Practical demonstration of cue tip path with a Pendulum stroke.
- Thread starter gregcantrall
- Start date
I said what I meant, and I mean what I say.
I try and be as diplomatic as I can, and look for the positive where I can find it. I don't care to get into the personality conflicts between a group of people that I enjoy interacting with on this forum.
In short, while a good internet fight can be fun for a while, when the conflict continues on endlessly, merely for the sake of the fight, it becomes tiresome.
I hope all of you can find something else to talk about.
Very nice! Straighter than just about anybody would have predicted.
Seems that some good info has come from a thread that started out with dubious intent. Both you and Mr. Cantrall have made nice contributions to the billiards community by clarifying exactly what happens to the cue during a pure pendulum stroke. I only wish all threads on AZB could yield nuggets of knowledge such as these instead of getting mired down in vitriol.
Question for Greg or oldschool: Can you do the same thing to my stroke in the video? If it's too much trouble, don't bother. I am curious about how straight a real life pendulum stroke is. I don't know it that is even possible for either of you, but thought I would ask. Here's the link to it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNIW3zwmeYo&feature=youtu.be
I could but I would have to put drywall screws in your elbow and hand!
It would be interesting if someone had the ability to trace the path of the tip from the video. Sadly, I don't have the ability to do that.
I could but I would have to put drywall screws in your elbow and hand!
It would be interesting if someone had the ability to trace the path of the tip from the video. Sadly, I don't have the ability to do that.
LOL! I thought you might say that, but I didn't want to leave you out. I've had a framing nail in my hand, don't think I want to try a screw. :thumbup:
combating disinformation.
Just bringing this to the top so impressionable young minds can see the true series of archs in a perfect pendulum stroke.
..
Just bringing this to the top so impressionable young minds can see the true series of archs in a perfect pendulum stroke.
..
Thanks - I was thinking of this demonstration in connection with this thread. The tip's path is even straighter than I remembered.
pj
chgo
Hondo lives. (?) (!)
Can it be English is Mr, Haney?
Can it be English is Mr, Haney?
what a coincidence. i've been thinking a lot about things like stroke, alignment, eye pattern for the last month. and actually have this thread amongst the many open tabs i keep.
a quick question about terminology that came to me....
i can understand the concept of the pendulum stroke. but i often see piston stroke as an accompanying thought in the threads.
are piston and pendulum mutually exclusive?
are there strokes that are a hybrid of the two?
does "piston" serve as a larger catch-all for a stroke that isn't a pure pendulum (meaning throughout the backswing, contact, and follow through)?
i was watching this last night and didn't know how to describe what i saw... Niels vs Stalev 2014 Kremlin cup.... i liked the camera position and lighting.
Niels viewed at a 45 degree angle, 2 different follow through lengths
and you can slide to other shots that inspired me to ask....
at 1:00:52, from behind, longer follow through
at 1:02:19, side view
at 1:16:15, side view
at 1:18:02, side view
it goes backswing like what i'd think is a pendulum. if the follow through is long, the cue stays straight (what i'd think of as piston).
what do we call this? i just want to know so i can better follow what i read (yeah, i'm willing to slog through this thread for the valuable info, despite the noise.)
I've been told that it is called a Piston J stroke when the back 'swing' & intial down 'swing' are like a 'pendulum' with the hand & tip & cue then going straight into & through the cue ball like a full piston stroke.
If the elbow drops on the back swing, raises, & then drops again as the hand & cue move in a straight line, some call that a scissors stroke or just a straight piston stroke.
Best Wishes to All.
If the elbow drops on the back swing, raises, & then drops again as the hand & cue move in a straight line, some call that a scissors stroke or just a straight piston stroke.
Best Wishes to All.
Duplicate, did not realize the thread was a couple years old.
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even being a couple of years old the plots are still relevant...
I still say that the transition in the grip between you fingers in conjunction with the wrist hinging can add a significant length to the sweet spot where the tip is going straight thru the cueball...
I will also say that the piston while having more moving parts is a more natural stroke for some people as you are actively controlling the tip of the cue like you would control the tip of a rapier or foil...
It's a motion we all learn as kids around Christmas when mom uses several rolls of wrapping paper and our imagination turns to knights, pirates and Jedis.....
I still say that the transition in the grip between you fingers in conjunction with the wrist hinging can add a significant length to the sweet spot where the tip is going straight thru the cueball...
I will also say that the piston while having more moving parts is a more natural stroke for some people as you are actively controlling the tip of the cue like you would control the tip of a rapier or foil...
It's a motion we all learn as kids around Christmas when mom uses several rolls of wrapping paper and our imagination turns to knights, pirates and Jedis.....
the pendulum stroke allows you to more easily bring the tip to the point you are actually aiming. the key in all sports is to be able to repeat your stroke, as it doesnt matter how the tip gets there as long as you can do it every time.
your mind will learn to hit the cue ball in the correct spot for what you want to do. if for instance you aim for center ball and your stroke which is repeatable hits one mm high, you soon learn to aim one mm lower to get that desired affect of hitting center ball..
as long as you find a stroke you can always repeat you will get good real fast and stay good.
your mind will learn to hit the cue ball in the correct spot for what you want to do. if for instance you aim for center ball and your stroke which is repeatable hits one mm high, you soon learn to aim one mm lower to get that desired affect of hitting center ball..
as long as you find a stroke you can always repeat you will get good real fast and stay good.
For those interested, I just did a careful and detailed analysis of how the tip moves during a pure pendulum stroke. Here it is:
TP B.18 - Pendulum Stroke Cue Tip Trajectory
Check out the trajectory plots and calculations starting at the bottom of the 2nd page. The tip trajectory into the CB and during the initial follow through after the CB separates from the tip is extremely straight. The vertical motion of the tip over the 4 inches closest to the CB (2 inches on either side) is about a hundredth of an inch (about 1/3 of a mm)!!!
The equations derived can also be used to check any combinations of forearm length, bridge length and grip-bridge separation distance.
Check it out,
Dave
TP B.18 - Pendulum Stroke Cue Tip Trajectory
Check out the trajectory plots and calculations starting at the bottom of the 2nd page. The tip trajectory into the CB and during the initial follow through after the CB separates from the tip is extremely straight. The vertical motion of the tip over the 4 inches closest to the CB (2 inches on either side) is about a hundredth of an inch (about 1/3 of a mm)!!!
The equations derived can also be used to check any combinations of forearm length, bridge length and grip-bridge separation distance.
Check it out,
Dave
Post of the month, BlTCHES.,
The model, like the one PJ posted, has the cue level & not angled as would most often be the case & it too has a single pivot point for the hand & with no wrist & that too is not usually the case in reality. And, I think most have the arm perpendicular to the floor & not the cue, but that is subjective & part of the issue.
We do NOT play pool in a science book.
Anyone can do their own bio-mechanical experiment & make their own determinations.
Set up with the tip at the CB & have someone place a mechanical bridge very close to but not touching the cue half way between the bridge hand & the Cue Ball & then take the cue back slowly with the hand swinging up like a pendulum & one should feel the cue lower significantly at that point which is less than at the tip. If the shoulder moves or the elbow lowers to facilitate the cue moving straight then one is NOT utilizing a pendulum stroke.
If that lowering cue & tip is reversed then the tip is approaching the ball as it arcs up & is on an up swing as the hand is going down.
As Renfro/Chris mentioned & I too have said before, the connection to the cue & the hand & wrist action is significant in getting the cue to perhaps move in a near straight line & is vital as is the set up that needs to be perfect. The connection to the cue & the hand & wrist action is almost always neglected in these types of stroke 'discussions'.
There are a lot of IFs involved & we as human beings are not very adept at emulating that scientific model. We do not even resemble it as we have a hand & a wrist.
When one tries to utilize a method that is dependent on no movement of certain parts like the elbow & shoulder while other parts are moving below, any movement of those parts disrupts the planned movement below.
As Renfro Chris also sort of suggested one can choose to do what comes rather natural or one can chose to try to emulate a pendulum machine that IS perfect.
We as human beings rarely if ever approach perfect when perfect is required.
As I have also said, anyone can & should make their own determinations.
Best Wishes to All.
PS The above is food for thought for those interested. For those not so, please ignore it.
PPS How often is one NOT able to set up perfectly, especially on the larger tables.
PPPS Also, I am NOT looking to 'argue' with anyone. I've made my points as have others & everyone can make their own determinations as well they should.
We do NOT play pool in a science book.
Anyone can do their own bio-mechanical experiment & make their own determinations.
Set up with the tip at the CB & have someone place a mechanical bridge very close to but not touching the cue half way between the bridge hand & the Cue Ball & then take the cue back slowly with the hand swinging up like a pendulum & one should feel the cue lower significantly at that point which is less than at the tip. If the shoulder moves or the elbow lowers to facilitate the cue moving straight then one is NOT utilizing a pendulum stroke.
If that lowering cue & tip is reversed then the tip is approaching the ball as it arcs up & is on an up swing as the hand is going down.
As Renfro/Chris mentioned & I too have said before, the connection to the cue & the hand & wrist action is significant in getting the cue to perhaps move in a near straight line & is vital as is the set up that needs to be perfect. The connection to the cue & the hand & wrist action is almost always neglected in these types of stroke 'discussions'.
There are a lot of IFs involved & we as human beings are not very adept at emulating that scientific model. We do not even resemble it as we have a hand & a wrist.
When one tries to utilize a method that is dependent on no movement of certain parts like the elbow & shoulder while other parts are moving below, any movement of those parts disrupts the planned movement below.
As Renfro Chris also sort of suggested one can choose to do what comes rather natural or one can chose to try to emulate a pendulum machine that IS perfect.
We as human beings rarely if ever approach perfect when perfect is required.
As I have also said, anyone can & should make their own determinations.
Best Wishes to All.
PS The above is food for thought for those interested. For those not so, please ignore it.
PPS How often is one NOT able to set up perfectly, especially on the larger tables.
PPPS Also, I am NOT looking to 'argue' with anyone. I've made my points as have others & everyone can make their own determinations as well they should.
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Nice addition to your body of work Dave!:thumbup: