 3 diamonds of the corner pocket, just do the simple zone B like calculation.

I don't teach them anything past that, like C or where A shifts diagonally at 50.

If they are taking a zone C shot when the object ball is much farther than 3 diamonds away from the pocket, just make an invisible pocket, that is on the shot line, about 3 diamonds away from the object ball. Now you basically have a zone B shot.

I highly recommend anyone who has around $10 but the electronic version of the book. It will help you use that $700 cue. Best $10 you will ever spend, even if it just helps you shoot one category of shots better, over time and many racks, that's huge.

Also on a side note, when the OB is closer to a rail, I use Poolology to find the cut angle. I know the cue ball leaves the rail at 60 degrees minus cut angle. So I know a half ball hit with a rolling cue ball, the cue ball will leave at (60-30), 30 degrees forward after contact and bounce off the rail.

360/24 = 15 degrees.

So if the cue ball is moving forward at 30 degrees, that means the cue ball will have a path that leads to 2 diamonds forward of where is left the object ball across the table.

Now I know 100% if I still scrach, get correct position, or make the break out.

So basically just Poolology for position play

Also, one tip of English equals plus/minus one diamond across the table.

I can elaborate on that in a new thread, I've never seen anyone else discuss that.

 

[7stud]

360/24 = 15 degrees.

So if the cue ball is moving forward at 30 degrees, that means the cue ball will have a path that leads to 2 diamonds forward of where is left the object ball across the table.

Now I know 100% if I still scrach, get correct position, or make the break out.

I'm not following that: why are you dividing 360/24?

 

[Thresh]

I'm not following that: why are you dividing 360/24?

A circle will account for the cue ball going in any direction.

I use the diamonds for reference.

How many diamonds are on the table? 3 on each rail, x6 rails = 18 plus count each pocket as one diamond.

24 diamonds total.

Our diamonds are arranged as a rectangle but without overcomplicating things, just consider it a circle. Circle is 360 degrees, 24 diamonds. Divide.

So a cue ball leaving the center diamond of a rail, and going across to the opposite rail, 1 diamond forward or backward, is about a 15 degree angle.

 

[bbb]

A circle will account for the cue ball going in any direction.

I use the diamonds for reference.

How many diamonds are on the table? 3 on each rail, x6 rails = 18 plus count each pocket as one diamond.

24 diamonds total.

Our diamonds are arranged as a rectangle but without overcomplicating things, just consider it a circle. Circle is 360 degrees, 24 diamonds. Divide.

So a cue ball leaving the center diamond of a rail, and going across to the opposite rail, 1 diamond forward or backward, is about a 15 degree angle.

a ball going from the corner to the opposite side pocket
is going 4 diamonds
thats a 45 degree angle not 60
maybe i am wrong or misunderstanding you

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...one tip of English equals plus/minus one diamond across the table.

I agree with this, but...

...a cue ball leaving the center diamond of a rail, and going across to the opposite rail, 1 diamond forward or backward, is about a 15 degree angle.

a ball going from the corner to the opposite side pocket
is going 4 diamonds
thats a 45 degree angle not 60

pj
chgo

 

[bbb]

I gree with this, but...



View attachment 705598

pj
chgo

patrick
do those angle numbers change significantly if you are going thru diamond to diamond instead in front of diamond as you have diagramed?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

patrick
do those angle numbers change significantly if you are going thru diamond to diamond instead in front of diamond as you have diagramed?

Not much - about 1/4 degree less angle for 1 diamond, up to about 1/2 degree less for 8 diamonds.

pj
chgo

 

[bbb]

Not much - about 1/4 degree less angle for 1 diamond, up to about 1/2 degree less for 7 diamonds.

pj
chgo

thanks alot PJ......