power draw stroke

[JimS]

:thumbup: I read on this site somewhere that Buddy says to jack up a little and move the rear hand back to the butt of the cue. He says that will cause arguments about why it works and to not worry about why it works.. just do it because it does work. Buddy's my-Man. :groucho: :thumbup2: k: :winknudge: :wink2: :yes:

 

[Cameron Smith]

The key to a power draw shot is to ensure that you aren't raising your tip upon contact.

A lot of people try to smash this shot in and end up playing a stop shot, which is generally due to premature elbow dropage.

Edit: Oh yeah and a good follow through too!

 

[td873]

From 7 diamonds it is necessary to jack the cue stick because there is not sufficient room between the rail and the CB to keep it level.

Here's a 7 diamond shot: cue ball is 1 ball from the rail, OB is about 1 chalk from the rail on the first diamond [7 diamonds away]. Pocket the OB and draw the table [plus a little more].

Getting draw is just 1/2 the battle - since this shot is particularly tough at this angle - especially shooting into tight (4.5") pockets. [IMO this is more difficult than a 7 diamond shot with the OB in the jaws, as you automatically make the ball]. And being jacked up makes this shot about 5X harder. I would say just pocketing the OB at speed 5 out of 10 times would be a pretty good feat. Drawing the length of the table, well, now that's a draw shot. I'd put myself at about 40%+ on this particular shot.

CueTable Help

-td

 

[Patrick Johnson]

When the stick is intentionally jacked up there is more draw effect. This simply makes sense because one is coming in at an angle that is conducive to placing more back spin on the OB. That is when an anglular approach is used it is possible that the CB is slightly trapped against the cloth allowing more back spin to be imparted.

You get just as much backspin with a nearly level cue as with a jacked up cue. Jacking up just changes the direction of force to more vertical, which doesn't diminish spin, but does diminish forward speed, increasing the spin-to-speed ratio. Increasing the spin-to-speed ratio doesn't help full-hit draw shots, since the full-on collision with the OB removes all forward speed but very little backspin anyway.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

PKM:
You would aim CTE for a straight-in shot?

av84fun:
Yes

!

LOL. I suppose on a straight-in shot you pivot back to center after not moving your bridge?

pj
chgo

 

[av84fun]

!

LOL. I suppose on a straight-in shot you pivot back to center after not moving your bridge?

pj
chgo

Yet another nonsensical post from a man who obviously doesn't understand the system...admits he doesn't fully understand it...refuses instruction from a NOTED instructor because he says he doesn't believe in systems, period...but criticizes the system anyway.

And as far as pivoting after NOT moving the bridge hand...of course I don't move my bridge hand. Do you move your bridge hand after you're down on shots Patrick?

The reason the CTE players approach straight ins as they would any other shot is for the sake of CONSISTENCY.

Maybe you didn't get the memo but consistency in shooting pool shots is the hallmark of advanced players.

Jim

 

[JoeW]

TD873 said, "Getting draw is just 1/2 the battle - since this shot is particularly tough at this angle - especially shooting into tight (4.5") pockets. [IMO this is more difficult than a 7 diamond shot with the OB in the jaws, as you automatically make the ball]. And being jacked up makes this shot about 5X harder. I would say just pocketing the OB at speed 5 out of 10 times would be a pretty good feat. Drawing the length of the table, well, now that's a draw shot. I'd put myself at about 40%+ on this particular shot."

That is one heck of a shot to make with 40% consistency. That is a cool avatar. You had me scratching my screen

BTW those who can make the 7 diamond shot in the jaws of the pocket say that it too must be hit perfectly or the CB returns at an unknown angle and may not come back to the point or origin.

PJ, I know that my thoughts are against the grain of conventional wisdom but consider this analogy for a minute. If you want to impart back spin on a basketball thrown to the ground, like we did when we were kids, it is best to push the ball away at an angle to get the maximum spin and power.

If I hit a CB at an angle below center there is (should be?) more resistance from the ball and the cloth covered table. This resistance allows me to impart more spin on the CB. With sufficient force I can make the CB obtain more spin and the necessary forward movement simultaneously.

I would think that those trained in Physics could determine the trade offs for the different vectors and the required amounts of force for the energy transfer with different amounts of table resistance. That is, such a shot requires more force but would (could) produce more back spin.

I am merely attempting to explain what I have seen by those who can make these shots.

I think that this type of explanation is in line with the massive amounts of back spin obtained with a masse. Perhaps a power draw is a variation on a masse ??? See TD873 diagram above. He has incredible back spin on that cb and sufficient force to pocket the OB. That is one helluva stroke.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

PJ, I know that my thoughts are against the grain of conventional wisdom...

It's not "conventional wisdom", Joe, it's well established physics.

If I hit a CB at an angle below center there is (should be?) more resistance from the ball and the cloth covered table. This resistance allows me to impart more spin on the CB.

No, this resistance reduces the amount of spin you can put on the CB. That's why it's called resistance.

With sufficient force I can make the CB obtain more spin and the necessary forward movement simultaneously.

The key phrase here is "with sufficient force". The reason you get more spin is because you hit harder. You get less spin for the same force compared with a more level cue. To put it another way, for shots with the same force (all the way up to maximum force), you get more backspin with a more level cue. This also means you can get more maximum spin with a more level cue.

I would think that those trained in Physics could determine the trade offs for the different vectors and the required amounts of force for the energy transfer with different amounts of table resistance.

You would think right. It has been done, and the results are as I described: jacking up reduces backspin, but it reduces forward speed even more, creating the illusion of more spin.

Perhaps a power draw is a variation on a masse ???

A jacked up draw shot is indeed a variation on a masse. But the important thing in a masse is spin-to-speed ratio, not absolute RPMs. Jacking up reduces absolute RPMs but increases the spin-to-speed ratio (that's what I said in my previous answer).

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Yet another nonsensical post from a man who obviously doesn't understand the system...admits he doesn't fully understand it...refuses instruction from a NOTED instructor because he says he doesn't believe in systems, period...but criticizes the system anyway.

Jim, I think you know full well by now that I'm not criticizing this system or saying it doesn't work - what's being said (and not just by me) is that you don't understand how it works. Stop trying to shift the focus to the system and face up to your own errors. It's your lack of understanding of how this system works (coupled with your stubborn bombast) that's the problem in these threads.

pj
chgo

 

[td873]

See TD873 diagram above. He has incredible back spin on that cb and sufficient force to pocket the OB. That is one helluva stroke.

For those that haven't already viewed it, I posted this shot some time ago on YouTube. I planned to shoot it 10 times in a row, but ended up shooting it 11, making only 5. It really is a tough shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ8S2RC5_kw

-td

 

[cookie man]

!

LOL. I suppose on a straight-in shot you pivot back to center after not moving your bridge?

pj
chgo

Busta pivots on his lag shot. What else do you need to know!!!

 

[Scott Lee]

To Patrick and Jim....PLEASE

Come on both of you. We're all tired of your personal tirades against one another. It takes huge amounts of thread space, with no positive benefit to anybody (of the 30+ pages just on the Hal Houle thread, your personal sh*t is responsible for AT LEAST half of the posts). Take your arguments and insults where they belong...either to PM's or NPR. You are both friends and students of mine, but frankly I'm getting darn tired of the back and forth B.S. between you...that goes on, and on, and on, and on....

Respectfully,

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Jim, I think you know full well by now that I'm not criticizing this system or saying it doesn't work - what's being said (and not just by me) is that you don't understand how it works. Stop trying to shift the focus to the system and face up to your own errors. It's your lack of understanding of how this system works (coupled with your stubborn bombast) that's the problem in these threads.

pj
chgo

 

[hang-the-9]

What kind of stroke does it take to make this straight-in shot and draw all the way back? Can it be done with a relatively level stroke (I'm sure people can do it of course, but practically speaking) or would you likely need to be jacked up slightly more than is necessary to stroke the ball? What kind of power is necessary?

I know it's not a practical shot by any means, I was just wondering as a test of cueing. It's beyond my ability right now.

CueTable Help

If you drop your bridge hand a bit, you should not have to raise the butt of the cue. This is makable with a firm but not super hard stroke to bring back to the rail. A good player should be able to draw to the rail and back uptable at least half way.

For me, I need to stiffen up my wrist a bit to make that shot and draw back into the opposite pocket. Otherwise my aim goes off and I miss the shot, although the draw part works. Trying to use a Bustamante/Efren type stroke on this may be bad, I use more of a Buddy Hall/Nick Varner hit on a long shot like this. That's just what I found works for me, your milage will vary of-course.