How did you learn how to play position and using english for position purposes? What type of drills to you use when you practice before a match or just out shooting? I play ok position, I know I can do better. When I shoot, most of the time I know how to shoot the shot and where I want the cueball to be for the next shot but when I actually shoot using english or no english the cueball ends up somewhere else or does something I didnt think it would do. What would you suggest I do in order to play better position and become a better player. I know that it may be fundamentals but I just cant explain how the same shot done the same way can do something different. Im really just looking for consistancy. thanks
Position Play
- Thread starter NOSAJ03
- Start date
Well, this is a great question and I will try to answer it to my best ability. Position play has not been my greatest part of my game to be honest.
I use alot of center ball so learning to use english was a big step for me. The thing that helped me the most was learning tangent lines and know how to use them. When you learn how the tangent lines work you can figure out where your cue ball is going. I suggest shooting shots multiple times. For example shoot it 5 times with center ball, 5 with follow, 5 with draw, then start throwing in left and right. That way you can start to see what is happening. Learning about the tangent lines gives you something to always be able to check on every shot and get an idea where you are going. You can learn ways to get in and out of sticky situations.
Another thing to remember is that sometimes the way shots react is not your fault. Humidity and temperature make the tables play different. Plus different brands of tables play differently. The size of the pockets may also change things.
Hopefully I have helped. If anyone else has advice please share. I am interested in learning as well
Sarah
I use alot of center ball so learning to use english was a big step for me. The thing that helped me the most was learning tangent lines and know how to use them. When you learn how the tangent lines work you can figure out where your cue ball is going. I suggest shooting shots multiple times. For example shoot it 5 times with center ball, 5 with follow, 5 with draw, then start throwing in left and right. That way you can start to see what is happening. Learning about the tangent lines gives you something to always be able to check on every shot and get an idea where you are going. You can learn ways to get in and out of sticky situations.
Another thing to remember is that sometimes the way shots react is not your fault. Humidity and temperature make the tables play different. Plus different brands of tables play differently. The size of the pockets may also change things.
Hopefully I have helped. If anyone else has advice please share. I am interested in learning as well
Sarah
You can get around the table pretty well just by using draw, stop or follow. If you use just these three types of shots, you'll find that you can become pretty consistent. English does help but it is less predictable and should be used only when you need maximum spin to get around balls. Try this drill, put the ob a couple of inches from the corner pocket and an inch or two from the side rail. Put the cb perpindicular to the ob and try using draw, center and follow to see how far down table the cb can go. You'll find that after a little practice, you can become pretty accurate as to what line the cb takes.
I would have to agree about the center ball approach and with just using follow and draw. If you add into acocunt that the higher or lower you it on the ball, effects the width of the angle as well, you can probably play a whole day without using english. I played for a few hours today and I think the only time I used english was once on draw off a rail, to hold it at one end of the table, and once to try and kill a ball, and once on an efren type of cut shot, that was all, the whole day.
Jordan
Jordan
Thanks everyone for the advice. Position play isnt my strongest point, everyone says Im a great shot maker. I usually have no problem making the shots from anywhere on the table which is not bad but I always have to work to make the shots. Everyone I play or watched me play said that if I learned how to play better position I would be dangerous. I love making incredible shots but I dont like working so hard for each shot when they could be so much easier. I use a lot of center, draw and follow but its just when I start to use english when everything goes wrong. Oh well Ill just have to keep playing.
Thank you everyone for helping me out with this one. I agree that not using any english is the best way. I try to stick to that. I agree with Jordan that there are certain shots that you have to use english. The less extreme, the better.
NOSAJ03, I used to play the same way and still do on occassion, no position and making shots from everywhere. It isn't bad but when the pressure is on it may fold. People always tell me to play position closer to the next ball but I am short so I usually leave myself long shots. Perfect position would be great but sometimes you have to settle for what is comfortable. So practice learning about english (the drill Rick suggested is a good one) and remember no one is perfect. It will get better with time and practice.
Take care,
Sarah
NOSAJ03, I used to play the same way and still do on occassion, no position and making shots from everywhere. It isn't bad but when the pressure is on it may fold. People always tell me to play position closer to the next ball but I am short so I usually leave myself long shots. Perfect position would be great but sometimes you have to settle for what is comfortable. So practice learning about english (the drill Rick suggested is a good one) and remember no one is perfect. It will get better with time and practice.
Take care,
Sarah
Ill try and set up a couple Of WEI diagrams that will help you learn english. Set up this shot:
(for the wei table click HERE)
START(
%AB5\1%BB3\1%CB9[4%DB8[5%EB6\2%Fn8W6%GB9[7%HB6[8%IB5\2%JC0[6
%KB8\0%LC5[9%MB8\2%NB5\1%OB6[4%Pg9V9
)END
From here you can play to just about any spot on the table using english with tops and bottoms.
Try these:
START(
%AB5\1%BB3\1%CB9[4%DB8[5%EB6\2%Fn8W6%GB9[7%HB6[8%IB5\2%JC0[6
%KB8\0%LC5[9%MB8\2%NB5\1%OD1L5%Pg9V9%UG4U5%Vj1D1%Wm4W0%Xh2W0
%Ys7\0%Zo4X2%[r7M6%\o1U9%]k0D6%^r7M3%eA3a8
)END
START(
%AB5\1%BB3\1%CB9[4%DB8[5%EB6\2%Fn8W6%GB9[7%HB6[8%IB5\2%JC0[6
%KB8\0%LC5[9%MB8\2%NB5\1%Oj5Z2%Pg9V9%U^8Y4%Vo4C9%Wm4W0%Xh2W0
%Ys7\0%Zo4X2%[r7M6%\o1U9%]p2E7%^r7M3%eA4b0
)END
START(
%AB5\1%BB3\1%CB9[4%DB8[5%EB6\2%Fn8W6%GB9[7%HB6[8%IB5\2%JC0[6
%KB8\0%LC5[9%MB8\2%NB5\1%O]0Y4%Pg9V9%Wm4W0%Xh2W0%Ys7\0%Zo4X2
%[r4S7%\o1U9%]d5M5%^r4R8%eC4`5
)END
START(
%AB5\1%BB3\1%CB9[4%DB8[5%EB6\2%Fn8W6%GB9[7%HB6[8%IB5\2%JC0[6
%KB8\0%LC5[9%MB8\2%NB5\1%O\4Y6%Pg9V9%Wm4W0%Xh2W0%Ys7\0%Zo4X2
%[r3T1%\o1U9%]e1M1%^r8R3%eC4`4
)END
START(
%AB5\1%BB3\1%CB9[4%DB8[5%EB6\2%Fn8W6%GB9[7%HB6[8%IB5\2%JC0[6
%KB8\0%LC5[9%MB8\2%NB5\1%On8D8%Pg9V9%Wm4W0%Xh2W0%Ys7\0%Zo4X2
%[r5R9%\o1U9%]a0E7%^r8R3%eB4`3
)END
Notice The only thing i am changing is the English. (cueball on the bottom left shows that)
Set Up that shot and play around with it, it comes up in just about every single game and it helps to be able to put the cueball anywhere you want when it does.
(for the wei table click HERE)
START(
%AB5\1%BB3\1%CB9[4%DB8[5%EB6\2%Fn8W6%GB9[7%HB6[8%IB5\2%JC0[6
%KB8\0%LC5[9%MB8\2%NB5\1%OB6[4%Pg9V9
)END
From here you can play to just about any spot on the table using english with tops and bottoms.
Try these:
START(
%AB5\1%BB3\1%CB9[4%DB8[5%EB6\2%Fn8W6%GB9[7%HB6[8%IB5\2%JC0[6
%KB8\0%LC5[9%MB8\2%NB5\1%OD1L5%Pg9V9%UG4U5%Vj1D1%Wm4W0%Xh2W0
%Ys7\0%Zo4X2%[r7M6%\o1U9%]k0D6%^r7M3%eA3a8
)END
START(
%AB5\1%BB3\1%CB9[4%DB8[5%EB6\2%Fn8W6%GB9[7%HB6[8%IB5\2%JC0[6
%KB8\0%LC5[9%MB8\2%NB5\1%Oj5Z2%Pg9V9%U^8Y4%Vo4C9%Wm4W0%Xh2W0
%Ys7\0%Zo4X2%[r7M6%\o1U9%]p2E7%^r7M3%eA4b0
)END
START(
%AB5\1%BB3\1%CB9[4%DB8[5%EB6\2%Fn8W6%GB9[7%HB6[8%IB5\2%JC0[6
%KB8\0%LC5[9%MB8\2%NB5\1%O]0Y4%Pg9V9%Wm4W0%Xh2W0%Ys7\0%Zo4X2
%[r4S7%\o1U9%]d5M5%^r4R8%eC4`5
)END
START(
%AB5\1%BB3\1%CB9[4%DB8[5%EB6\2%Fn8W6%GB9[7%HB6[8%IB5\2%JC0[6
%KB8\0%LC5[9%MB8\2%NB5\1%O\4Y6%Pg9V9%Wm4W0%Xh2W0%Ys7\0%Zo4X2
%[r3T1%\o1U9%]e1M1%^r8R3%eC4`4
)END
START(
%AB5\1%BB3\1%CB9[4%DB8[5%EB6\2%Fn8W6%GB9[7%HB6[8%IB5\2%JC0[6
%KB8\0%LC5[9%MB8\2%NB5\1%On8D8%Pg9V9%Wm4W0%Xh2W0%Ys7\0%Zo4X2
%[r5R9%\o1U9%]a0E7%^r8R3%eB4`3
)END
Notice The only thing i am changing is the English. (cueball on the bottom left shows that)
Set Up that shot and play around with it, it comes up in just about every single game and it helps to be able to put the cueball anywhere you want when it does.
Thank you for the diagrams fxskater. I appreciate it.
Sarah
Sarah
I did some thinking about position play today while on the table, and here are my thoughts.
To get the cue ball to land within a half inch of where you want it to land is hard. Your speed, your angles and how you hit the object ball will drastically change everything. So, today I asked myself 3 questions before I shot each shot and it worked out pretty well.
1) Do i want the cue ball to stop where the object ball is, back to where it is now, or somewhere else?
2) If somewhere else, am I going to be traveling in line the whole time or am i going into the line. If going into the line...
3) is it better to under shoot or over shoot.
I think the best thing that hapened is that my pre-shot routine was a bit more complete. However, the result was longer innings.
Hope this helps ya all.
Jordan
To get the cue ball to land within a half inch of where you want it to land is hard. Your speed, your angles and how you hit the object ball will drastically change everything. So, today I asked myself 3 questions before I shot each shot and it worked out pretty well.
1) Do i want the cue ball to stop where the object ball is, back to where it is now, or somewhere else?
2) If somewhere else, am I going to be traveling in line the whole time or am i going into the line. If going into the line...
3) is it better to under shoot or over shoot.
I think the best thing that hapened is that my pre-shot routine was a bit more complete. However, the result was longer innings.
Hope this helps ya all.
Jordan
That is pretty interesting Jordan. It seems like a lot to think about but I guess once you get used to the routine it moves along quickly. It is part of decision making. Usually when I am playing bad my decision making goes. Everything seems wrong. I start asking questions like "Will I go to the rail to play shape, will I just stop it, will i use extreme english?" All of it becomes confusing. When I am playing well all of those questions answer themselves. I think it is definitely a good idea to come up with a routine that quickly answers your questions.
I think other important questions would be...1) Do I need to use the rail(s) to get shape? 2) Does this take extreme english or can I be simple? 3) Will the extreme english getting me in trouble in anyway? 4) Is making this shot more simple than playing safe or is the safe more simple than shooting the shot?
Just some ideas.
Sarah
I think other important questions would be...1) Do I need to use the rail(s) to get shape? 2) Does this take extreme english or can I be simple? 3) Will the extreme english getting me in trouble in anyway? 4) Is making this shot more simple than playing safe or is the safe more simple than shooting the shot?
Just some ideas.
Sarah
I think other important questions would be...1) Do I need to use the rail(s) to get shape? 2) Does this take extreme english or can I be simple? 3) Will the extreme english getting me in trouble in anyway? 4) Is making this shot more simple than playing safe or is the safe more simple than shooting the shot?
Just some ideas.
Sarah[/QUOTE]
I would have to agree 100 percent. When I am playing bad I find that not only did I make a wrong decison I just didn't even make one. Like I shoot, make a shot, and say "what the heck was I doing. As to the questions you ask yourself, Yes, will the cueball go there naturally or do I need to manipulate the cb to do something. anyhow, I am in town for a couple weeks so we should get together and play.
Jordan
Just some ideas.
Sarah[/QUOTE]
I would have to agree 100 percent. When I am playing bad I find that not only did I make a wrong decison I just didn't even make one. Like I shoot, make a shot, and say "what the heck was I doing. As to the questions you ask yourself, Yes, will the cueball go there naturally or do I need to manipulate the cb to do something. anyhow, I am in town for a couple weeks so we should get together and play.
Jordan
I am absolutely NO EXPERT, but I have found that I am THE most successful when keeping to centerball as often as possible. This was a hard lesson to learn, because it seems that so much emphasize is put on playing english. I got so hung up on it, that my game pretty much went into the toilet, as far as I was concerned. So I stopped, and got back to the fundamentals. Centerball has won me ALOT more games than english ever has.
One of the other things I learned was 'draw for show, follow for dough'. I will only use draw when the shot absolutely requires it to set me up for the next shot in my 'pattern'. I will, however, try to set my pattern play to require no need for draw, when ever possible.
I have found, in my personal experience, and what has worked for me, that when I have played primarily centerball top, it has enhanced my ball speed control dramatically.
On the rare occasion that I use english, it is generally to play the cueball off the rail. I have also found that I usually use 'reverse' english to execute a difficult bank shot. However, I try to avoid bank shots, as a rule, as they are a fairly low precentage shot in general, and far too dependent on the condition of any given table's rails.
Sheesh....I actually kinda sound like I know what I am talking about!
Lisa
One of the other things I learned was 'draw for show, follow for dough'. I will only use draw when the shot absolutely requires it to set me up for the next shot in my 'pattern'. I will, however, try to set my pattern play to require no need for draw, when ever possible.
I have found, in my personal experience, and what has worked for me, that when I have played primarily centerball top, it has enhanced my ball speed control dramatically.
On the rare occasion that I use english, it is generally to play the cueball off the rail. I have also found that I usually use 'reverse' english to execute a difficult bank shot. However, I try to avoid bank shots, as a rule, as they are a fairly low precentage shot in general, and far too dependent on the condition of any given table's rails.
Sheesh....I actually kinda sound like I know what I am talking about!
Lisa
Great post Lisa. I agree with you 100%. Centerball is definitely the way to go. When I say center ball I include using follow, center, and draw with no side english. You are also right about follow. It is much easier to use than draw and more dependable. When you are nervous your draw stroke can fail you more than any other. You can either use too much or too little. I have to admit though and I'm sure others will agree with me, that using english can be exciting. To see people that really know what they are doing make the ball spin around the table is truly amazing. I myself and others probably get in trouble trying to recreate these shots.
Jordan, I agree with you, the worst thing to do is not make a decision at all. You always end up on the 50 yard line doing that. Unfortunately all of us are guilty of that. It is very difficult to get up when you are questioning yourself. In my opinion that is why Allison Fisher and Karen Corr play so well, they always make up their mind first. If you are in town I will be at Cue N You practicing from noon-7pm Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. Any days after that I won't be available because of the tournament in Vegas. Let me know if you want to play or just stop in. I'm pretty easy to spot.
Take care,
Sarah
Jordan, I agree with you, the worst thing to do is not make a decision at all. You always end up on the 50 yard line doing that. Unfortunately all of us are guilty of that. It is very difficult to get up when you are questioning yourself. In my opinion that is why Allison Fisher and Karen Corr play so well, they always make up their mind first. If you are in town I will be at Cue N You practicing from noon-7pm Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. Any days after that I won't be available because of the tournament in Vegas. Let me know if you want to play or just stop in. I'm pretty easy to spot.
Take care,
Sarah
Just a random observation. Center ball is obviously easier to use and more consistent than using a lot of left and right English; however I would disagree with the poster who thinks you can play for hours with just center ball. If you want to play at the highest level, I think (JMO) you MUST master the use of left and right English (soft, hard, subtle, and extreme). Especially in 9 Ball where your object balls are chosen for you, often the only possible route requires the use of side English. When these shots come up, you must feel very comfortable with them. I didn't see anyone at the DCC using just center ball (though it would be interesting to know what percentage of 9 Ball racks Sarah can run without using side English).
drivermaker
Banned
Williebetmore said:
And what is your ultimate guide that you implement to determine just how much English to use? Unfortunately, I see people using extreme when only 1/4 to 1/2 of a tip will get the job done and get it done very effectively. Too much and you bring all kinds of other factors into the equation, such as, you know what.
D'maker brings up a good point; how much English is enough. When I began taking lessons I thought I had a fair handle on how to use left and right; my instructor immediately had me learn the radical English with the tip far toward the edge of the ball (I didn't even think it was possible when he first showed me). Of course the dreaded deflection appeared and mastering it took quite some time - but it allows you to do things with the cue ball that just aren't natural. You don't want to use it without good cause, but it is a nice weapon to have and feel comfortable with when it is absolutely necessary. I saw 6 or 7 of Efren's matches at DCC and he was spinning that ball like a mother - fast/slow/subtle/radical; it was a pleasure to watch. I did get the feeling that he did not enjoy having to use the radical inside English, but he sure wasn't afraid of it.
Good observation Willie. You are right, you cannot play for hours and hours without using some kind of english. I'm not sure how long you can go without using some english.
I do agree with drivermaker as well, people use extreme english when it is uncalled for. It is hard to determine just how much to use. Even for me it is hard to tell. Just a few years ago I was told about how great using english can be when you are in a jam. It is still new to me. Like I have said before, I stuck to using centerball most of the time. I think learning how to use english is very important but it does complicate the game. Therefore, it is better to keep things as simple as possible.
Willie, Efren is amazing when it comes to using english. He is one of the people that is so amazing you want to try to do what he is doing because he makes it look so easy. Then you find out....it's not.
If Denny Stewart reads this maybe he can explain his method to teaching how much english to use. It would be much appreciated.
Sarah
I do agree with drivermaker as well, people use extreme english when it is uncalled for. It is hard to determine just how much to use. Even for me it is hard to tell. Just a few years ago I was told about how great using english can be when you are in a jam. It is still new to me. Like I have said before, I stuck to using centerball most of the time. I think learning how to use english is very important but it does complicate the game. Therefore, it is better to keep things as simple as possible.
Willie, Efren is amazing when it comes to using english. He is one of the people that is so amazing you want to try to do what he is doing because he makes it look so easy. Then you find out....it's not.
If Denny Stewart reads this maybe he can explain his method to teaching how much english to use. It would be much appreciated.
Sarah
Last edited:
I've never read about any tried and true methods to reduce the time spent learning this. My instructor just had me shoot 60 shots a day with heavy inside and outside - after 2 or 3 months it seemed pretty natural, but I would think there has to be an easier way. Any pool instructors out there want to weigh in on this problem??
drivermaker
Banned
sarahrousey said:
Efren using english is like Joe Satriani playing the guitar. If you don't know who he is, do yourself a favor and get a whole bunch of his CD's and see what a master as work is all about. Efren isn't afraid to do ANYTHING with the CB because he is possibly the ultimate master ever. Why should he be, he's done it all many times before. But Sarah, I can't emphasize enough the words you used above that more players should subscribe to...IT IS BETTER TO KEEP THINGS AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE. I honestly don't know why poolplayers want to complicate this game so badly once they get a little knowledge. This game isn't like getting an advanced degree in college where you're taking it to another level of understanding within the subjects of physics and advanced math. And the question that I always want to ask is, why do pro players like yourself, as well as many other top players, remain english wary and Joe Average wishes to be english crazy? I think the answer to that question is a very simple one also.
drivermaker you speak the truth about Efren. I think to answer your question about why people want to complicate things by using english has to be that 1) it looks really cool when you use alot of english or 2) they think it means they are at a higher level by using it. Some people swear that every shot requires english and others do not. I think using left or right english on every shot is way too complicated. Maybe the use of laminated shafts has changed the way things are done. It makes it much easier to use english than a regular shaft. That is just my opinion though. What is everyone else's opinion about that?
Sarah
Sarah