The is the hardest you’ll ever need to a hit a ball playing 9 ball, he says playing on a bar box, but nonsense regardless. Then proceeds to bang the balls on the table to demonstrate how to ruin your cloth. At which point I stopped watching.
Practice - Drills...NOPE!
- Thread starter BarTableMan
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The is the hardest you’ll ever need to a hit a ball playing 9 ball, he says playing on a bar box, but nonsense regardless. Then proceeds to bang the balls on the table to demonstrate how to ruin your cloth. At which point I stopped watching.
GentlemanJames
Well-known member
How insightful SHUDDY... Bert Kinister teaches his students - like Niels Feijen, et al - "how to ruin their cloth".
And, your list of world-class champion students who have trained under you would include... ? - GJ
Dud
What are you talking about? Slamming the balls on the table destroys the cloth. I don’t care who does it.
And as someone has already pointed out, the slight stun run through effect you’re talking about can be achieved with a drag, not just center ball as you’ve claimed.
How insightful SHUDDY... Bert Kinister teaches his students - like Niels Feijen, et al - "how to ruin their cloth".
And, your list of world-class champion students who have trained under you would include... ? - GJ
What are you talking about? Slamming the balls on the table destroys the cloth. I don’t care who does it.
And as someone has already pointed out, the slight stun run through effect you’re talking about can be achieved with a drag, not just center ball as you’ve claimed.
Those few sentences are a bit more insightful than the 10000 words you wrote on the previous page about something that is just wrong.
Bert knows his shit.
If, as I've just shown in the above video, you can achieve the same outcome without center ball, how does the student know they are hitting center ball? They might have chameleon eyes and think that two tips below center is center, like I played the above drag shot. They can replace the object ball with the cueball with the right combination of power and tip position, as 7stud said, and practice that shot all day long while not hitting center ball once.
What does this even mean?
Sure, but again, as I've shown, if you can do that with two tips of bottom, you can do it at any point between there and center
See above.
But, as you can see in my shot, the cueball does contact the object ball just after it transitions to rolling, so that means my shot IS this shot, right?
Again, if the same result can be achieved in a different way.....
Why would we presume that to be true? On the other hand, I've just shown you that 7Stud's statement is true.
Sure, but I guarantee he regularly played shots harder than that when he played 9 ball. I also guarantee that if he did that to a table in a hall I ran, he'd get a warning and then get kicked out. Not hyperbole; I've done exactly that to players in a snooker room I owned.
Not a huge fan of banging the balls like he did either. Similar to a putting your ass or beer on the table or not sitting down when your inning is over. I don't think he was being literal, more about many players hitting a 10 mph when they need a 5 mph.
Guy Manges
Registered
Sure would be nice if there weren't any subconscious human factors... Like rush and distractions... Like balance and vision... The best of human advice is a paraphrase, You must See the table, You must Square yourself to the table... Rd 395 all the way... Guy
GentlemanJames
Well-known member
SHUDDY - It becomes obvious, that you failed to comprehend the entire point, purpose, and goal of the exercise-shot we are discussing - which is not about how to bring the CB to this finish position in-play, versus using other cuing positions and strokes, as you have wholly misunderstood.
Repeat: this exercise is purely a Center Ball exercise.
This shot is a training exercise, specifically and primarily designed for: A) stroke development; B) teaching how to accurately and consistently hit the dead-center of the CB; and, C) for a given distance/speed; as measured by the residual 1/2 ball diameter 'roll--over' effect.
Repeat: this exercise is purely a Center Ball exercise.
Bert Kinister is not teaching stop-shots, applying draw/drag, nor any other off-axial center cueing.
Repeat: this exercise is purely a Center Ball exercise.
Therefore, applying 'drag' to achieve the same finish position as you are clamoring-on about, or using anything other than hitting a perfect Center Ball shot and consistently achieving anything other exactly 1/2 ball 'roll-over' is SPECIFICALLY NOT what is going on here - being your 1st misunderstanding.
And yes, training burns up cloth and training from precise fixed table-positions thousands of times puts holes in cloth. These holes and burns are trophies of commitment to excellent and self-improvement; and not, something negative - being your 2nd misunderstanding.
Speaking of Champions and Trophies... Still waiting for you to post as a meaningful reply, your list of World-Class Championship-Level Students which you have personally trained, so we can compare your record of teaching success against that of Bert Kinister - the man who's teachings and training exercises, you have completely failed to understand.
Why is there a problem with you doing that? - GJ
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And I repeat, if the same thing can be achieved through multiple ways, how do I know I'm hitting center ball? You made a lot of definitive statements and waxed lyrical about center being the ONLY way to achieve this half ball roll-over effect as compared to the much more lenient stop shot.
Then you made some mysterious comments about 7stud's statement not being true if your statements are true and challenged him to achieve the same effect with axial rotation and suggested it would be illuminating. But now, "Dude, this is training only!"
I'm not talking about training, I'm talking about showing his 1000s of future world champions that it's okay to bang balls on the table, something that doesn't show dedication, just a lack of respect for equipment.
I'm ignoring this because it's an appeal to authority, and not even your own authority, someone else's. It just belittles your previous attempts to sound erudite.
You see all this?
And this?
This is what 7stud was disagreeing with because you contrasted replacing the object ball, which "as far as I am aware, can only be done when hit absolutely perfectly", with a stop shot, which "can be brought about by a different combinations of shot speeds and associated proper cuing positions for a given distance".
He suggested that replacing the object ball can also be achieved with numerous combinations of tip position and power, to which you responded by patronizingly challenging him to achieve the same result with axial rotation and be "illuminated".
I pointed out that his shot is clearly not the hardest you ever need to play a shot in 9 ball and that banging balls on a table destroys the cloth, and you challenged me to a penis size competition with Burt, not even with yourself.
Come on, man. It's okay to clarify your position and admit you're wrong at the same time.
GentlemanJames
Well-known member
SHUDDY - Again, you are only one talking about 'other cueing positions' and 'multiple ways', no one else; because as I have stated multiple times, that is not what this drill is about.
Repeat: this exercise is purely a Center Ball exercise.
To answer your Second Question:
If you carefully examine a circle-dot cue ball after shooting, you will see a chalk mark which reveals exactly where the cue tip impacted the cue ball - provided the "student" has the common sense to properly set the dot on the cue ball and line-up the shot correctly - which is the empirical proof of hit location.
That's how we "know" if we have, or have not, hit center ball.
Secondly, provided the center ball hit has been achieved, the 1/2 ball diameter 'roll-over' effect, serves as the visual proof which confirms we have executed a straight stroke on center - the true purpose of the drill to those who listen and understand - and at the correct speed for the distance between the cue ball and the object ball, for this exercise.
Any speed, too much speed or too less speed, or hitting off-axis left or right, leaves the cue ball elsewhere, and other than perfectly replacing the object ball's former position. That's the purpose of the 1/2 ball 'roll over' effect, it's a visual speedometer for CENTER BALL HIT; and does not include hitting the cue ball below the horizontal axis.
IN SUM: To hit CENTER BALL, and perfectly replace the OB's former position, by causing the CB to rotate 1/2 diameter after collision, can only be done in this exercise with a perfect center ball hit, at perfect speed, with a perfectly straight stroke with no steering/off-line in the follow-through.
Hit that cue ball any other way, and you are talking about something else completely, and talking to yourself.
Perfect and Pure hitting is the goal in this Bert Kinister exercise.
And that, is ALL that's going on here; building a true stroke, and learning to deliver a perfect center ball hit at given distance accurately, reliably, and consistently.
So again, SHODDY, we know Bert Kinister's credentials, CV, and proven and measurable track-record as a very successful coach/teacher; so, for the 3rd time, where's you list of world-class championship-level students you have personally trained?
Still waiting for that.... Hmmmmm; not really. - GJ
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This is fun. I like merry-go-rounds.
Here, I'll use blue text for my replies because you seem to ignore most of what I say.
Really? This is your test for center ball? 1. My tip doesn't leave chalk marks all over the cueball. 2. Lining up a dot to be center ball relies on you being able to see center ball, which is the same way people play a center ball shot. So if I can line up the dot at center ball, then I should just be able to hit center ball.
And as I've said, if the same effect can be achieved without center ball, and I can't confirm I'm hitting center ball, then the 1/2 ball roll-over doesn't confirm anything.
So, to hit center ball I have to hit center ball?
Why do you keep typing my name in caps? And now you're punning on my name? Shoddy? hahahaha.
I've already said I'm ignoring your request because it's infantile and it's an appeal to authority.
And as opposed to you asking me (not a professional coach) to compare my coaching credentials to a professional coach, I'm simply asking you to justify your own words.
You explain that replacing the object ball with a center ball hit is the only way to achieve that. You even support this statement by comparing it to a shot that can be achieved in multiple ways.
Your logic is that the small stun-run is an excellent diagnostic tool for center ball because it can't be achieved in multiple way, unlike a stun shot, which can be achieved in multiple ways.
7stud pointed out that this isn't true. You challenged him replicate it with axial spin. I did that and showed you in a video.
So, now your logic for the stun-run being an excellent center-ball diagnostic is flawed.
But you're too defensive to admit that you either misspoke or were wrong.
GentlemanJames
Well-known member
SHUDDY - If you haven't picked-up on the clues, I have no time to waste with contrarian personalities who are desperate to seek attention, the cognitively impaired, or monocular-minded time-wasters who find the most simple of training concepts wholly abstruse; regardless of how many times the basic training/exercise concept under discussion here is reiterated and underscored for them.
I'll keep my money, focus, and time spent on Bert Kinister's training concepts (the coach/teacher you choose to try to one-up); and, not on what you are blithering-on about.
We are done here. - GJ
I'll keep my money, focus, and time spent on Bert Kinister's training concepts (the coach/teacher you choose to try to one-up); and, not on what you are blithering-on about.
We are done here. - GJ
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I’m pretty sure if you showed a random person our posts and asked them to assign the word blithering to one or the other, they wouldn’t choose mine.
At no point did I say this is a bad training exercise. At no point did I try to one-up Bert. The only things I’ve said are:
1. There’s no way that’s the hardest he hits the ball playing 9 ball.
2. Banging the balls on the table destroys the cloth.
3. Your using flawed logic that a true center ball hit is the only way to play the shot as compared to other shots that have multiple ways means this a great center ball diagnostic.
You responded to 1 and 2 by challenging me with a list of my world champion students; something completely irrelevant to what I said and a personal attack on me.
You responded to 7stud’s response to 3 by being patronizing and challenging him to achieve the same result with axial rotation on the cueball. I showed you this and you reverted to challenging me on my world champion students, which again, is infantile and irrelevant.
I’ve clearly quoted you saying that this shot can only be achieved by a true center ball hit and supporting your claim by comparing it to a shot that can be achieved in multiple ways. I’ve demonstrated that the stun-run can be achieved in multiple ways, as 7Stud stated (and you replied by talking down to him, sounding like there’s some kind of illumination that he’ll discover if he takes the time to do what you instruct, but not explaining what that illumination is).
I haven’t personally attacked you or questioned your credentials once in this conversation because if we all needed to have world champion students to contribute, then this forum would be dead.
On the other-hand, your response to me stating two things that are quite clearly true, was to question my credentials as a measure of my the value of my post.
Your personal attack on me triggered me to point out the flaw in your logic, demonstrate it with a video, and defend another poster you treated patronizingly. All this could have been avoided if you hadn’t resorted to school yard “my dad can beat up your day” tactics and rather ignored my criticisms of Bert, which weren’t even relevant to the training drill.
You clearly enjoy typing lengthy diatribes with obtuse references and connections but can’t be bothered to defend them when challenged.
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” Jung
Guy Manges
Registered
If this was ever true, I'm 82 now and this is all past-tence, Still love the games of pool ... Guy
BU Exam I has 8 useful drills, and the other Exams (II, III, IV, V) have many more. Everything you need to do the drills, along with video demonstrations, is available for free here: