Predator news...

[onepocketchump]

All this Predator bashing sure sounds like a bunch of dealers who are trying to peddle a product line that has a higher margin.

The Predator still performs best

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I don't think that is true at all. Where something is produced is a valid concern for a lot of people for a variety of reasons. Quality is one, a country's human rights record for another. I believe that a company should disclose where their products are made and it's the law as well.

I personally feel that Predator should be able to have the same quality no matter where their products are produced. IF their quality were to suffer then the market would quickly make it known.

As for which products have high margins or not, do you begrudge Predator the margins they make on cues produced wholly or in part in countries wherer the price of labor is considerably less than in North America? Unless you are in a position to make all the costs of production and realted sales figures public knowledge then you are speaking from a platform of ignorance when it comes to who is making what.

I didn't really see that anyone bashed Predator here. I see some assumptions about their motivations and some speculation about whether the quality will suffer or not. I see plenty of folks who have praised Predator so I think you are reading a little too much here.

Lastly, "performs best" for what? According to their claims? According to your opinion? Have you tested each laminated shaft on the market to back up your claim? How did you test and where is your data? After all the claims Predator makes are supposed to be based on scientific testing so I hope that you can provide us with some data.

I wouldn't want to think that you were shilling in order to bash competing products and further the sale of what some people think are "overpriced" and overhyped products. Show me the performance difference in hard data and then I'll believe they are "better".

John

 

[spliced]

Are there any other sites out there besides platinum billiards that compare the performance of all these high performance shafts?

Also, since there is no hollow cavity in the tiger shaft to reduce deflection, how is it's performance any different than a solid maple shaft, and how can it be compared to the predator in performance?

 

[DavidMNienow]

To me the real issue at hand here is the issue of quality. Predator has set a bench march in terms of both quality & performance. For the consumer that has bought a Predator shaft those are the issues of importance. And that quality has been based in part of their investment in technology & labor that is based here in the USA.

And so now like so many manufacturers they are moving their production overseas, and in this case that's in China. If Predator can maintain their existing quality of their product while increasing their margin of profit, then more power to them. But are they prepared to maintain that existing commitment to product quality?. If Predator was as equally concerned about their product image as their quality then someone from Predator should be making some public annoucement about this new major direction in their business. And make some public affirmation about their quality committment.

And with lower production costs as result to switching production to China one would hope that they could even maintain their existing product quality while even lowering the SRP somewhat and still maintain a healthy profit margin. That would certainly benefit the consumer, and further cement their public & product image.

There are alot of companies that have switched their production overseas, been able to maintain and even extend their product quality, and satisfy consumer demand. But those companies maintain a strong committment to overseing how things are done in the manufacturing process to ensure that.
At this point we don't know what Predator is going to be doing to ensure their existing product quality. So that leaves a big question of concern for any consumer interested in buying their product. And it's a valid concern considering how many times products have lost their quality when a production switch to overseas has been made.

At this point all that can done by us billiard consumers is to watch & wait to see what comes out in the future.

 

[wakuljr]

All this Predator bashing sure sounds like a bunch of dealers who are trying to peddle a product line that has a higher margin.

The Predator still performs best

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untrue, i am in the retail side of this industry. my store doesn't carry predator because the are rather exspencive. 98% of my cue customers think $100 for a cue is outlandish. i have had them in, had 4 in about 3 years ago.....couldn't sell them....to anyone for the price i had to ask. last year i dumped them at cost just to get them out. 4 of them cost me a pretty penny too, they ain't cheap. oh, and everycue in my store has the same margin, i make sure of that.

 

[onepocketchump]

Are there any other sites out there besides platinum billiards that compare the performance of all these high performance shafts?

Also, since there is no hollow cavity in the tiger shaft to reduce deflection, how is it's performance any different than a solid maple shaft, and how can it be compared to the predator in performance?

Performance is a measure of results. Predator shafts are constructed the way they are in order to rate higher according to the performance benchmarks that Predator determined were important. If one were to use the same criteria that Predator used to compare all other shafts then one could come up with quantifiable data to show where each shaft stands in relation to one another.

How the construction of a shaft affects performance is exactly why they are tested against each other. In the absence of blind testing all conclusions are just anecdotal.

Since Predator has set the bar for the sales of shafts that are supposed to be better through engineering and testing it's only fair that they be subject to an outside and independent test to determine where they stand in relation to all of the other "high-performance" shafts on the market.

John

 

[Peer]

Varney Cues wrote:
> Have it from a reliable source that Predator's are now made in China.

I'm not sure if it's pure racial bigotry that makes people detest the fact that some products are produced in China (or any other foreign place, for that matter).

As long as a product corresponds to the expected quality, does it matter whether it's produced on the moon or in your backyard?

I don't get it.

-- peer

 

[pete lafond]

Several large 'American' production cue companies, and the largest wholesalers, including Cuestix, Cue & Case, and Sterling Gaming, all manufacture their product lines in China. That's no secret. Quality does not necessarily suffer...although there will always be some substandard manufacturing, regardless of where something is made. Lucasi and Fury are both well made, inexpensive, lines, even though they come from China. Can you find crappy cues made in China? Sure...just like you can find crappy cues made here too. However, truth be told, probably 80%+ of the cues made anywhere, for any company (American or not), come out of China...they just have a bunch of different names on them (many of which are very recognizable).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I agree and you can also buy some pretty good cues in the US, Europe,... We all play pool in all the countries so we should all take advantage. It's that damn oil we got t figure out..
.
.

 

[Scott Lee]

I wouldn't want to think that you were shilling in order to bash competing products and further the sale of what some people think are "overpriced" and overhyped products. Show me the performance difference in hard data and then I'll believe they are "better".

John

tap,tap,tap! We have a like mind, John!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[The PHOENIX]

John Doe started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN) for 6am. While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG). He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE) and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA). After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA) he sat down with his calculator (MADE IN MEXICO) to see how much he could spend today. After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the radio (MADE IN INDIA) he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY) and continued his search for a good paying AMERICAN JOB. At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day, Joe decided to relax for a while. He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL) poured himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE) and turned on his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA), and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in.....AMERICA.....

Buy American made products
The job you save might be your own.


Here is a billiard web site I found that relates to this subject.
http://www.usacues.com
Welcome to USA Pool Cues:
This website is dedicated to American Made Pool Cues. (snip, snip ) we specialize in American Made pool cues. We love US made pool cues not only for Patriotic reasons, but also because the best pool cues in the world are made in the USA! We sell American Made cues starting at $85.00!
US Pool Cue manufacturers offer many advantages over import cues, including:

Superior craftsmanship - Finish and Attention to Detail
Superior Playability - Better shaft wood and construction
Superior warranty - Many with lifetime warranties
Additional custom options - Viking, McDermott, Schmelke & Others
Superior Value - At the same price points, USA cues will play far better
We believe that the cue makers on this website make the best cues in the World!



Anything else !

 

[recoveryjones]

John Doe started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN) for 6am. While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG). He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE) and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA). After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA) he sat down with his calculator (MADE IN MEXICO) to see how much he could spend today. After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the radio (MADE IN INDIA) he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY) and continued his search for a good paying AMERICAN JOB. At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day, Joe decided to relax for a while. He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL) poured himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE) and turned on his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA), and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in.....AMERICA.....

Buy American made products
The job you save might be your own.


Tap! Tap! Tap!

Well written and very true.
RJ

 

[Deadon]

It is not bigotry, ethnic or racial bias to prefer to buy American. Many people would rather support local businesses than companies that outsource their work. It is simply a preference, and understandable. I'll buy from the small family market on the corner before I'll go to Walmart to save a couple of dollars. That being said, if you can't buy a comperable quality product here, what choice do you have.

 

[JoeyInCali]

It is not bigotry, ethnic or racial bias to prefer to buy American. Many people would rather support local businesses than companies that outsource their work. It is simply a preference, and understandable. I'll buy from the small family market on the corner before I'll go to Walmart to save a couple of dollars. That being said, if you can't buy a comperable quality product here, what choice do you have.

We make our choices.
Am not a racist or a bigot.
I collect knives. I do not buy knives made in China.

 

[Gregg]

Varney Cues wrote:
> Have it from a reliable source that Predator's are now made in China.

I'm not sure if it's pure racial bigotry that makes people detest the fact that some products are produced in China (or any other foreign place, for that matter).

As long as a product corresponds to the expected quality, does it matter whether it's produced on the moon or in your backyard?

I don't get it.

-- peer

Within the industry I work in, most of the equipment is/was manufactured in either Japan or Germany. 35 years ago, when the first of the equipment started coming in, nobody wanted Japanese equipment; I don't know if it was anti war sentiment, the belief that Japan could not produce quality goods, or what.

Yes, Japan had some growing pains, but eventually they got it right. Today, nobody wants equipment that's not from Japan, correct?

Today, everybody is going to China. The Japanese, the Germans. It's strange to receive spare parts from our German manufactures from China; It's kind of like receiving genuine spare parts from BMW with a "made in China" sticker on it. But that's just how it is.

When Predator "introduced" their new line, like a lot of companies do, it's more of a way to introduce products NOW being manufactured in a different location, since the tooling and equipment is not going to duplicate their old equipment.

There are many ways to do this. Some chose to attempt to fly under the radar, and simply change the manufacturing facility and product without any fanfare or education of the consumer. Or they change the model to a new and not so improved model. This produces a "new and not so improved" product line, many times. Many times, people are willing to spend more money for new old stock inventory, or worse, as much for used equipment as new.

The problems arise when people start feeling duped when they are finding out that Predator is trying to pedal their cues and shafts at the same old price, when they are paying a fraction of the old production costs.

Fact is, in time, China will get it right, and produce quality pool cues, among other things. It's sad to see a company sell out when the had the market cornered, and could really charge just about anything they wanted to for their shafts. The reality is that they didn't have to go overseas, like many other companies, just in order to survive. But, why put off the inevitable, I guess? It's progressive thinking that got Predator to where they are today.

 

[Purdman]

First Meucci and now Predator, who next? Maybe McDermott?

What do you mean next? Who do you think is making the McD Bluds? Mc D has had a relationship with China for quite some time.
Purdman

 

[onepocketchump]

John Doe started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN) for 6am. While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG). He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE) and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA). After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA) he sat down with his calculator (MADE IN MEXICO) to see how much he could spend today. After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the radio (MADE IN INDIA) he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY) and continued his search for a good paying AMERICAN JOB. At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day, Joe decided to relax for a while. He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL) poured himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE) and turned on his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA), and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in.....AMERICA.....

Buy American made products
The job you save might be your own.


Here is a billiard web site I found that relates to this subject.
http://www.usacues.com
Welcome to USA Pool Cues:
This website is dedicated to American Made Pool Cues. (snip, snip ) we specialize in American Made pool cues. We love US made pool cues not only for Patriotic reasons, but also because the best pool cues in the world are made in the USA! We sell American Made cues starting at $85.00!
US Pool Cue manufacturers offer many advantages over import cues, including:

Superior craftsmanship - Finish and Attention to Detail
Superior Playability - Better shaft wood and construction
Superior warranty - Many with lifetime warranties
Additional custom options - Viking, McDermott, Schmelke & Others
Superior Value - At the same price points, USA cues will play far better
We believe that the cue makers on this website make the best cues in the World!



Anything else !

Sure - most of the cuemakers on that site buy their wood from brokers who bring it in form Canada and all over the world, the steel comes from Japan for the joints, some of the cuemakers sell wood to China. Some of the cuemakers buy parts that came from foreign countries.

Some of the cuemakers trade their cues for other products made in foreign countries that they then sell in the USA.

It's all convoluted isn't it? Not quite so easy to understand that we all live on a planet that we cannot escape. The earth doesn't care how men carve it up and where they plant their flags. The cue you hold in your hands is the product of labor and natural resources from all over the globe no matter where the label says it was "made".

And as for Joe above. If he cared half as much about making a better world than getting a high paying job so he can afford more toys then he wouldn't be unemployed.

John

 

[Craig Fales]

Even if true, why would manufacturing a pool cue in China necessarily bring lower quality?

just look at what historically comes from China....junk....and it doesn't matter who it is...once you go China quality goes south...

Today, everybody is going to China. The Japanese, the Germans. It's strange to receive spare parts from our German manufactures from China; It's kind of like receiving genuine spare parts from BMW with a "made in China" sticker on it. But that's just how it is.

Just more sellouts...

Fact is, in time, China will get it right, and produce quality pool cues, among other things. It's sad to see a company sell out when the had the market cornered, and could really charge just about anything they wanted to for their shafts. The reality is that they didn't have to go overseas, like many other companies, just in order to survive. But, why put off the inevitable, I guess? It's progressive thinking that got Predator to where they are today.

That's true...it's all about the quality when they are coming from China...
________

 

[onepocketchump]

Fact is, in time, China will get it right, and produce quality pool cues, among other things. It's sad to see a company sell out when the had the market cornered, and could really charge just about anything they wanted to for their shafts. The reality is that they didn't have to go overseas, like many other companies, just in order to survive. But, why put off the inevitable, I guess? It's progressive thinking that got Predator to where they are today.

It's advertising that got Predator where they are. Here's a challenge for you all. Find one piece of advertising anywhere where Predator ever revealed the origins of all the cues they sell.

Predator, like many other companies, buys product from many other companies that produce their goods in many locations.

Predator is not "selling out". Everyone assumes that when a company moves production to a new place that it is because of labor costs. There are many factors that influence a decision to do so. One big one is if the factory you previously used closes it's doors. This happened to me.

And Predator doesn't have the market cornered and they can't charge anything they want to for their shafts. Predator faces new competition daily. The wholesale, retail and consumer sectors do not have to absorb Predator's price increases and inconsistent delivery when they have options. They have to respond to market pressure like any other company with competition. If Predator could charge what they wanted then all the production would be done in Jacksonville and the shafts would cost $500 each with no discounts.

It's a vicious cycle. As long as the consumer dollars go to the lowest priced product then the production will flow to the lowest priced labor. The irony is that with more business the lowest cost labor countries begin to get a higher standard of living, a skilled workforce and younger generations of educated people who demand and get more for their work. So eventually, like Japan, they enter the first world dominion and are no longer attractive as low cost labor havens. Taiwan is beginning to do it's own research and development, it's own marketing, and it's own purchasing of global interests.

We all live on Earth.

John

 

[Matt_24]

Here is the thing.

A cue, shaft, joint, etc, made for Predator, Adams, whomever, is engineered to meet certain "specs" when manufactured in bulk. I'm no engineer so I can't relay the technical terms, but here is my point. If the product (for example a Predator 314 shaft or a Varney Break/Jump, whatever...) is being made to the exact same specs/standards, whether being done by one person in a custom shop, or 25 factory workers in China, then essentially the outcome is the same.

If the Predator products remain identical to those in the past (which I've personally always been quite happy with), then who cares where they are made. There is no sin in Predator making a profit.

Regarding any product...if Americans could make the same product in a factory, etc, and charge what the Chinese, Japanese, etc charge for production then it would be automatic that the companies would go through them. This is business. Also, this just isn't the case, whether we like it or not.

It is the same thing in the guitar market. For the longest time Japanese Fender Stratocasters were thought of to be a "cheaper" version than their American made counterpart. The same thing goes for the "Orville" guitars (Les Paul, etc) made in Japan (technically "Orville" by Gibson). You could buy these guitars on the second hand market for cheap prices. I guess I could throw the Ibanez name in their as well. In the last couple of years, people have realized that the Japanese manufacturers are making an equal (if not superior in the case of the Fenders) guitars and thus prices have risen on these guitars. Now these companies have "third" factories in Korea....so the guitars made in korea are the "cheap" versions. Why, because they're much cheaper to make and this reflects in the purchase price. Is the product cheaper?

We shouldn't be so blind to believe that just because a product comes from an overseas market and not "made in America", that it will be inferior. I've ready in particular about the exacting standards, and superb work ethic of the Japanese workforce. This is why all of their companies, products, etc have been such a success in America. Superb quality for superb prices. I know I have a Toyota and an Acura....and before that I had an Acura, and before that a Toyota, and before that a honda....................I didn't keep buying these vehicles because they were crap.

Anyhow, just wanted to throw in my two (or more like forty) cents.

 

[onepocketchump]

just look at what historically comes from China....junk....and it doesn't matter who it is...once you go China quality goes south...

Historically? In whose history? China has a rich history of innovation and has produced some of the most intricate art as well as some of the most technologically advanced things. China was the first nation to navigate and map the globe. There is compelling evidence that they colonised the Americas long before the Europeans.

I would put up all of our cues in the $100 and up range against any so-called "American" made cues in a blind test. Let's send them to a lab and have them tested with a wide range of criteria and see how they stack up. I think you will find that point-for-point the imported cues will hold their own. 15 years ago the differences were apparent to any layman. Now, I could put any name I want to on cues coming in and only the most experienced cuemaker/collector could tell the difference.

I saw Southwest style cues in Taiwan that "HIT" exactly like SouthWest cues. NO DIFFERENCE in hit, look, balance, feel and apparently workmanship. The cost? 3-500 each wholesale. The point being that good input equals good output. Given the technology, the knowledge and the right materials there is no reason why a JossWest cannot be produced in China.

John

 

[supergreenman]

Here is the thing.

A cue, shaft, joint, etc, made for Predator, Adams, whomever, is engineered to meet certain "specs" when manufactured in bulk. I'm no engineer so I can't relay the technical terms, but here is my point. If the product (for example a Predator 314 shaft or a Varney Break/Jump, whatever...) is being made to the exact same specs/standards, whether being done by one person in a custom shop, or 25 factory workers in China, then essentially the outcome is the same.
.

Do you mean to tell me you believe that the quality of a shaft made by a craftsman who's buisness depends on the quality of his product would be the same as a shaft made in a sweat factory by someone who is making a dollar a day.

I don't think so.

I'll stick with domestic products where ever I have the choice.