Possible new rule in Viking Tour events. Opinions wanted, please

[J. Learned Hand]

Let me see if I can add something to this thread. In the old days learning to "rack" was every bit as important as being able to play. In fact, I can attest that my first few road trips saw me play almost perfect (for me) and lose miserably. After the last of those losing trips, I asked a local top player what I needed to do to win. His response, while it may irk many players, was quite simple...learn to rack.

I took this to heart and paid to be taught how to rack in all games to gain an advantage over my opponent. Needless to say, my win percentage went up. Today, many if not all the top pros rack like zeus. That is, they all look tight, but good luck making one. Even on a bar box!!!

With this in mind, consider what Mr. Janis has already said (near the end...the racking problems escalate). Clearly, when the better players get down to end they are pulling out all the stops to get the money. To be sure, not all are doing it...but alot of them are. Accordingly, when two guys are in a match and each are trying to give the "slug" when racking, it can get a little heated. I have personally seen a simple refusal to rack and even a "call out" to the parking lot. In these situations, it is hard to say what to do as a TD. Neither player will agree to rack your own because they will giving away an advantage.

These grumblings led to the eventual creation of the Sardo and its brethren.

In the end, neutral racker is too expensive to hire and I don't think better players will go for a loss because of delay. Namely, those who rack lights out and play pretty sporty to boot. They just would not play. Perhaps, the use of Sardo racks could remedy this. I could see Sardo coming on to the Viking Tour as a sponsor by simply donating the racks and getting a little publicity here and there. JMHO

 

[donny mills]

If you think open 9-ball events are down right now watch what happens when they move to 10-ball. The Amateur and Lower Open players have no shot in these events against better players and the current stats on 10-ball prove both.

Matt, work with me here. I do not want to change the structure and history of the game, I am just looking for opinins on this particular subject. Just a misconduct rule and nothing else.

It has not been iniated yet just considered.

Thanks,

Mj

It's so simple to fix this it's not even funny! 1. Rack ur own. 2. The 2 ball has to go in the back. 3. The 9 doesn't count on the break. Simple! If the 2 has to go in the back then pattern racking is worthless.

 

[donny mills]

A smarter than me Azer sent me this in a PM.



I wish I would have thought of that.

Anonymous, if you want to claim this as yours I will reply stating yes it was your idea. And a good catch at that to.

Mj

You guys are so uneducated about this rack for each other stuff it's amazing. For example why would i want to give a good rack to someone that keeps giving me the worst rack in history "on purpose or on accident" That's why they want a ref to come in.

 

[nympfisher]

set the rack foward to the next diamond , i have seen this in some of the pro trny's , i assume its for a good reason

carl shealy.

p.s.
Mike , did they ever find a place to play in asheville n.c. ?

 

[MikeJanis]

It's so simple to fix this it's not even funny! 1. Rack ur own. 2. The 2 ball has to go in the back. 3. The 9 doesn't count on the break. Simple! If the 2 has to go in the back then pattern racking is worthless.

So you want the rules changed to make the 9 on the snap not count.

Unfortunately that is not the topic of the discussion but your opniion counts as a better player that is known for um, a, racking techniques.

i'm not doggin you on the racking techniques nut the word on the streeets is DO NOT LET DONNY Rack His Own.

Donny, the Viking Tour will not be changing these rules to Rack-Your-Own. < period. Our options have been evaluated on this and that is the decision.

Now having a ref come into the finals after those 2 players have had no problems all tournament long and having to babysit is the problem.

We are talking about weekly regional tour events, not world championships.

Whats you opinion on the proposed rule change and/or the upholding of the delay of game rule ?

Mj

 

[Ste]

Let me see if I can add something to this thread. In the old days learning to "rack" was every bit as important as being able to play. In fact, I can attest that my first few road trips saw me play almost perfect (for me) and lose miserably. After the last of those losing trips, I asked a local top player what I needed to do to win. His response, while it may irk many players, was quite simple...learn to rack.

I took this to heart and paid to be taught how to rack in all games to gain an advantage over my opponent. Needless to say, my win percentage went up. Today, many if not all the top pros rack like zeus. That is, they all look tight, but good luck making one. Even on a bar box!!!

With this in mind, consider what Mr. Janis has already said (near the end...the racking problems escalate). Clearly, when the better players get down to end they are pulling out all the stops to get the money. To be sure, not all are doing it...but alot of them are. Accordingly, when two guys are in a match and each are trying to give the "slug" when racking, it can get a little heated. I have personally seen a simple refusal to rack and even a "call out" to the parking lot. In these situations, it is hard to say what to do as a TD. Neither player will agree to rack your own because they will giving away an advantage.

These grumblings led to the eventual creation of the Sardo and its brethren.

In the end, neutral racker is too expensive to hire and I don't think better players will go for a loss because of delay. Namely, those who rack lights out and play pretty sporty to boot. They just would not play. Perhaps, the use of Sardo racks could remedy this. I could see Sardo coming on to the Viking Tour as a sponsor by simply donating the racks and getting a little publicity here and there. JMHO

I already _know_ what the response to this will be before I say it - but I'll step infront of the shotgun anyway...

If the cloths are fresh enough for Sardos then just tap the tables.

I KNOW a whole load of players in the US have opinions on tapped tables (ahh the balls roll off when they go over the dimples etc...) but before the tapped tables on the EuroTour there was all sorts of sh!t flying about - similar to what MJ has experienced and is trying to eliminate now.

My view is - even though tapped tables do not all hold entirely straight through a tourney (due to players bridges moving the cloth slightly and the general wear depending on the type / manufacture of cloth) but they can be re-tapped if its no longer possible to just flick the balls into a solidly tight rack.

Both players can inspect the rack - if there's gaps because of wear, then its nobody fault - no calling cheat, no fisticuffs - just call the TD to re-tap.

This of course only applies if the cloths are fresh enough.

If not, then Mike I suggest you just follow the rules and your initial thoughts and just penalise the player for not racking.

They know the score before they enter the tourney - they rack opponents racks. If they want to act the ass later in the day and refuse then just penalise them.

We're all consenting adults in tourneys. Time those players act like ones and not sulk like spoilt kids.

(Ste drinks his coffee & listens to the sounds of shotguns loading...)
.

 

[donny mills]

So you want the rules changed to make the 9 on the snap not count.

Unfortunately that is not the topic of the discussion but your opniion counts as a better player that is known for um, a, racking techniques.

i'm not doggin you on the racking techniques nut the word on the streeets is DO NOT LET DONNY Rack His Own.

Donny, the Viking Tour will not be changing these rules to Rack-Your-Own. < period. Our options have been evaluated on this and that is the decision.

Now having a ref come into the finals after those 2 players have had no problems all tournament long and having to babysit is the problem.

We are talking about weekly regional tour events, not world championships.

Whats you opinion on the proposed rule change and/or the upholding of the delay of game rule ?

Mj

Well there is tons of other people besides me that rack good but aren't known for it. I don't really care what rules you make for your tournament since i barely play in any. I was just giving you the simplest way to fix it. If someone is good at racking, well then they deserve to be rewarded for there practice just like playing. Racking is an important part of pool.

As for the delay of game rule... good luck trying to enforce that. I think that is the dumbest idea i've heard of. The reason why is because of the loop hole. I could give my opp a rack that some would accept and most top players won't accept. So what happens if my opp keeps refusing my rack because it's not good, and i claim i can't rack any better. Then what do you do?

 

[MikeJanis]

Well there is tons of other people besides me that rack good but aren't known for it. I don't really care what rules you make for your tournament since i barely play in any. I was just giving you the simplest way to fix it. If someone is good at racking, well then they deserve to be rewarded for there practice just like playing. Racking is an important part of pool.

As for the delay of game rule... good luck trying to enforce that. I think that is the dumbest idea i've heard of. The reason why is because of the loop hole. I could give my opp a rack that some would accept and most top players won't accept. So what happens if my opp keeps refusing my rack because it's not good, and i claim i can't rack any better. Then what do you do?

Then I as the TD either declares the rack acceptable or I remove you from racking the balls and A: Do it myself, B: Have a spectator do it (Its not fair to the spectator because most don't want and shouldn't be responsible) or C: Allow the player to rack for him/herself and the opponent.

The above are just examples. This is a GUARANTEE, I will make an example of any player that pulls this crap again.



Mj

 

[donny mills]

Then I as the TD either declares the rack acceptable or I remove you from racking the balls and A: Do it myself, B: Have a spectator do it (Its not fair to the spectator because most don't want and shouldn't be responsible) or C: Allow the player to rack for him/herself and the opponent.

The above are just examples. This is a GUARANTEE, I will make an example of any player that pulls this crap again.



Mj

Well that's cool. Me personally i will not except a rack unless it's perfect! I thought you said you don't want a td to rack the balls? The corey and ronnie deal was overboard.

 

[MikeJanis]

Well that's cool. Me personally i will not except a rack unless it's perfect! I thought you said you don't want a td to rack the balls? The corey and ronnie deal was overboard.

Yes it was overboard and no I dont want to rack. Especially when I have 2 events going on at the same time. I guess Option C would be my pick in that situation.

Also, just so we are clear. I don't have problem with you or your opinions. Your name was used just as an exemple of a known person that can tweak the rack.

Mj

 

[Nine Ball]

I didn't read the whole thread so I'm not sure where the debate has went to, But in my worthless opinion.....

I've played people in tournaments using the loser rack rule, Given a perfect rack, and been asked to re-rack..

That obviously is a move..

But at the same time there are a lot of people who have no idea how to give a good rack. and when your in a game that you need to be able to break and run, That obviously puts you at a disadvantage.

What I suggest is you continue the loser rack rule, Asking for a re-rack should be allowed, But if the racker feels the rack does not need to be racked again he/she has option to come to the TD and have him inspect the rack.

If TD finds nothing wrong with the rack, Ask the opponent who is breaking what the problem is.. If it's within reason what he/she says then award a re-rack, If it's not rule for a break or forfeit the game.. Not the match, Just the one game..

I don't see too many other ways around the loser racks deal.

Usually if it becomes a problem I just ask my opponent if he wants to rack your own..

In my opinion two respectable players will not have too many problems with racking for each other. But again there are some players who just can't rack good. No offense..

Asking the TD to inspect the rack would be the best deal.. Unless the TD doesn't know what a good rack is either.

Edited to add:

and of course what Donnie suggested. 9 doesn't count on the break...

 

[MikeJanis]

I can see the logic of the TD or his designated person racking for the finals.

If one player doesn't like it...he can either lump it or take home 2nd place money...end of event...end of story and everyone can go home a little earlier.

(-:

I ADMIRE all you go through to try to contribute to pro player's income. Has CD ever smacked you on the forehead like he reportedly did to Charlie in JAX?

Does he have a 3rd dan black belt? He would need it...and a carry permit...if he bopped some guys that I know!!!!

(-:
Jim

Jim

Thanks, No Cd never did anything like that. I have known CD since he was 15?. We have had our share of misunderstandings but nothing physical. Someone would need more than a 3rd to get into it with me. I'm even a little stubborn (in case you haven't noticed) and to me any altercation is Life or Death. There is no in between. I'm just stupid like that. It must come from growing up on the mean streats of Cleveland.

 

[JAM]

...I'm just stupid like that. It must come from growing up on the mean streets of Cleveland.

Hey, my mother was from Cleveland, and she didn't have a mean bone in her body!

I think you're doing the right about about the rack, Mike.

I cannot tell you how many times at tournaments, I have seen the players bickering about the rack.

At the pro event at the SBE one year, I was outside smoking a cigarette, and one of the pro competitors who shall remain unnamed came outside on a break, right smack in the middle of his match.

He said his opponent was rigging the rack on him, and so he was rigging the rack on his opponent. The two of them argued for 5 minutes each and every game about the rack. When the referee would come over, they'd argue about the ref's rack. He said if his opponent is going to stick it to him with a dirty rack, then he was going to fight fire with fire.

Something needs to be done about the rack riggers in 9-ball. I'm glad to see you as a tour director taking charge and trying to make the game better not only for the spectators, but the players as well.

Good luck! :wink: :grin:

JAM

 

[MikeJanis]

Hey, my mother was from Cleveland, and she didn't have a mean bone in her body!

I think you're doing the right about about the rack, Mike.

I cannot tell you how many times at tournaments, I have seen the players bickering about the rack.

At the pro event at the SBE one year, I was outside smoking a cigarette, and one of the pro competitors who shall remain unnamed came outside on a break, right smack in the middle of his match.

He said his opponent was rigging the rack on him, and so he was rigging the rack on his opponent. The two of them argued for 5 minutes each and every game about the rack. When the referee would come over, they'd argue about the ref's rack. He said if his opponent is going to stick it to him with a dirty rack, then he was going to fight fire with fire.

Something needs to be done about the rack riggers in 9-ball. I'm glad to see you as a tour director taking charge and trying to make the game better not only for the spectators, but the players as well.

Good luck! :wink: :grin:

JAM

Thanks Jam.

What part of Cleveland was she from ?

unfortunately for me I had to learn at a youg age something called fight or flight. To this day I still do not know how to run. Sometimes though, I really wish I did. Now I believe in two new things in my old age. #1, I would rather get caught with it than without it. #2. shoot 1st ask questions later.

 

[MikeJanis]

I know this is way off topic but.....

Did anyone ever play the video ardcade game called Galaga ?

Read this then look at the green thing in the picture. I think I need some sleep.


• Hubble telescope to look at amateur astronomer's 'cosmic ghost'

from: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080805/sc_nm/cosmic_ghost_dc
Amateur astronomer spies gassy "cosmic ghost" Tue Aug 5, 3:51 PM ET

CHICAGO (Reuters) - A Dutch primary school teacher and amateur astronomer has discovered what some are calling a "cosmic ghost," a strange, gaseous object with a hole in the middle that may represent a new class of astronomical object.






















Doesn't the Green think in this picture look like the space ships in Galaga ?

 

[Nine Ball]

I know this is way off topic but.....

Did anyone ever play the video ardcade game called Galaga ?

Read this then look at the green thing in the picture. I think I need some sleep.


? Hubble telescope to look at amateur astronomer's 'cosmic ghost'

from: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080805/sc_nm/cosmic_ghost_dc
Amateur astronomer spies gassy "cosmic ghost" Tue Aug 5, 3:51 PM ET

CHICAGO (Reuters) - A Dutch primary school teacher and amateur astronomer has discovered what some are calling a "cosmic ghost," a strange, gaseous object with a hole in the middle that may represent a new class of astronomical object.






















Doesn't the Green think in this picture look like the space ships in Galaga ?

Not that this matters but my buddy is a Galaga hero.. Who wants action.. heh I play the older Golden Tee arcade golf game pretty sporty too.. There used to be a good bit of action on that in the pool room here in town years back.

 

[ShootingArts]

Post five

Somebody correct me if I am wrong but isn't Mike acknowledging that he uses illegal pattern racking himself here? Are the rules different on the Viking Tour or is pattern racking illegal there too? Pattern racking is one of my beefs with my opponent racking. If I am giving a true random rack with the exception of the one and nine ball and my opponent is pattern racking I am conceding an advantage.

This is very pertinent to the thread as if whomever racks, winner or loser, is pattern racking it has a significant effect on the game. One of the things I strongly favor in nine ball is pattern racking with only two racking orders being legal, a standard rack or the mirror image of that rack, breaker's choice of rack order however the rules usually specify a random rack.

Mike, not trying to jump on your case here but I would appreciate a plain statement as to if pattern racking is legal or illegal on the Viking Tour. Unless it is specifically stated as legal then some people pattern racking is an issue if the loser racks just as much as slug racking is an issue. I would protest a person consistently pattern racking on me unless it is specifically legal or to be honest I would probably shift to pattern racking also but if everyone is going to pattern rack I want the rules to say it is legal.

Sorry to open this can of worms but it is part of the loser racks issue.

Hu

Why we will not go to Rack-Your-Own rules. Just my opinion.


A: The rules have to be changed to not allow the 9-ball on the break for the win if it goes in the back corner pockets. This really takes the fun out of being a player and a spectator alike.

B: Ball placement. In Rack-Your-Own the player never seems to change the ball placement around in the rack. I know if I am racking I always look to see how my opponent is breaking and if there are any patterns in their ball position after the rack. When I start to notice patterns, as the racker I simply change the ball arrangement to adjust for the pattern. No matter what, I always do my best to give my opponent a fair rack not matter what knowledge I have and I expect the same in return.

As the racker or most times loser of the game I feel it should be my option to change the ball pattern instead of trying to manipulate the rack to give my opponent a bad rack. This seems fair.

C: Even with Racking-Your-Own Rules I have seen many players inspect the rack and have the opponent re-rack over and over again. It really doesn't matter who is racking when you come across a player like this. They are simply trying to shark/stall their opponent and gain a psychological advantage.

 

[hilla_hilla]

RACK YOUR OWN!!! :thumbup:

With rack your own, have the 9 ball spotted if it is made on the break.

 

[MikeJanis]

Somebody correct me if I am wrong but isn't Mike acknowledging that he uses illegal pattern racking himself here? Are the rules different on the Viking Tour or is pattern racking illegal there too? Pattern racking is one of my beefs with my opponent racking. If I am giving a true random rack with the exception of the one and nine ball and my opponent is pattern racking I am conceding an advantage.

This is very pertinent to the thread as if whomever racks, winner or loser, is pattern racking it has a significant effect on the game. One of the things I strongly favor in nine ball is pattern racking with only two racking orders being legal, a standard rack or the mirror image of that rack, breaker's choice of rack order however the rules usually specify a random rack.

Mike, not trying to jump on your case here but I would appreciate a plain statement as to if pattern racking is legal or illegal on the Viking Tour. Unless it is specifically stated as legal then some people pattern racking is an issue if the loser racks just as much as slug racking is an issue. I would protest a person consistently pattern racking on me unless it is specifically legal or to be honest I would probably shift to pattern racking also but if everyone is going to pattern rack I want the rules to say it is legal.

Sorry to open this can of worms but it is part of the loser racks issue.

Hu

HU, ummmmmmm, It is very late for me and I am almost sleeping at my computer but isn't moving the balls around in the rack the opposite of "PATTERN RACKING" ?

Unless I missed something Pattern Racking only comes into play when a player is racking for themselves and keeps the balls in the exact sam position withing the rack. Which of course is something I am against.

Mj

 

[ironman]

good idea, sounds like a bunch of crying and whining. what are they, too good to rack or what?

I think you nailed it here. Rack the dam balls.

Too many players are coming in and trying to act as though they are in the finals of the US OPEN or something to that nature. Most are just looking for attention and others are just trying to act as if they are in control.

Too many of the better players need to come in, just play and play as everyone else does. Give them an inch and they will take a mile.

On our tour, you rack for the opponet. If both agree to play rack your own, it is okay with me.

When they start the crybaby routione and need a racker, that is me and that never happens twice. I rack em and they can study all they want, but, when I say hittem, they have no recourse at all.