It will be nice. Thanks Randy................
Porper Vs Hightower
- Thread starter chipperd
- Start date
It will be nice. Thanks Randy................
I'm fishing through the weekend, but sometime next week give me a call.
Do you have any more info on that please?
My new Porper lathe is out. The tail stock is approximately 1mm to the left of centre of headstock.
If anyone knows anything more, or has heard about this issue, please let me know.
Having said that, despite mine being 'bent', if I were asked for an honest, straight recommendation, the Porper wins hands down. I would say, without question, it is a superior, and more accurate machine than the Hightower Deluxe I have owned for around 10 years.
Of course I do need my centres fixed (or the whole machine replaced) but it's a nice, solid machine and more like a traditional engineering lathe to use, of which I have owned many, so it gets my vote.
The Hightower is nice and convenient in use, but it was never particularly accurate despite the various points of adjustment. These days it is mostly used for sanding and other 'non-critical' operations, not least because the amount of use it has had, has affected the initial accuracy issues further.
As ridiculous as that may seem coming from someone who openly criticises his new Porper machine for alignment issues, I can still vouch for the fact that I have already managed to achieve more accuracy, particularly with real simple tasks like facing and drilling, than I could ever manage with my Hightower Deluxe.
However, the Hightower Deluxe is still a fine machine, capable of doing it all, but it's what I would class as hobby compared to the Porper's light trade rating.
And that is reflected in the price. Yes, it is cheaper. Anyone with experience of tools machines in general will know and understand the saying 'buy cheap, buy twice'. Things are cheaper for a reason and that does not apply anywhere more than when dealing with professional tools and machinery.
For serious, 'big producing' full time cue makers, both machines would probably end up as back up for 'proper', heavy duty machines anyway.
Buy the Porper if you can afford it. But make sure you demand that Don checks and verifies the headstock and tail stock alignment first!
Do you have any more info on that please?
My new Porper lathe is out. The tail stock is approximately 1mm to the left of centre of headstock.
Have called and talked with Don at Porper? Also how did you check the alingment of the chuck and the tail stock?
I may be able to help.
Craig
Do you have any more info on that please?
My new Porper lathe is out. The tail stock is approximately 1mm to the left of centre of headstock.
Have called and talked with Don at Porper? Also how did you check the alingment of the chuck and the tail stock?
I may be able to help.
Craig
Yes I have spoken to Don. First he sent me a new morse taper insert to try, but that turned out to be exactly the same.
Now I am waiting for a new tailstock to try. Don tells me he has checked it and it is 0.004 "well within tolerances"
Not sure who decides what tolerance that should be, as I would want to get them spot on if I could.
But hopefully when it arrives, it may 'straighten' up the machine.
You may be able to help? Please feel free to offer any suggestions.
Test bar with centre point running true, tailstock centre approximately 1mm to the left regardless of whether it was wound fully in or fully out. Definitely a case of of castings out of alignment in my opinion.
Porper alignment
Why would I have to demand that Don checks and verifies the headstock and tailstock alignment first? Wouldn't he do that on all sales as a matter of Q.C. ??? Is that a common problem? Or a one time thing?
thanks, Bill
Do you have any more info on that please?
My new Porper lathe is out. The tail stock is approximately 1mm to the left of centre of headstock.
If anyone knows anything more, or has heard about this issue, please let me know.
Having said that, despite mine being 'bent', if I were asked for an honest, straight recommendation, the Porper wins hands down. I would say, without question, it is a superior, and more accurate machine than the Hightower Deluxe I have owned for around 10 years.
Of course I do need my centres fixed (or the whole machine replaced) but it's a nice, solid machine and more like a traditional engineering lathe to use, of which I have owned many, so it gets my vote.
The Hightower is nice and convenient in use, but it was never particularly accurate despite the various points of adjustment. These days it is mostly used for sanding and other 'non-critical' operations, not least because the amount of use it has had, has affected the initial accuracy issues further.
As ridiculous as that may seem coming from someone who openly criticises his new Porper machine for alignment issues, I can still vouch for the fact that I have already managed to achieve more accuracy, particularly with real simple tasks like facing and drilling, than I could ever manage with my Hightower Deluxe.
However, the Hightower Deluxe is still a fine machine, capable of doing it all, but it's what I would class as hobby compared to the Porper's light trade rating.
And that is reflected in the price. Yes, it is cheaper. Anyone with experience of tools machines in general will know and understand the saying 'buy cheap, buy twice'. Things are cheaper for a reason and that does not apply anywhere more than when dealing with professional tools and machinery.
For serious, 'big producing' full time cue makers, both machines would probably end up as back up for 'proper', heavy duty machines anyway.
Buy the Porper if you can afford it. But make sure you demand that Don checks and verifies the headstock and tail stock alignment first!
Why would I have to demand that Don checks and verifies the headstock and tailstock alignment first? Wouldn't he do that on all sales as a matter of Q.C. ??? Is that a common problem? Or a one time thing?
thanks, Bill
accuracy
I'm not sure it's the right thing to do. When I first got my deluxe it was less than .004 out..I bored the chuck out and it's about .003 out.
My brand new Jet Lathe came and it's .0035 out. I bored out a chuck and got it down to under .002 out The spindle on the jet was .0005 out. The chuck was probably .003 out. I'm not sure I want to continue working under these conditions and Chris says to use cigarette paper or a shim. I can do that but it's time consuming to have to keep dialing in. I feel like it should be closer to dead on and I've been looking for a used quality lathe that is very accurate to replace my older chinese lathe.
I love the hightower for it's space savings. My garage is about the size a two car garage is and I'm looking for room all the time.
I'm sure I can get the Hightower more accurate still. But I don't know how much time and money I'm willing to use doing so. I can always use it for other jobs. It's versatile as well as small. I've been wondering if I can buy an accurate chuck more like a six jaw and adapt it to the hightower.. etc.?? I guess I'd need a machinist for that one.
Bill
I'm not sure it's the right thing to do. When I first got my deluxe it was less than .004 out..I bored the chuck out and it's about .003 out.
My brand new Jet Lathe came and it's .0035 out. I bored out a chuck and got it down to under .002 out The spindle on the jet was .0005 out. The chuck was probably .003 out. I'm not sure I want to continue working under these conditions and Chris says to use cigarette paper or a shim. I can do that but it's time consuming to have to keep dialing in. I feel like it should be closer to dead on and I've been looking for a used quality lathe that is very accurate to replace my older chinese lathe.
I love the hightower for it's space savings. My garage is about the size a two car garage is and I'm looking for room all the time.
I'm sure I can get the Hightower more accurate still. But I don't know how much time and money I'm willing to use doing so. I can always use it for other jobs. It's versatile as well as small. I've been wondering if I can buy an accurate chuck more like a six jaw and adapt it to the hightower.. etc.?? I guess I'd need a machinist for that one.
Bill
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Bill I understand your frustration, I tried other machines before I purchased my Porper B. I also had problems, and it appears that some people have problems with the Porper B. But right out of the box my lathe was dead nuts, the only problems I have had were normal wear and tear, my machine is used a great deal. Currently I have a chuck on the front and back, I installed the rear chuck myself and it took a little while to get everything dialed back in. But, that was do to my lack of experience and not the equipment or the manufacturer, I did not realize that when you add a rear chuck that you have dial in both chucks again.
The first test I did for accuracy was turning a dowel to the maximum length I could extent my lathe. Now most know that the Porper lathe does not have a center steady rest, so tests were without one. The first test turning a 1 inch diameter dowel I held 3 thousandth from end to end. I then tried different diameter dowels and I found that by adjusting the tension between the front chuck and the tail stock I could achieve similar results down to a 1/4 inch dowel.
Maybe I am just lucky that I got a machine from them that works like it does, but I liked this machine enough to buy a repair lathe from a customer who had no use for it. I recently upgraded that lathe to the current specifications, IE a new motor, new control box that also had the upgraded board and Don at Porper treated me very fair considering the price of a new repair lathe.
I hope you find what your looking for, If you are thinking about a Porper B and want some great information contact Micheal Webb here on the forum. He has as much knowledge as anyone alive about this equipment, he has also made major modifications to these machines and Mike is a great guy who will help if he can.
Take Care
At the moment I am to sleepy to get into details but I will say that if a chuck is still .003 out at the same opening after having bored it you have done something wrong. After boring the chuck It should run dead nuts to the play in the bearings which is probably in the .00001 range.
Dick
Porper
I friend of mine bought a used model B. It was quite worn so i helped him rebuild it and make a few mods. We replaced the carriage, spindle bearings and mounted a dial to use as a readout. I am accustomed to using machine tools so it was my first experience a "cue lathe". Don was helpful and gave good customer service. After getting the machine going and using it I was dissapointed. Not very rigid or precise. I believe it is the nature of the machine, to get accuracy you need accurate rigid slides. The round slides and ready rod screws just no comparison to dovetail slides and precision ground screws. As well in order to have stability you need mass. The best tool room lathes are built like tanks. You cant compare aluminum to cast iron. For the money one will spend on a new B, you could find a nice old lathe which you would never regret. Having said all that if you dont want to tinkeror have to move a heavy machine these machines will do the job. Me personaly I could never get used to using one tho. The one saving grace of these smaller machines is they have less potential to hurt you if you dont know how to properly run a lathe, that and they come ready to go with all the attachments. So i guess it boils down to what kind of skills you already posess going into it.
I friend of mine bought a used model B. It was quite worn so i helped him rebuild it and make a few mods. We replaced the carriage, spindle bearings and mounted a dial to use as a readout. I am accustomed to using machine tools so it was my first experience a "cue lathe". Don was helpful and gave good customer service. After getting the machine going and using it I was dissapointed. Not very rigid or precise. I believe it is the nature of the machine, to get accuracy you need accurate rigid slides. The round slides and ready rod screws just no comparison to dovetail slides and precision ground screws. As well in order to have stability you need mass. The best tool room lathes are built like tanks. You cant compare aluminum to cast iron. For the money one will spend on a new B, you could find a nice old lathe which you would never regret. Having said all that if you dont want to tinkeror have to move a heavy machine these machines will do the job. Me personaly I could never get used to using one tho. The one saving grace of these smaller machines is they have less potential to hurt you if you dont know how to properly run a lathe, that and they come ready to go with all the attachments. So i guess it boils down to what kind of skills you already posess going into it.
They are both good machines, No matter what you buy, you still have to make it your own and learn it's strength's and weaknesses as well as your own.
This goes for every piece of equipment you ever buy or use. Words to live by,
If you tried boring the chuck on one of chris's machines:
Did you lock the jaws?? (Clamping pressure).
So, you want the bore of the jaws to be a perfect (as close as possible) match to the stock you are holding when they are at clamping pressure. This means they have to be clamped during the boring in a manner as close as possible to the way they will be clamped during use.
The clamping pressure does not vary throughout the stroke of the jaws so it does not matter whether you bore them when they are near the top of their stroke or near the bottom.
The reason I suggest closing them down so there is only a small bit of travel remaining is that when they are open you have plenty of clearance to put you stock in.
Chuck jaws always bellmouth when closing: It is impossible to avoid because the closing force is behind the jaw slots and the part being clamped is in front; on a good chuck it is not much but it is there. This means the grip of a chuck is not even along the length of the jaw and tends to be tighter toward the chuck body.
The way to compensate for this is to clamp the jaws in a way that maximizes the bell mouthing while they are being bored. This is why the dowels are put in the counter bores and closed down on a ring; the dowels are acting like jaw extensions so the jaws are clamping at a distance further from the chuck body than they will clamp in use.
Then when the jaws are clamped on the stock they make the best contact along their entire length.
Something like this anyway. It's late, I'm running out of gas.
This goes for every piece of equipment you ever buy or use. Words to live by,
If you tried boring the chuck on one of chris's machines:
Did you lock the jaws?? (Clamping pressure).
So, you want the bore of the jaws to be a perfect (as close as possible) match to the stock you are holding when they are at clamping pressure. This means they have to be clamped during the boring in a manner as close as possible to the way they will be clamped during use.
The clamping pressure does not vary throughout the stroke of the jaws so it does not matter whether you bore them when they are near the top of their stroke or near the bottom.
The reason I suggest closing them down so there is only a small bit of travel remaining is that when they are open you have plenty of clearance to put you stock in.
Chuck jaws always bellmouth when closing: It is impossible to avoid because the closing force is behind the jaw slots and the part being clamped is in front; on a good chuck it is not much but it is there. This means the grip of a chuck is not even along the length of the jaw and tends to be tighter toward the chuck body.
The way to compensate for this is to clamp the jaws in a way that maximizes the bell mouthing while they are being bored. This is why the dowels are put in the counter bores and closed down on a ring; the dowels are acting like jaw extensions so the jaws are clamping at a distance further from the chuck body than they will clamp in use.
Then when the jaws are clamped on the stock they make the best contact along their entire length.
Something like this anyway. It's late, I'm running out of gas.
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On Porpers machine:
If the dead center in the chuck does not align with the center in the tail stock:
1- The problem could be as simple as leveling the machine, That's why legs are adjustable.
2- It could be that the spindle on the tail stock is off, the spindle has bushings to either accept straight, or Morse tapered tooling.
3-It also could be the spindle is cocked in the head itself. The head is bolted together. Anything bolted can and will move. The front and back panel, although they are helpful in the overall stability of the machine, they are not as critical as the left and right side plate, along with the top and bottom plate.
I really hope this info helps with both machines. Joe Porper and Chris Hightower are equally great guys, Stubborn as the day is long in believing what they offer, if they didn't, they wouldn't sell them.
I'm sure there are more questions with both machines, I only touched base on the issues you all brought up. I'm just a peckerwood who doesn't get enough sleep. :sorry:
If the dead center in the chuck does not align with the center in the tail stock:
1- The problem could be as simple as leveling the machine, That's why legs are adjustable.
2- It could be that the spindle on the tail stock is off, the spindle has bushings to either accept straight, or Morse tapered tooling.
3-It also could be the spindle is cocked in the head itself. The head is bolted together. Anything bolted can and will move. The front and back panel, although they are helpful in the overall stability of the machine, they are not as critical as the left and right side plate, along with the top and bottom plate.
I really hope this info helps with both machines. Joe Porper and Chris Hightower are equally great guys, Stubborn as the day is long in believing what they offer, if they didn't, they wouldn't sell them.
I'm sure there are more questions with both machines, I only touched base on the issues you all brought up. I'm just a peckerwood who doesn't get enough sleep. :sorry:
You hit the nail on the head. I bought a Model B 15 years ago to do tips, ferrules, and wraps. I was planning to build a cue with it also. I also purchased a used Clausen metal lathe with a good Jacobs chuck that I found for $1000.00 and found some used spring collets for the Jacobs for around $300.00. Changed the motor to single phase for another $200.00 and away I went. The Model B slide has too much play as you can put your hand on top of the tool post and move it .010 to .015. Hard to flat face anything with this much play. The Clausen on the other hand is built like a tank and easy to flat face.
Needless to say I use the Model B as my repair lathe now, just for tips, ferrules and wraps. All my cue making is done on the Clausen.
Yes, I brought centres together.
Yes, the chuck is running true.
Tailstock centre 1mm to left of headstock centre. I don't even need to measure it, the problem is clear to see.
Error is the same with quill shut or fully extended.
This tells me tailstock casting is not lined up with the headstock casting.