Posted by the VNEA league coordinator

[BRussell]

Balls pocketed on a safety are illegally pocketed balls.

Always have been. Always will be.

It annoys me that most rule books don't explicitly say this. Would really clear up the confusion.

Illegally pocketed? In leagues that count balls made, if you make your own ball on a safe it still counts as a point for you. And of course it’s very common in (league or amateur) 8-ball to make an opponent’s ball on a safety, like when one is blocking a pocket. Is that an illegally pocketed ball? “Illegally pocketed” sounds like a foul.

 

[mrshifty]

I was playing in a tournament where someone did just this on an open table. I thought it was wrong, so I asked a friend of mine that is a certified VNEA ref. He had his opinion, but had never had it happen to him, so he e-mailed the head ref of the VNEA, who said that you could indeed select your group of balls by calling a ball in a pocket, and calling a safe on the same shot. I completely disagree with it, but that is the rules according to the head VNEA ref. Unless of course they have changed it in the last couple of years.

 

[thehoneybadger]

I was playing in a tournament where someone did just this on an open table. I thought it was wrong, so I asked a friend of mine that is a certified VNEA ref. He had his opinion, but had never had it happen to him, so he e-mailed the head ref of the VNEA, who said that you could indeed select your group of balls by calling a ball in a pocket, and calling a safe on the same shot. I completely disagree with it, but that is the rules according to the head VNEA ref. Unless of course they have changed it in the last couple of years.

That's what I'm saying I've had it called both ways In VNEA tournament play

 

[easy-e]

That's what I'm saying I've had it called both ways In VNEA tournament play

I agree with you that it needs to be better understood by the refs, but I also think that the rules are clear enough for me.

 

[sbpoolleague]

Illegally pocketed? In leagues that count balls made, if you make your own ball on a safe it still counts as a point for you. And of course it’s very common in (league or amateur) 8-ball to make an opponent’s ball on a safety, like when one is blocking a pocket. Is that an illegally pocketed ball? “Illegally pocketed” sounds like a foul.

The BCAPL rules (which are by far the most complete pool rules in the world) has a good definition for "illegally pocketed ball"

Illegally Pocketed Ball
An object ball is illegally pocketed when:
a. a foul is committed on the shot in which the ball was pocketed;
b. in call shot games, a called ball goes into a pocket other than the called pocket;
c. it is defined as illegally pocketed by specific game rules;
d. in call shot games, a non-obvious shot that is not called.

So in 8-ball, a ball made on a safety is an illegally pocketed ball (not a foul unless another foul was committed), but it still counts for the shooter (ie. it does not get spotted and counts as a point for the shooter in leagues that count balls made).

 

[Pelican1989]

i find people in this thread incredibly silly

people are right that in SOME rule formats, there is specifically NO WAY to "call a ball and pocket" and "call a safe" at the same time. Thats simple. Some agree that this is a sensible rule. Others might not. JUST BECAUSE you think it "makes sense" to NOT be able to do both, doesn't mean "you cant call a safe and a pocket at the same time"

where in the VNEA rules does it say ""you cant call a safe and a pocket at the same time"??

nowhere, exactly

so why can't you say "3 in the side, safety" and then shoot?

why? because you can't in BCA, or APA or NAPA apparently...so....??? who cares? we arent talking about those leagues...

just because something seems common in other rules doesn't "make it a rule" in all leagues

PERSONALLY i think you should be able to call a safety on ANY shot, and NOT continue your turn no matter what, I think thats a good strategic part of pool. For this reason I like BCA over APA on that specific difference

in apa i've seen way too many times a player accomplishes a perfect safety, hiding behind the 8 for example, yet the contacted ball bounces...and that player gets screwed over and has to shoot snoookered on their own safety? thats stupid

i also see no LOGICAL reason why it wouldnt be a nice strategic part of a game to e able to call your set AND play safe...why not? the only i seem to be seeing is because the rules say so...what aspect of teh game is lost by this???

if a players gets a good break and gets to shoot again, why can't he earn the reward of a set and a safety if he shoots one successfully??

 

[hang-the-9]

PERSONALLY i think you should be able to call a safety on ANY shot, and NOT continue your turn no matter what, I think thats a good strategic part of pool. For this reason I like BCA over APA on that specific difference

in apa i've seen way too many times a player accomplishes a perfect safety, hiding behind the 8 for example, yet the contacted ball bounces...and that player gets screwed over and has to shoot snoookered on their own safety? thats stupid

In the APA you can't call a safe and pocket a ball, they play no called shots, so if a ball goes in, you keep shooting. And that is exactly why you can't do that, you are not calling anything in APA, so if it goes in it counts as a shot, not a safe. When you play a "safe" in normal 8 ball rules, you are not playing a called pocket, so you give up your turn, not because you happened to call a safe, but because you did not call a shot to make a ball. Pocketing a ball on a safe is the same thing as pocketing a ball into a pocket you did not call for the shot. If you are calling a pocket for a ball, you are not calling a safe. And if you are calling a safe you are not calling a pocket. If you can do two things on a single shot, you would then be able to call two pockets just in case you missed one. Same thing as calling a shot and a safe at the same time.

 

[sbpoolleague]

In the APA you can't call a safe and pocket a ball, they play no called shots, so if a ball goes in, you keep shooting. And that is exactly why you can't do that, you are not calling anything in APA, so if it goes in it counts as a shot, not a safe. When you play a "safe" in normal 8 ball rules, you are not playing a called pocket, so you give up your turn, not because you happened to call a safe, but because you did not call a shot to make a ball. Pocketing a ball on a safe is the same thing as pocketing a ball into a pocket you did not call for the shot. If you are calling a pocket for a ball, you are not calling a safe. And if you are calling a safe you are not calling a pocket. If you can do two things on a single shot, you would then be able to call two pockets just in case you missed one. Same thing as calling a shot and a safe at the same time.

Obvious shots are, in almost all versions of 8-ball rules, not required to be called. THAT is why you call a safety. To give up your turn even though an obvious shot goes in.

 

[easy-e]

i find people in this thread incredibly silly

people are right that in SOME rule formats, there is specifically NO WAY to "call a ball and pocket" and "call a safe" at the same time. Thats simple. Some agree that this is a sensible rule. Others might not. JUST BECAUSE you think it "makes sense" to NOT be able to do both, doesn't mean "you cant call a safe and a pocket at the same time"

where in the VNEA rules does it say ""you cant call a safe and a pocket at the same time"??

nowhere, exactly

so why can't you say "3 in the side, safety" and then shoot?

why? because you can't in BCA, or APA or NAPA apparently...so....??? who cares? we arent talking about those leagues...

just because something seems common in other rules doesn't "make it a rule" in all leagues

PERSONALLY i think you should be able to call a safety on ANY shot, and NOT continue your turn no matter what, I think thats a good strategic part of pool. For this reason I like BCA over APA on that specific difference

in apa i've seen way too many times a player accomplishes a perfect safety, hiding behind the 8 for example, yet the contacted ball bounces...and that player gets screwed over and has to shoot snoookered on their own safety? thats stupid

i also see no LOGICAL reason why it wouldnt be a nice strategic part of a game to e able to call your set AND play safe...why not? the only i seem to be seeing is because the rules say so...what aspect of teh game is lost by this???

if a players gets a good break and gets to shoot again, why can't he earn the reward of a set and a safety if he shoots one successfully??

Did you read the rules? You sound stupid. And arrogant.

 

[Pelican1989]

In the APA you can't call a safe and pocket a ball, they play no called shots, so if a ball goes in, you keep shooting. And that is exactly why you can't do that, you are not calling anything in APA, so if it goes in it counts as a shot, not a safe. When you play a "safe" in normal 8 ball rules, you are not playing a called pocket, so you give up your turn, not because you happened to call a safe, but because you did not call a shot to make a ball. Pocketing a ball on a safe is the same thing as pocketing a ball into a pocket you did not call for the shot. If you are calling a pocket for a ball, you are not calling a safe. And if you are calling a safe you are not calling a pocket. If you can do two things on a single shot, you would then be able to call two pockets just in case you missed one. Same thing as calling a shot and a safe at the same time.

yes i understand that is the way it is in BCA and some other leagues

that doesn't imply thats how it is in all league tho right?

 

[sbpoolleague]

i find people in this thread incredibly silly

people are right that in SOME rule formats, there is specifically NO WAY to "call a ball and pocket" and "call a safe" at the same time. Thats simple. Some agree that this is a sensible rule. Others might not. JUST BECAUSE you think it "makes sense" to NOT be able to do both, doesn't mean "you cant call a safe and a pocket at the same time"

where in the VNEA rules does it say ""you cant call a safe and a pocket at the same time"??

nowhere, exactly

so why can't you say "3 in the side, safety" and then shoot?

why? because you can't in BCA, or APA or NAPA apparently...so....??? who cares? we arent talking about those leagues...

just because something seems common in other rules doesn't "make it a rule" in all leagues

PERSONALLY i think you should be able to call a safety on ANY shot, and NOT continue your turn no matter what, I think thats a good strategic part of pool. For this reason I like BCA over APA on that specific difference

in apa i've seen way too many times a player accomplishes a perfect safety, hiding behind the 8 for example, yet the contacted ball bounces...and that player gets screwed over and has to shoot snoookered on their own safety? thats stupid

i also see no LOGICAL reason why it wouldnt be a nice strategic part of a game to e able to call your set AND play safe...why not? the only i seem to be seeing is because the rules say so...what aspect of teh game is lost by this???

if a players gets a good break and gets to shoot again, why can't he earn the reward of a set and a safety if he shoots one successfully??

Because BY DEFINITION, called shots and safety shots are mutually exclusive.

The only problems here are...

1. that the VNEA rules are way too thin and they do not include the definition of a called shot, and...

2. people like you that are can't understand the obvious

 

[Dockter]

I was part of that thread and gave some pushback as I don't think that's how the rule was intended but then they shut down the post on me.

I confirmed with a local ref that this would be allowed basically because there is no rule saying it's not allowed.

My argument is I don't believe a safety is considered a legally pocketed ball but most disagreed. I was instructed that if I wanted to do so I would say "three ball in the corner, but I'm playing a safe" which seems crazy to me. I asked why in that case I can't say "3 ball in the corner and 8 in the side" as I'm legally pocketing both but that's when they closed the thread.

 

[Dockter]

Because BY DEFINITION, called shots and safety shots are mutually exclusive.

The only problems here are...

1. that the VNEA rules are way too thin and they do not include the definition of a called shot, and...

2. idiots like you that are too stupid to understand the obvious

You must have read most of that thread as I kept using the 3 ball as an example lol. There is no way this is a known rule, as I've never seen it happen and this is a huge advantage to the breaker in my opinion.


Sorry, SB, I just noticed I quoted the wrong person.

 

[Fore Rail]

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=322880&highlight=vnea

 

[BmoreMoney]

Perfect example why " Real Pool Players " look down on league players and don't think of it as Real Pool.

 

[sbpoolleague]

The VNEA rules clearly have used the World Standardized Rules as a backbone, and unfortunately they trimmed too much and allowed confusion to set in. If I were running a VNEA league I would contact the head office and ask them to beef up their rule set.

The World Standardized Rules clearly state that you cannot call a ball on a safety shot.

 

[Skippy27]

I actually would prefer the rule the APA has where you can't call safe and pocket a ball to being able to both call a ball and call a safe on the same shot.

What is this you speak of? Is this a masters thing as there is no calling Safe in APA 8 or 9 ball? I have not played Masters so I can't speak to the rules of that format.

Non-Masters, you can call a safe/defensive shot as a courtesy to your score keepers before you shoot, but if you make one of your balls, you keep shooting. You can even earn more than 1 defensive mark in an inning by doing such.

 

[chefjeff]

While I agree with what you are saying, the vnea refs have been instructed that it is
legal to designate your group, and call a safe on the same shot.

I asked those refs, at the State tourney, what they discussed at their pre-tourney meeting. She said, What meeting?...We don't have a meeting or discuss anything.

They don't even get together to discuss ANY of the rules of ANY of the procedures for determining those.

I was disappointed, to say the least.



Jeff Livingston

 

[hang-the-9]

What is this you speak of? Is this a masters thing as there is no calling Safe in APA 8 or 9 ball? I have not played Masters so I can't speak to the rules of that format.

Non-Masters, you can call a safe/defensive shot as a courtesy to your score keepers before you shoot, but if you make one of your balls, you keep shooting. You can even earn more than 1 defensive mark in an inning by doing such.

You can call a safe in APA but if you make a ball, it's still your turn. In normal 8 ball rules and most other leagues you can call a safe and pocket a ball.

In this messed up VNEA rule I would prefer APA rules of not being able to pocket a ball on a safe vs being able to call both, call a pocket and call a safe on the same shot. If you called the pocket, you made your shot and you keep shooting. If you call a safe, even though you made a ball, you did not call a pocket so you give up your turn. Doing both is crazy talk.

I don't even see any confusion with the rules aside from the refs not being able to understand them. A "Legal Shot" is not the same thing as a "Legal Called Pocket" when it comes to figuring out if you made a ball or not. You can make a legal shot in many ways, you can only make a legal called shot in one way.

 

[Island Drive]

"VNEA rule question: Player breaks makes a ball, he wants to call a ball in the pocket to establish his objects balls and play a safe so he does not have to shoot again, is this legal?
Yes this is a perfectly legal shot, like any safety shot you are giving up the table to your opponent but you will have established your object balls. He does not have to shoot again!"



This was posted on the Leagues facebook page.

I don't agree with this interpretation of the rules, am I wrong?

No, your not wrong. Every league, every 8 ball match in a local bar has different rules. Rules are often created under the heat of the moment when the cocktail/pool player/ego incident arrives, where the more dominate/local male/female... creates a rule to benefit their moment, to win that game. All leagues have different rules, often these rules are in place for the vendor not the sport, this is an area that will never be addressed across the board till the game becomes a true sport, supporting the game, not the politics of the moment. Cyclops balls are a good example of the vendor creep. But hey,it's a business and they have to look at the bottom line to be successful.