Potential pro caliber players in APA league

APA Operator said:
I didn't mean to set you off there, Maniac.

I can think of at least four explanations for what you observed. None of them involve the mathematical formula. A purely mathematical formula wouldn't produce this result, and if someone told you it did they would be lying.

The first explanation is the one you hinted at, that the LO was doing something shady to favor his/her team. That's a no-no, and I have no respect for an operator who would do that, but unfortunately there are some less-than-reputable operators in the network. Oh, and the shadiest thing they could do is to not let the player on your team drop to a 1 earlier. They couldn't force the player on their own team down (and it is possible to win a match and go down).

The second explanation is technically the same action as the first (not let the player on your team go down), but for a different reason. It may have been the operator's policy not to let new players drop immediately. This would require that the policy had been changed prior to the other player joining the operator's team, or that the operator simply didn't catch it with his/her own player.

Third, perhaps the operator had reason to suspect that your team was trying to "make" your new player a 1. Whether the suspicion was justified or not, in this case (and in the policy case above) the operator is trying to protect the system. I have teams in my league who know that if they bring on a new player, that player will never be a 1 in 9-Ball or a 2 in 8-Ball. They know it because I've told them. If they want a player with the lowest skill level possible, they have to find one that's already established.

The fourth reason involves some entry error, but I can't describe it without divulging information I'm not allowed to divulge.

It's entirely possible that your team got the short end of the stick from a less-than-reputable operator. It's also possible that the LO was trying to do the right thing and because you didn't understand it, it looked shady. I don't know enough about the specifics to say either way. I just wanted you to know that there are multiple POSSIBLE legitimate explanations.
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You didn't "set me off" because like I said earlier, it mattered then but now, I couldn't care less.

As for your above mentioned scenarios, every one you gave still was a discredit to the APA, IMO.

Scenario #1) Would have been totally unacceptable, and knowing the LO the way I do (and by his reputation throughout his league area and surrounding areas), I am 100% positive that this was the case.

Scenario#2) There was NO policy that was changed. Period.

Scenario#3) A LO should NOT "suspect" that a team is trying something dishonest and act on it without some kind of proof. First off, there should be a complaint from the opposing teams (which there was not because ANYONE with any APA skill-level knowledge could have watched our girl play and immediately known she was SL1 material). Then, let the computer do its job in calculating the skill level, then if there is a REASON to suspect foul-play, go to the place where the suspected player is playing and WATCH that player in action. "Assumption is the mother of all f*ck-ups" I believe is how the saying goes.

Scenario#4) Entry error??? On whose part??? As team captain, I kept (I scorekept for ALL matches that I wasn't playing in) meticulous scoresheets, so any entry error would have had to come from the LO or the National office. Either way, it screwed us over. Face it, our girl should have been playing as a SL1 after week one, week two at the latest. And I'm not so sure that the LO's girl SHOULD have gone down after week one after WINNING her match in normal innings for a SL2. If I was a LO, I would never move any new player DOWN that has won their first match until seeing what happens in the next match or two, high innings or not. There was either mistakes made or there was some dishonest things happening with this and there is no way to say there wasn't from a league that has a scoring "system". A true system, if left to do it's job the way it was intended, would not have done things the way they happened back then.

It's all water under the bridge now, but it kind of gnaws at me that you just won't come out and admit that it was NOT handled correctly, even after I contacted the National office. Your bias towards the APA is so slanted that you can't seem to admit that there are "shady" things going on by league operators all around the country. There have been just too many horror stories being told on this forum alone, and we of this forum are just a very small percentage of APA players. I bet if you polled the entire membership you would get literally thousands of stories of shady goings-on.

Maniac
 
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cardiac kid said:
Hey Op, doesn't APA call their handicap system the "Equalizer"? :shrug: :scratchhead: Just couldn't resist!

Lyn
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Yes, and carpenters call their tool a "level", though the result is often not perfectly level. It just gets them closer to the desired result.
 
Maniac said:
There have been just too many horror stories being told on this forum alone, and we of this forum are just a very small percentage of APA players. I bet if you polled the entire membership you would get literally thousands of stories of shady goings-on.

Maniac
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And according to a few around here(PDX, not AZB), I'm too good to be in the APA. Also, if you asked people, there are tons of sandbaggers in the league. I find it closer to the truth that there are tons of whiners(in pool in general). I just like to play, give up spots and see people that I've met as long as 8 years ago when I started.

For the most part, the system does a pretty good job of equalizing/handicapping. The exceptions are for the 7s and 2s, which are at the edges of the bell curve - the good 7s running over anybody and the bad 2s not being able to make more than a few balls in a game without help.

The only problem I have is that I've now become tired of having to find a new team every session or two. My girlfriend's team may be able to fit me in for a bit, so that's where I'll probably stick until that, too, becomes difficult.
 
Banks said:
And according to a few around here(PDX, not AZB), I'm too good to be in the APA. Also, if you asked people, there are tons of sandbaggers in the league. I find it closer to the truth that there are tons of whiners(in pool in general). I just like to play, give up spots and see people that I've met as long as 8 years ago when I started.

For the most part, the system does a pretty good job of equalizing/handicapping. The exceptions are for the 7s and 2s, which are at the edges of the bell curve - the good 7s running over anybody and the bad 2s not being able to make more than a few balls in a game without help.

The only problem I have is that I've now become tired of having to find a new team every session or two. My girlfriend's team may be able to fit me in for a bit, so that's where I'll probably stick until that, too, becomes difficult.
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I hear ya Banks! I had to quit our 9-ball team this session because our team limits were just too high.

And....FTR.....I am not at all bashing the APA. It is what it is. Hell, I still play in it twice a week. A person just can't deny that there are shady things in their operating procedures that have happened to many a member that there is no logical explanation for.

Shoot 'em straight, my friend!!!

Maniac
 
Maniac said:
I hear ya Banks! I had to quit our 9-ball team this session because our team limits were just too high.

And....FTR.....I am not at all bashing the APA. It is what it is. Hell, I still play in it twice a week. A person just can't deny that there are shady things in their operating procedures that have happened to many a member that there is no logical explanation for.

Shoot 'em straight, my friend!!!

Maniac
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I completely agree. I just keep getting suckered into playing with my friends on teams. I'm all like, "I just want to get in a few matches" and then all of a sudden I'm showing up every week and wanting to play.

At least in my Monday division, we've got 8 diamond barboxes at home and half of the locations have the same. It has been pretty nice, Thursday BCA on diamond barboxes, Monday APA on them, too.. with our regional events played on them for both APA and BCA(BCA in 3 weeks!).

Stay warm in Texas. :smile:
 
up until a couple of years ago (I believe 08) the best player in our area played APA. He is/was a multiple time state winner, and a national Masters winner in VNEA (9ball). He recently cashed in every event at the Southern Classic, and before that had done so at multiple Derbys (including a top 10 in 9ball at one DCC). The reason he was booted from APA had to do with earnings from pool. A couple ESPN speed pool wins were the deciding factor.

BTW, I love playing against him (still do in ACS), and learn something EVERY time. I no longer play APA mainly because of the 23 limit (stopped in 08). If a team full of 5s can't play against a team full of 7s then the handicap system doesn't work, and the 5s aren't 5s or the 7s aren't 7s.....

I've seen other APA posts about a player from IL who's won APA nationals a few times. I have met Jeff S. He's a really good guy who's a working man that shoots GREAT pool. Trust me, you want that type of guy playing in your league. Seeing where your game can get to can be big motivation for other players!! I guess what I'm saying is, let them PLAY. If pool isn't making more than half their incomes, then they are not "pros".
 
APA Operator said:
Yes, and carpenters call their tool a "level", though the result is often not perfectly level. It just gets them closer to the desired result.
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Operator,

Really do appreciate your input to the APA threads. Nothing in life is perfect. The only handicapping system I'm sure is totally fair is NONE. As that has become impossible to achieve, guess we're stuck with what is available. Really prefer to play BCAPL / ACS. More of a challenge to me.

As you are a business person, understand your desire to recoup your investment into an APA Charter. Some operators don't care about the game. It is strictly a business. Some operators do care. About the game and the players. You appear to be more on the second side. Thanks again.

Lyn
 
APA Operator said:
Because I signed a franchise agreement that says I agree not to divulge the details of the handicapping system. Those details are considered trade secrets by APA, and regardless of whether the information is actually a well-kept secret, I could lose my franchise for discussing it.
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Thank you for that answer. I seem to recall prior thread several months ago in which a former LO said there was no such agreement, at least not when they were an LO, but I may have misunderstood
I understand that there is an agreement not to discuss it, but can you confirm that is the system made available on the internet by 'Baranada' some years ago
 
Celophanewrap said:
Thank you for that answer. I seem to recall prior thread several months ago in which a former LO said there was no such agreement, at least not when they were an LO, but I may have misunderstood
I understand that there is an agreement not to discuss it, but can you confirm that is the system made available on the internet by 'Baranada' some years ago
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I am not familiar with what was made available or by whom, so I cannot confirm anything. I can say that nothing posted "some years ago" would be 100% accurate today.
 
APA Operator said:
I am not familiar with what was made available or by whom, so I cannot confirm anything. I can say that nothing posted "some years ago" would be 100% accurate today.
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Well, it uses the term 'applied score' or some form or that term several times throughout the explanation of the system. It shows a 10 point scale of each skill level ranking (2 - 7) and discusses win percentages and innings played. I'd be happy to send it to you for your opinion. But more to the point - what CAN you tell us? This is AZBilliard, as far as we know your given name is APA Operator, so you're reasonably annonymous here. I understand you can't say , "I'm Joe, and I'm the APA League Operator in Alabama and this is how it works..." But really, how's it work?
 
Maniac said:
Hell, they have a "chance" in a non-handicapped league.

You're marketing a false sense of security.

Maniac
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Yes, they have a "chance" in a non-handicapped league, and they have a "chance" in a handicapped league. But only an idiot wouldn't know the difference. You're not an idiot, so why would you take a swipe like that?
 
Maniac said:
You didn't "set me off" because like I said earlier, it mattered then but now, I couldn't care less.

As for your above mentioned scenarios, every one you gave still was a discredit to the APA, IMO.

Scenario #1) Would have been totally unacceptable, and knowing the LO the way I do (and by his reputation throughout his league area and surrounding areas), I am 100% positive that this was the case.

Scenario#2) There was NO policy that was changed. Period.

Scenario#3) A LO should NOT "suspect" that a team is trying something dishonest and act on it without some kind of proof. First off, there should be a complaint from the opposing teams (which there was not because ANYONE with any APA skill-level knowledge could have watched our girl play and immediately known she was SL1 material). Then, let the computer do its job in calculating the skill level, then if there is a REASON to suspect foul-play, go to the place where the suspected player is playing and WATCH that player in action. "Assumption is the mother of all f*ck-ups" I believe is how the saying goes.

Scenario#4) Entry error??? On whose part??? As team captain, I kept (I scorekept for ALL matches that I wasn't playing in) meticulous scoresheets, so any entry error would have had to come from the LO or the National office. Either way, it screwed us over. Face it, our girl should have been playing as a SL1 after week one, week two at the latest. And I'm not so sure that the LO's girl SHOULD have gone down after week one after WINNING her match in normal innings for a SL2. If I was a LO, I would never move any new player DOWN that has won their first match until seeing what happens in the next match or two, high innings or not. There was either mistakes made or there was some dishonest things happening with this and there is no way to say there wasn't from a league that has a scoring "system". A true system, if left to do it's job the way it was intended, would not have done things the way they happened back then.

It's all water under the bridge now, but it kind of gnaws at me that you just won't come out and admit that it was NOT handled correctly, even after I contacted the National office. Your bias towards the APA is so slanted that you can't seem to admit that there are "shady" things going on by league operators all around the country. There have been just too many horror stories being told on this forum alone, and we of this forum are just a very small percentage of APA players. I bet if you polled the entire membership you would get literally thousands of stories of shady goings-on.

Maniac
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Dude, you're the one who emphasized ???. I was simply trying to provide some possible explanations. And since the VERY FIRST explanation I offered was that there were some shady things going on, I think you are completely off base in your last paragraph. I even mentioned it again later in my post, but apparently that's not enough for you.

I have been nothing but completely up-front in my posts in this forum. I tell people what I can tell them about how things work. I tell them when it is that I can't tell them something. I tell them I can't make a judgement either way without ALL the information. That's not bias, that's the complete opposite of bias, based on years of experience dealing with one side of the story. Which, by the way, is what you would have in those thousands of shady goings-on stories. One side. The side from the people who don't know the details of how things work, who think they know how things should work but have never actually done the job. Your side.

I've heard some stories from my own players about things that I've supposedly done. Most, if not all of them are absurd, but I can understand how they come about. It's a consequence of keeping people in the dark about the handicap system. The less they know, they more they speculate. I have to live with that, and it's ok because I'm comfortable in my own skin.
 
Mike129 said:
APA 8 ball rankings should go to 9 also, I never understood why they do not
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Because if they did, they'd have to raise the team total limit...and that would mean 2s and 3s would have a hard time getting on a team, as the average player rating would be 5 or so...2s and 3s (entry level casual players) are the target group the franchises want to go after; that's why the thing is set up to limit your firepower. As your team members handicaps climb, you have to break up the team and get newbies in (often creating new teams around your graduated/improved players)--that's how the cycle works and where the money is; it makes the franchise to grow. The problem with tight, limited handicap systems is that there's a big incentive to dump to keep your team together and strong. No matter how complicated and secret the logarythm is, eventually the population figures out ways to manipulate it.

Here in Cyprus, the 8 Ball league doesn't do handicaps. The teams have a limit on total number of players/alternates, no handicaps. Two divisions A and B, where the top 6 B teams advance to A division, the bottom 6 A division teams are relegated back down to B division after each session. Matches are race to 3 alternating break, then two Scotch Doubles matches. First team to win three matches wins. There are players of all levels on all teams, from D level to AA. I love it, but wish the races were a little longer...tends to be a break/run contest, so the lag is pretty important...
 
cardiac kid said:
Operator,

Really do appreciate your input to the APA threads. Nothing in life is perfect. The only handicapping system I'm sure is totally fair is NONE. As that has become impossible to achieve, guess we're stuck with what is available. Really prefer to play BCAPL / ACS. More of a challenge to me.

As you are a business person, understand your desire to recoup your investment into an APA Charter. Some operators don't care about the game. It is strictly a business. Some operators do care. About the game and the players. You appear to be more on the second side. Thanks again.

Lyn
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You're welcome. And there's something interesting in your second paragraph. I've always taken the approach that the best way to be successful in the business is to care about the game and the players, and try to keep it as fair for everyone as I can. The funny thing is that those who don't approach it that way are the very people who simply enter data into the system and nothing else. They are the ones with sandbagging problems, yet there are some members here who are proponents of that mode of operation and think anything beyond that is simply wrong. Sometimes you can't win no matter what you do. :o

I don't begrudge anyone their personal preferences, and I don't knock other league organizations. I'm sure those organizations all try to do what they think is best, just like we do. Good luck to you in all your pool endeavors, whatever they may be.
 
APA Operator said:
No, I can't. And by "can't", I mean "won't".




Yes, I do. Not often (probably less than 1%), but until someone comes up with a perfect way of modeling human behavior (drunk/sober, honest/dishonest, happy/sad, tired/fresh, etc.), there will always be reasons why a computed number could be off.

The number I'm looking for is the honest/sober/fresh... number. Unfortunately, that stuff isn't recorded on the scoresheet, nor can it be accounted for in a computer system that measures playing ability.
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The number you *should* be looking for is only the honest number. Sober and fresh are (should be) irrelevant. The handicap is based on your performance, not your potential. Some people *only* play drunk or well buzzed. Some people never get good sleep. If one of the many thousand raging alcoholics in the league showed up sober for a change and shot the lights out, or shot terrible, this should be treated as exactly what it is: one score of their last 20 used to compute their average. How people conduct their lives and organize themselves for competition ought not be of *any* interest to league operators. As Maniac pointed out, this is where the system breaks down. I believe that most people play in the playoffs in pretty much the same state they do in their regular weekly matches. If someone decides the playoffs are a big deal to them and their team, and they take extra measures to get a good sleep, watch the alcohol intake, eat well and practice their game before...and all this contributes to an above average performance, I say bravo to them! They really did what they needed to do to come through in the clutch. This score may be one of their best. Sadly, it may also be the only performance their opponent, the opposing team, and *most* likely the league operator ever sees. It is a sad thing when people rush to judge this type of person as a "sandbagger". The equalizer system is actually pretty good. The only justifiable reason to manually manipulate someone's handicap is the belief that they are cheating or "sandbagging". What other reason is there?

KMRUNOUT
 
APA Operator said:
I didn't mean to set you off there, Maniac.

I can think of at least four explanations for what you observed. None of them involve the mathematical formula. A purely mathematical formula wouldn't produce this result, and if someone told you it did they would be lying.

The first explanation is the one you hinted at, that the LO was doing something shady to favor his/her team. That's a no-no, and I have no respect for an operator who would do that, but unfortunately there are some less-than-reputable operators in the network. Oh, and the shadiest thing they could do is to not let the player on your team drop to a 1 earlier. They couldn't force the player on their own team down (and it is possible to win a match and go down).

The second explanation is technically the same action as the first (not let the player on your team go down), but for a different reason. It may have been the operator's policy not to let new players drop immediately. This would require that the policy had been changed prior to the other player joining the operator's team, or that the operator simply didn't catch it with his/her own player.

Third, perhaps the operator had reason to suspect that your team was trying to "make" your new player a 1. Whether the suspicion was justified or not, in this case (and in the policy case above) the operator is trying to protect the system. I have teams in my league who know that if they bring on a new player, that player will never be a 1 in 9-Ball or a 2 in 8-Ball. They know it because I've told them. If they want a player with the lowest skill level possible, they have to find one that's already established.

The fourth reason involves some entry error, but I can't describe it without divulging information I'm not allowed to divulge.

It's entirely possible that your team got the short end of the stick from a less-than-reputable operator. It's also possible that the LO was trying to do the right thing and because you didn't understand it, it looked shady. I don't know enough about the specifics to say either way. I just wanted you to know that there are multiple POSSIBLE legitimate explanations.
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Hey APA Operator, I just want to say thanks for posting here. I like your clear and honest posting style. I bet you are a great LO! Just wanted to say so.

Thanks,

KMRUNOUT
 
Mike129 said:
APA 8 ball rankings should go to 9 also, I never understood why they do not
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I completely agree. I'm an sl6 in eightball on 9' and 7' diamonds.
There are a couple of guys who are 7s that would have to give me at least 2 games on a big table to make it fair, and that's only if I'm shooting better than average that day.
On the other hand there were a few "7s" I played in the minis in vegas who were at least a ball or two below me, so it seems that your handicap is based on who you play locally.
I wonder if it would be possible to standardize everything nationwide based on performance?
I've had a love hate relationship with the apa for the past few years but overall its been pretty good to me. Can't complain about a free trip to Sin City!
 
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