Power Draw & 11mm shafts ?

M

mamics

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi All,

Just wondering if tip size / shaft thickness has any bearing on one's success in executing power draw shots ?

ie. say at least 5 diamonds between OB & CB & getting say *at least* 5 or 6 diamonds of draw after contact.

I'm sure there are quite a few of you who can get this level of draw - are you all using 13mm tips ? (ie.13mm shaft ends)

Interested to know if anyone using approx. 11m tip / 11mm shaft end is able to get those monster draws with full size pool balls ? [Snooker players use thinner cues - but snooker balls are smaller / lighter - so that may be a factor there ??]

Thanx
Cheers.
 
I did some testing with side-spin and draw with a bunch of different shafts/tips.

The most action me and a friend were able to get was with a smaller diameter low deflection shaft with a layered tip. Tested 4 different shafts/tip combos that we had. A regular shaft with a regular tip ended up about 1.5 diamonds short of the area we both were able to send the cueball with spin while using an LD shaft with a layered tip. We hit a low-right spin shot with the object ball about a ball off the rail, 1.5 diamond from the pocket on the long rail, with the cueball about the spot, and we wanted to see how far down the table we can get the ball. The regular tip/shaft combo we were getting 1.5 diamonds diagonally from the object ball, with a LD shaft and layered tip, we were able to come close or even into the diagonal cross-corner pocket.

The LD shaft had probably a 12 mm tip. So a smaller than 13 mm layered tip with a LD shaft with a dime radius should get you the most spin with the same type of stroke.
 
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hang-the-9 said:
I did some testing with side-spin and draw with a bunch of different shafts/tips.

The most action me and a friend were able to get was with a smaller diameter low deflection shaft with a layered tip. Tested 4 different shafts/tip combos that we had. A regular shaft with a regular tip ended up about 1.5 diamonds short of the area we both were able to send the cueball with spin while using an LD shaft with a layered tip. We hit a low-right spin shot with the object ball about a ball off the rail, 1.5 diamond from the pocket on the long rail, with the cueball about the spot, and we wanted to see how far down the table we can get the ball. The regular tip/shaft combo we were getting 1.5 diamonds diagonally from the object ball, with a LD shaft and layered tip, we were able to come close or even into the diagonal cross-corner pocket.

The LD shaft had probably a 12 mm tip. So a smaller than 13 mm layered tip with a LD shaft with a dime radius should get you the most spin with the same type of stroke.
Click to expand...
I don't think the size difference in shaft diameters is significant enough to clearly influence the amount of draw or spin one puts on the cue ball.
In other words, the area of contact points between a 13mm and a 11.5 on the cue ball, are relatively the same.
The result differences you're getting has little or nothing to do with the shaft size.
 
Yep ok cheers all.
Seems logical - shaft size wouldn't change contact point significantly (13mm to 11mm) - have to agree with that - fair enough.
I've got a feeling I'm dropping my elbow and/or gripping to tight & therefore just not contacting the CB low enough. (and if I do hit low enough, my stroke isn't level & I end up scooping / miscuing - argh)
Will keep practicing.
Thanx Cheers.
 
You may get some more draw power with a smaller tip, but i think the difference is minimal, what you do get with a smaller tip is a "bigger" cueball.
Draw is hard. I have been working on the mecahnics of my game for a few months now.
From filming and asking for comments from other players i have found major flaws and are working on fixing them.

1. Moving while shooting.
2. Twisting the wrist.
3. Dropping the elbow.
4. Shooting higher on the CB, than what i think.
5. sideways movement of the cue.
6. Too much angle with the cue.
7. Having a 90 degree arm when the tip is touching the CB.

1, 2 and 4 was the first i tackled. 1 and 4 is now under controll and 2 is coming along.
5 sideways movement seems to be related to stance and how i grip the cue.
Dropping the elbow was something i did not know i did before watching myself on video and it has everything to do with point 7 and 6.
I had too much angle, wich again meat that when the tip touched the CB, my wrist was already close to my ribs, wich meant that i had almost no motion left before i had to drop the elbow to follow through.
I have also started using about an inch shorter length between my brifge and CB, this again to help the arm get that 90 degree angle.
In turn that lets me hold higher up on the cue, eliminating side to side motion.

Switching to a 30" shaft made things alot easier for me. I`m 5.9 and a regular cue feels just a little short.

That`s what i have noticed with my own game and the way i have gone about solving these issues. Still dropping the elbow on power draw shots, but the elbow drops after i hit the CB, so it does not mess up too much, other than the fact that it looks bad from a mechanical standpoint.
 
This thread is not about the Mosconi Cup, Bonus Ball or Earl or the poor state of the professional game. It is, in fact, informative and considered and of tremendous value.

I'm shocked and saddened. What has happened to the values of AzB?
 
Well, some useful info so far - thanx people.
Tried using a striped OB (as suggested to me by Dr. Dave) to see where I'm actually making contact - crikey - very inconsistent. I'm always aiming low (at the colour / white junction) but quite often not hitting as low as I'm aiming. (elbow drop + tight grip ?)

Even when I'm hitting close to the junction - still not getting that power draw effect - not even close - need more speed / acceleration I guess...

Best I could do on my 9 footer was 7.5 diamonds draw - but this was with CB & OB only 2.5 diamonds apart. Practice, practice, practice ?? !! :-D

And oh yeah - I use an open bridge but thats no big deal / major impediment for power draw, right ??? (hoping not...)

Are there any "C" graders out there able to get 7 diamonds draw on a 9 footer with CB & OB 4 diamonds apart ? (Guessing this would be a walk in the park for B graders & above ?)

Cheers.
 
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All about the Stroke baby

Drawing the CB is an art. Snapping any kind of junk on the ball is like anything else... Practice. However, there is a correlation between the TYPE of SHAFT, not the size of the tip. I find that a more rigid shaft responds to extreme english hits much better. I would say the difference between my rock maple shaft on a 1987 McDermott D-19 versus a 2nd Gen Z-shaft on the same cue to be a gap of around 30% conservatively.

I can still snap the cue ball back to the rail from across the table with the 13mm Rock Maple shaft, but its a bit easier to do with the Z Shaft.

Cheers!

Kim Bye said:
You may get some more draw power with a smaller tip, but i think the difference is minimal, what you do get with a smaller tip is a "bigger" cue ball.
Draw is hard. I have been working on the mechanics of my game for a few months now.
From filming and asking for comments from other players i have found major flaws and are working on fixing them.

1. Moving while shooting.
2. Twisting the wrist.
3. Dropping the elbow.
4. Shooting higher on the CB, than what i think.
5. sideways movement of the cue.
6. Too much angle with the cue.
7. Having a 90 degree arm when the tip is touching the CB.

1, 2 and 4 was the first i tackled. 1 and 4 is now under controll and 2 is coming along.
5 sideways movement seems to be related to stance and how i grip the cue.
Dropping the elbow was something i did not know i did before watching myself on video and it has everything to do with point 7 and 6.
I had too much angle, wich again meat that when the tip touched the CB, my wrist was already close to my ribs, wich meant that i had almost no motion left before i had to drop the elbow to follow through.
I have also started using about an inch shorter length between my brifge and CB, this again to help the arm get that 90 degree angle.
In turn that lets me hold higher up on the cue, eliminating side to side motion.

Switching to a 30" shaft made things alot easier for me. I`m 5.9 and a regular cue feels just a little short.

That`s what i have noticed with my own game and the way i have gone about solving these issues. Still dropping the elbow on power draw shots, but the elbow drops after i hit the CB, so it does not mess up too much, other than the fact that it looks bad from a mechanical standpoint.
Click to expand...
 
Lesh said:
Drawing the CB is an art. Snapping any kind of junk on the ball is like anything else... Practice. However, there is a correlation between the TYPE of SHAFT, not the size of the tip. I find that a more rigid shaft responds to extreme english hits much better. I would say the difference between my rock maple shaft on a 1987 McDermott D-19 versus a 2nd Gen Z-shaft on the same cue to be a gap of around 30% conservatively.

I can still snap the cue ball back to the rail from across the table with the 13mm Rock Maple shaft, but its a bit easier to do with the Z Shaft.

Cheers!
Click to expand...

I agree, i have a 30 years old maple house cue draws much better than others. But at the end of the day, tip accuracy, follow through, and elbow at power position is all it takes. IMO your eyes must be focused on CB for power draw, and not just look somewhere on the CB, has to focus on that point while doing the final backward movement slowly so you brain eyes catch up with that point on CB, doing back swing quick will do many bad things.
Note if you have loose grip you have to drop elbow or have very long bridge, if tight grip muscles should take care of the power without dropping elbow.
 
I use an 11.8mm tip and have no problem drawing 10 diamonds from 4 diamonds away. It's a matter of cue power and being able to hit low enough that you're almost hitting the cloth. A low bridge helps. Just a matter of practice and actually miscueing sometimes to learn the lower limits. Cues under 11mm tend to feel very unstable for power drawing, but I've seen snooker players using 10mm tips with the US balls and can still comfortably manage drawing a full table length from a few diamonds away from the OB.
 
I have been able to draw the cue ball 2 table lengths with:
12.25mm maple shaft with elkmaster tip
12.75mm birdseye shaft with black king medium tip
14mm maple shaft with phenolic tip
11.75mm Z2 shaft with kamui medium tip

I would say that it doesn't matter. (Tip size that is)
It's all in the stroke.
 
Since you use an open bridge, your tip position at the end of your power draw stroke can help you tell what your elbow and wrist are doing through the stroke.



mamics said:
Well, some useful info so far - thanx people.
Tried using a striped OB (as suggested to me by Dr. Dave) to see where I'm actually making contact - crikey - very inconsistent. I'm always aiming low (at the colour / white junction) but quite often not hitting as low as I'm aiming. (elbow drop + tight grip ?)

Even when I'm hitting close to the junction - still not getting that power draw effect - not even close - need more speed / acceleration I guess...

Best I could do on my 9 footer was 7.5 diamonds draw - but this was with CB & OB only 2.5 diamonds apart. Practice, practice, practice ?? !! :-D

And oh yeah - I use an open bridge but thats no big deal / major impediment for power draw, right ??? (hoping not...)

Are there any "C" graders out there able to get 7 diamonds draw on a 9 footer with CB & OB 4 diamonds apart ? (Guessing this would be a walk in the park for B graders & above ?)

Cheers.
Click to expand...
 
DAVE_M said:
I have been able to draw the cue ball 2 table lengths with:
12.25mm maple shaft with elkmaster tip
12.75mm birdseye shaft with black king medium tip
14mm maple shaft with phenolic tip
11.75mm Z2 shaft with kamui medium tip

I would say that it doesn't matter. (Tip size that is)
It's all in the stroke.
Click to expand...

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is in the STROKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is a guy in my poolroom who is a major league baseball player who juices the ball like no one I have ever seen. I gave him my sledge hammer break stick which has an emerald tip on a 13mm Lane Simons shaft he still draws the ball 2 long rails with the OB sitting in pocket and him shooting from the other end of the table. Super Stroke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I had a OB classic pro and had a hard time drawing with it. I find a more flexible shaft is easier for me to draw with. Like an old Meucci shaft or even the red dot shaft.
 
I can (not consistently, tho) draw 2 full table lengths with a snooker cue on a pool table and a snooker table (12 foot) diagonally. Same with a standard 13mm maple shaft pool cue. The snooker table cloth was only about a month old, so... I probably couldn't do it again now that is has been used daily for about a year.

To me, doesn't matter how big the tip, I just have to be in stroke and feeling good about my game.

A little tip that worked for me... Just try to place your bridge hand as low on the table as possible, that way you don't have to focus on hitting the cue ball very low, the tip will simply go low. When I practised the deep screw shots, the cue ball went flying off the table many, many times. That's okay, you just have to get used to the miscue limit. When I am playing bad or haven't played for a while, sometimes, before the deep screw shot, I get worried that I might miscue, and then failing to draw back enough. In form, in stroke, I don't even think about it and it works.
 
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I used OB2 for a while, Z2 a bit, and now Classic Pro. All 11ish mm.
Used on the measles ball most often, which many consider one of the heavier cue balls out there.

It makes no difference, all of them can draw the ball.

A few people have suggested low deflection and smaller diameters make it easier to draw the ball.
I'm not 100% sold on that but sometimes it does seem easier.

I can tell you for sure the small diameter DOESN'T make it any harder.
You won't get less draw and if you do, it isn't the shaft, it may be some weirdness with the tip
or a psychological thing. The shaft itself can get the job done no problem.
 
Level cue, loose grip, good follow thru, and the help of Scott Lee taught me why I was not drawing ball consistently. Cue, shaft, or tip did not seem to make any difference. I realized there was a problem because when I needed a full table of draw I would get a stop shot, when I needed 1 foot of draw I often got 4 or 5 diamonds.
 
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