Predator shaft question

[av84fun]

Bill Porter...Ya know what...re-reading cornerman's post I have to agree that I mixed my metaphors. When he wrote "work" the same way, reading quickly and thinking slowly, I took "work" to mean " cue ball function" when he meant "object ball behavior.

Does that make sense to you? It doesn't to me...nor does my response to cornerman. (-:

Seriously though, the REASON the CB goes in the same direction is different...not the same...and that is what led me down the path of destruction.

Re: the swerve, the CB goes right...IF you hit it at all...LARGELY because of the curved path of the CB on its way to the OB...and to a much lesser extent because of spin throw.

Conversely, using only spin throw causes the CB to go in the direction opposite the spin due almost entirely to the spin with possibly a tiny amount of swerve. To THAT extent the shots "work" differently while producing the same result...that was my point...which I screwed up royally.

But I finished 3rd in a 9 Ball tournament at JOB's getting knocked out by Bobby Pickle so I am in a DAMN good mood for hanging in there with a CHAMPION!!

(-:

 

[Rod]

Cornerman...

No way ON EARTH that is correct. Set up a shot from the break spot and aim and the center of the opposite cushion. Use 2 tips of side. Shoot fairly hard and you will get AT LEAST one ballwidth deflection with most regular shafts and virtually ZERO swerve. At high speeds, the spin simply does not have a chance to "take."

That is quite a statement, not about the swerve but about the squirt. So your saying at LEAST 1 balls width of squirt. How about this set up a similar shot, distance,speed etc and try to pocket the ball or just hit it for that matter according to your statement. Here is a std shot.

Your shooting the 9 ball with two tips of left at a firm speed. What your saying, correct me if wrong, that you'll miss the 9 completely on the right side? The 1, 5 and 3 are set up as ghost balls to show c/b path.

START(
%AI7E6%BL7P8%CI5G2%DL7N1%EI9D1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IH4E2%Pn4L0
%UK4G8%Vo5L2%YK9D7%Zo4L2%]K4F2%^o4L2
)END

http://cuetable.com/WeiTable/


Are you sure about that statement? I know I wouldn't miss the 9 ball completely on the right side. It appears then your saying your aim line is at the three to pocket the 9 ball? I know I'd never aim that far to the left either.

Rod

 

[buddha162]

What if the weight increase is so small that you can't even measure the increase in deflection?

It seems that is what Varney is claiming, and I would find that acceptable in terms of keeping a predator's squirt characteristics intact for all intents and purposes, if true.

The phantom argument that Fred refers to is just that: no one ever contended that a.) his mods would not produce a better hit for some players, and b.) the increase in squirt would be consequential to some players. You're correct, my argument was rooted in the theoretical, but I do think that there is a good possibility his mods would increase squirt in measurable amounts. In any case, I think there is legitimate cause for skepticism, esp since I am someone who prefers the hit of a regular shaft but sacrifice that for the lower squirt of a 314.

But my skepticism of his claim that it would not affect---at all---the performance of a 314 prompted a rabid defensiveness that was just asinine. "How many cues did you make?" "How many predators did you modify?" This retarded challenge is followed by freebie upgrades to members here and using their promised feedback as a wagering chip over something that was never even in contest. "We'll wait and see what so and so says about what he prefers." What he prefers in what? the hit? the squirt? the color of his new ferrule?

I'm sorry but that's just sad. If he simply said what you said to clarify his position, ie material used so light, increased squirt negligible, we wouldn't be in this ridiculous spot.

-Roger

 

[Cornerman]

Bill Porter...Ya know what...re-reading cornerman's post I have to agree that I mixed my metaphors. When he wrote "work" the same way, reading quickly and thinking slowly, I took "work" to mean " cue ball function" when he meant "object ball behavior.

Does that make sense to you? It doesn't to me...nor does my response to cornerman. (-:

Seriously though, the REASON the CB goes in the same direction is different...not the same...and that is what led me down the path of destruction.

Re: the swerve, the CB goes right...IF you hit it at all...LARGELY because of the curved path of the CB on its way to the OB...and to a much lesser extent because of spin throw.

I'm glad we got that covered. At least now we're on the same page.

What I did many years ago was kept on saying, "I didn't throw it enough," or "I threw it too much." I'm sure 90% of the board said or says the same thing. So, I set up experiments to see how much throw I really should be expect, by trying to isolate throw. And, what I found was that spin throw was a lot less than I ever expect. And with clean warm balls, I hardly could see any throw.

What I did notice was on certain shots, how much swerve happened. To address Shane Sinnot's comment (and I"m sure he knows this as well), it's very rare that you shoot a shot with a dead level cue. Even the slightest elevation will swerve the ball unless you shoot the ball fast enough that the swerve doesn't have time to take. Anything with any decent length or less than that fast speed will get affected.

And the most deadly was bridging off a rail. Someone posted a theory on this a while ago, but I found that shooting the same shot at the same speed, but one bridging on the rail , and the other not bridging on the rail, I'd get way more swerve (even as flat as I could humanly get the stick). I'm sure it has to do with the forced downward angle, but I never realized how bad it could get until I was doing these specific experiments. And I'm sure many people have noticed this as well.

So, that's why I say swerve is greater than throw. Today, when I hit english shots, I only think of them in terms of squirt heavy, swerve heavy, or balanced. I do think about throw, but not in any great respect.

If someone else has done some other experiments and found the opposite to be true, I'm all ears.

Fred

 

[DougT]

This is an enlightening post, and thanks for your test and observations

What I did many years ago was kept on saying, "I didn't throw it enough," or "I threw it too much." I'm sure 90% of the board said or says the same thing. So, I set up experiments to see how much throw I really should be expect, by trying to isolate throw. And, what I found was that spin throw was a lot less than I ever expect. And with clean warm balls, I hardly could see any throw.

What I did notice was on certain shots, how much swerve happened. To address Shane Sinnot's comment (and I"m sure he knows this as well), it's very rare that you shoot a shot with a dead level cue. Even the slightest elevation will swerve the ball unless you shoot the ball fast enough that the swerve doesn't have time to take. Anything with any decent length or less than that fast speed will get affected.

And the most deadly was bridging off a rail. Someone posted a theory on this a while ago, but I found that shooting the same shot at the same speed, but one bridging on the rail , and the other not bridging on the rail, I'd get way more swerve (even as flat as I could humanly get the stick). I'm sure it has to do with the forced downward angle, but I never realized how bad it could get until I was doing these specific experiments. And I'm sure many people have noticed this as well.

So, that's why I say swerve is greater than throw. Today, when I hit english shots, I only think of them in terms of squirt heavy, swerve heavy, or balanced. I do think about throw, but not in any great respect.

If someone else has done some other experiments and found the opposite to be true, I'm all ears.

Fred

 

[JoeyInCali]

No way ON EARTH that is correct. Set up a shot from the break spot and aim and the center of the opposite cushion. Use 2 tips of side. Shoot fairly hard and you will get AT LEAST one ballwidth deflection with most regular shafts and virtually ZERO swerve.

How hard?
Like 4 rails speed?
Backhand or parallel english?
What if shorten the bridge or bridge at the flex point of the shaft?

 

[Andrew Manning]

That is quite a statement, not about the swerve but about the squirt. So your saying at LEAST 1 balls width of squirt. How about this set up a similar shot, distance,speed etc and try to pocket the ball or just hit it for that matter according to your statement. Here is a std shot.

Your shooting the 9 ball with two tips of left at a firm speed. What your saying, correct me if wrong, that you'll miss the 9 completely on the right side? The 1, 5 and 3 are set up as ghost balls to show c/b path.

START(
%AI7E6%BL7P8%CI5G2%DL7N1%EI9D1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IH4E2%Pn4L0
%UK4G8%Vo5L2%YK9D7%Zo4L2%]K4F2%^o4L2
)END

http://cuetable.com/WeiTable/


Are you sure about that statement? I know I wouldn't miss the 9 ball completely on the right side. It appears then your saying your aim line is at the three to pocket the 9 ball? I know I'd never aim that far to the left either.

Rod

What kind of cue/shaft do you shoot with? With my Joss, the answer is yes, two tips of parallel right english would make me miss the entire 9 ball to the left, assuming I'm hitting the ball hard. Here's a shot I use sometimes:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3BYnH1CIFf2...QXgr3RVEG2kSQE3kXgq3kHQk4kbAd2kbfn2kWwL2kWwL@

I'm going for 2 or 3 rail position on the 3 with a ton of running english, because I don't have the stroke to draw from there, and follow will just make the CB hug the end rail. So I load it up with left. CB A represents the actual CB path, and CB B represents where I have to aim to pocket the ball.

-Andrew

 

[spliced]

I'm glad we got that covered. At least now we're on the same page.

What I did many years ago was kept on saying, "I didn't throw it enough," or "I threw it too much." I'm sure 90% of the board said or says the same thing. So, I set up experiments to see how much throw I really should be expect, by trying to isolate throw. And, what I found was that spin throw was a lot less than I ever expect. And with clean warm balls, I hardly could see any throw.

I play in a clean, warm poolhall, and I use throw a lot. (probably more than I should). Say I have the cueball and an object ball 4" apart, lined up straight to a blocked corner pocket. The object ball is on the foot spot, opposite the long corner. I want to keep my cue ball from moving too much. I can aim them at the corner and use throw to put that object ball in the side pocket. From only 4" away, I dont think the cue ball has much time to swerve at all. The throw is maximized the softer and better the shot is stroked.

Hope that made sense,
IM

 

[av84fun]

Rod...Hello...Your set up didn't conform to what I stated. I need to figure out how to use the WEI table thingy but...

put the CB near the head rail...dead center. Put an OB frozen to the center foot spot and aim to hit it dead center.

Use maximum english...either side...and shoot hard. With most...but certainly not all..."regular" shafts you will miss the OB entirely or very nearly so. If you do not...then your particular shaft has low cue ball deflection or "squirt" properties.

Refer to articles written by Bob Jewett (see link below) or many of the noted instruction books on pool and consult the Predator web site for the scientific results.

Regards,
Jim

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

 

[Cornerman]

I play in a clean, warm poolhall, and I use throw a lot. (probably more than I should). Say I have the cueball and an object ball 4" apart, lined up straight to a blocked corner pocket. The object ball is on the foot spot, opposite the long corner. I want to keep my cue ball from moving too much. I can aim them at the corner and use throw to put that object ball in the side pocket. From only 4" away, I dont think the cue ball has much time to swerve at all.

I don't think my post suggests anything about where the use of throw is or isn't most helpful, so I guess I won't go there. But, from only 4" away, on a soft stroke, yes, swerve does have enough time to happen.

Fred

 

[av84fun]

Cornerman...<<So, that's why I say swerve is greater than throw.>>

I hear what you are saying and I too wish that someone would do some scientific work on this..maybe Bob Jewett already has.

But here me out on this. I THINK that swerve acts over a much longer distance than throw. What I mean by that is that if you use a lot of english with the CB and OB very close together, the spin is imparted immediately and you will get a LOT of throw whereas, if the OB is farther away...say 4 feet...most of the spin will have dissipated and what you are left with is collision induced throw depending on the angle of approach between the CB and OB...which is a different animal.

On the contrary, the swerve caused by side and cue angle doesn't "take" immediately so the EFFECT...i.e. the act of curving does not happen in close proximity to the CB starting point...unless you are taling about masse' shots.

The POINT of all this is that in attempting to determine what the RESULT of any english will be (swerve andor throw) the distance between CB and OB makes a HUGE difference.

I think a LOT of shots are missed by top players (when they eventually do miss) because of a miscalculation re: the above.
Regards,
Jim

 

[Rod]

Rod...Hello...Your set up didn't conform to what I stated. I need to figure out how to use the WEI table thingy but...

put the CB near the head rail...dead center. Put an OB frozen to the center foot spot and aim to hit it dead center.

Use maximum english...either side...and shoot hard. With most...but certainly not all..."regular" shafts you will miss the OB entirely or very nearly so. If you do not...then your particular shaft has low cue ball deflection or "squirt" properties.

Refer to articles written by Bob Jewett (see link below) or many of the noted instruction books on pool and consult the Predator web site for the scientific results.

Regards,
Jim

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

Silly me when you said break spot I assumed you meant center of the head string with the o/b frozen to the center of the end rail. I see you break farther back. None the less I'm less than a diamond short.

So where do you aim to pocket that ball in my wei diagram? I'm amazed that anyone needs to aim at a ball to miss it to pocket that ball.

Rod

 

[Rod]

What kind of cue/shaft do you shoot with? With my Joss, the answer is yes, two tips of parallel right english would make me miss the entire 9 ball to the left, assuming I'm hitting the ball hard. Here's a shot I use sometimes:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3BYnH1CIFf2...QXgr3RVEG2kSQE3kXgq3kHQk4kbAd2kbfn2kWwL2kWwL@

I'm going for 2 or 3 rail position on the 3 with a ton of running english, because I don't have the stroke to draw from there, and follow will just make the CB hug the end rail. So I load it up with left. CB A represents the actual CB path, and CB B represents where I have to aim to pocket the ball.

-Andrew

Andrew, I don't aim anywhere near your point. To be honest I'd have to set it up to see exact angle I aim. I'll bet you have the stroke for draw, you just don't know how to use it yet. Aiming over there on the west coast isn't helping much either. LOL

I'll set it up this weekend and let you know. As an example freeze two balls on the end rail. Place the c/b between them with 1/2" or less clearance on each side. With c/b on the head spot fire it between that gap with max side english. It's easy for me to go between them. To answer your question, I play with a stock Schon shaft, slightly bigger than 13mm.

Rod

 

[av84fun]

Hi Rod...<<With c/b on the head spot fire it between that gap with max side english. It's easy for me to go between them. To answer your question, I play with a stock Schon shaft, slightly bigger than 13mm.>>

Since path deviation from squirt increases in proportion to the length the CB travels, you really need to move the CB back to, say 1/2 diamond from the head rail in order to test for the maximum amount of squirt deviation you can produce.

Also, I don't think we qualified table length...but I am talking about a 9' table.

In addition, "maximum side english" needs to be standardized as does the height above/below or ON the CB horizontal centerline and the speed/quality of the stroke because all those things can produce a significant difference in the amount of squirt produced.

Try this...again assuming that you play on a 9' table. Instead of the CB, use the 9 Ball with the stripe oriented vertically. Chalk the hell out of the tip so you will leave a mark. Place the "head" of the 9 (which will be laying on its side). Hopefully, you have "wide stripe" object balls or...again...we can't perform the exact same experiment.


Assuming that you use right side english...attempt to strike the 9 Ball on its exacty horizontal centerline with the LEFT side of the tip aimed at the RIGHT edge of the stripe. That would be the standard for maximum side english...although when you inspect the 9 ball you may find that you subconsciously "cheated" an 1/8th tip to the left for fear of miscuing.

Stroke as hard as you would when attempting your "A" break speed.

With all those variables in place, let us know if you can still get the 9 Ball between to two balls frozen to the opposite rail.

I will be majorly surprised if you can and will profusely compliment both your stroking skills and your cue.

But, in the interest of "science" please do look at your chalk mark to be sure that you are actually imparting maximum side and hit it hard as hell.

THANKS!

Jim

 

[X Breaker]

Rod,

I know what you are saying, and I agree with you.

When we watch Efren, we will notice that he can use a lot of english, and still hit the center of the two ball as you described--he does not hit the ball with "break speed"; he strokes the cue ball with a smooth delivery.


Richard

 

[Rod]

Hi Rod...<<With c/b on the head spot fire it between that gap with max side english. It's easy for me to go between them. To answer your question, I play with a stock Schon shaft, slightly bigger than 13mm.>>

Since path deviation from squirt increases in proportion to the length the CB travels, you really need to move the CB back to, say 1/2 diamond from the head rail in order to test for the maximum amount of squirt deviation you can produce.

Also, I don't think we qualified table length...but I am talking about a 9' table.

In addition, "maximum side english" needs to be standardized as does the height above/below or ON the CB horizontal centerline and the speed/quality of the stroke because all those things can produce a significant difference in the amount of squirt produced.

Try this...again assuming that you play on a 9' table. Instead of the CB, use the 9 Ball with the stripe oriented vertically. Chalk the hell out of the tip so you will leave a mark. Place the "head" of the 9 (which will be laying on its side). Hopefully, you have "wide stripe" object balls or...again...we can't perform the exact same experiment.


Assuming that you use right side english...attempt to strike the 9 Ball on its exacty horizontal centerline with the LEFT side of the tip aimed at the RIGHT edge of the stripe. That would be the standard for maximum side english...although when you inspect the 9 ball you may find that you subconsciously "cheated" an 1/8th tip to the left for fear of miscuing.

Stroke as hard as you would when attempting your "A" break speed.

With all those variables in place, let us know if you can still get the 9 Ball between to two balls frozen to the opposite rail.

I will be majorly surprised if you can and will profusely compliment both your stroking skills and your cue.

But, in the interest of "science" please do look at your chalk mark to be sure that you are actually imparting maximum side and hit it hard as hell.

THANKS!

Jim

Well no Jim I'm not interested. I mean good players don't smack the ball hard as hell with max english. Besides there is an easy way to tell how much english was used.

You may be right about the experiment, that's because max power and max side english don't go well together. Controlled power and english work very well. Hard as hell lacks controll big time. That used as a guide line for squirt spells like disaster to me. I simply don't shoot any shot that hard (no need to) and you'll be hard pressed finding good players that do. Show off yes maybe but not in a serious game. A man/pool player has to know their limitations!

If I compare or adjust for squirt it will be at slower speeds, short of break speed no doubt but still with plenty of speed to juice the ball very strong.

Rod

 

[av84fun]

Rod...<<Well no Jim I'm not interested. I mean good players don't smack the ball hard as hell with max english.>>

Rod, I didn't suggest that good players always shoot hard with maximum english. My set us was to test the amount of cue ball deflection caused by your shaft and was similar in intent to your suggestion to another poster...


<<As an example freeze two balls on the end rail. Place the c/b between them with 1/2" or less clearance on each side. With c/b on the head spot fire it between that gap with max side english. It's easy for me to go between them. To answer your question, I play with a stock Schon shaft, slightly bigger than 13mm.>>

So, you said to use max english and "fire it between that gap." suggesting quite a hard shot.

All I did was to refine YOUR suggested test to make it more standardized and to counteract what I thought was a misleading....not intentonally so on your part...suggestion that a Shon cue shaft caused virtually no squirt because that was the implication of your above statement.

In fact, there is probably no shaft in know use today that can do so under controlled circumstances and with anything other than a relatively soft-medium stroke...IF EVEN THEN.

Consult the chart linked below and you will see that Predator has succeeded in reducing squirt to about 46mm from about 60mm using a variety of traditional shafts. So, roughly 46mm is the LOWEST amount of squirt of which even shafts designed to reduce squirt are capable of.

But you said you can "easily" FIRE a shot with maximum side english and contain deflection to less than 1/2 inch which is about 13mm...or the width of your shaft at the tip.

If you can, you should CERTAINLY stop playing with it and offer it up for sale at a LARGE price to Predator or any of several other cue makers for scientific research.

<<Controlled power and english work very well.>> Right...right. This thread was not about "how to play your best pool." The thread is about cue ball deflection...cue stick induced deflection, squirt or whatever you want to call it...related to the Predator shaft.

And the fact of the matter is that this is an area of research/knowledge that still has a LONG way to go. Bob Jewett once pointed out that most of the pros he talked to couldn't even give him an accpetable definition of what squirt is or what causes it and most just learn BY ROTE where an OB goes when struck by a CB in a certain way.

That this area of discovery has not been fully exploited is proven by the MANY times we have all seen World Champion players miss shots that any league banger can make routinely.

OBVIOUSLY, world champions know how to aim...so the only reason for the miss was the application of some combination of spin and/or force that caused some unintended amount of throw, swerve or squirt.

Therefore, it is clearly beneficial to determine the maximum amount of squirt your shaft is likely to produce with maximum inputs so that you can calibrate down from there and not have to use the by guess and by God method.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Rod]

Rod...<<Well no Jim I'm not interested. I mean good players don't smack the ball hard as hell with max english.>>

Rod, I didn't suggest that good players always shoot hard with maximum english. My set us was to test the amount of cue ball deflection caused by your shaft and was similar in intent to your suggestion to another poster...

I know, no problem.


<<As an example freeze two balls on the end rail. Place the c/b between them with 1/2" or less clearance on each side. With c/b on the head spot fire it between that gap with max side english. It's easy for me to go between them. To answer your question, I play with a stock Schon shaft, slightly bigger than 13mm.>>

So, you said to use max english and "fire it between that gap." suggesting quite a hard shot.

Fire it means a firm stroke, that's it. At that speed and spin one can go anywhere on the table, lets not exaggerate that statement.

All I did was to refine YOUR suggested test to make it more standardized and to counteract what I thought was a misleading....not intentonally so on your part...suggestion that a Shon cue shaft caused virtually no squirt because that was the implication of your above statement.

In fact, there is probably no shaft in know use today that can do so under controlled circumstances and with anything other than a relatively soft-medium stroke...IF EVEN THEN.

Consult the chart linked below and you will see that Predator has succeeded in reducing squirt to about 46mm from about 60mm using a variety of traditional shafts. So, roughly 46mm is the LOWEST amount of squirt of which even shafts designed to reduce squirt are capable of.

But you said you can "easily" FIRE a shot with maximum side english and contain deflection to less than 1/2 inch which is about 13mm...or the width of your shaft at the tip.

At appx 5/8" between balls you could fit an 18 wheeler through there. LOL

If you can, you should CERTAINLY stop playing with it and offer it up for sale at a LARGE price to Predator or any of several other cue makers for scientific research.

You know and I know it's not a magical shaft. I have 4 of them, they all play very close to the same.

<<Controlled power and english work very well.>> Right...right. This thread was not about "how to play your best pool." The thread is about cue ball deflection...cue stick induced deflection, squirt or whatever you want to call it...related to the Predator shaft.

Well don't sell that comment to short. We obviously have different standards. I'll say again controlled power is how one should play so the extreme to me is not benifical.

And the fact of the matter is that this is an area of research/knowledge that still has a LONG way to go. Bob Jewett once pointed out that most of the pros he talked to couldn't even give him an accpetable definition of what squirt is or what causes it and most just learn BY ROTE where an OB goes when struck by a CB in a certain way.

That this area of discovery has not been fully exploited is proven by the MANY times we have all seen World Champion players miss shots that any league banger can make routinely.

OBVIOUSLY, world champions know how to aim...so the only reason for the miss was the application of some combination of spin and/or force that caused some unintended amount of throw, swerve or squirt.

You bring up aim. I'm trying to figure out how some people aim. I mean if one has to aim that far off to make a ball with english it doesn't make sense to me. I aim at the angle with the c/b, nothing more. If one is calling the aim line where the shaft is pointed using english, well, they are two different lines. That's the only way I can even relate to those far out aim points. This is definately not meant to start another one of those dreaded aim threads

Therefore, it is clearly beneficial to determine the maximum amount of squirt your shaft is likely to produce with maximum inputs so that you can calibrate down from there and not have to use the by guess and by God method.

Once again I don't see the need to find max squirt. I don't play that way so I'll just gear down from here, and have. I'd suggest no one else really needs that either, that is where we differ.

Regards,
Jim

Overall, I think tests are fine. I think a player needs to establish his guidelines first. If I asked a C player to shoot certain shots with extreme english, I dare say it would be asking to much. No disrespect to any player level but certain tests are only as good as your ability to deliver a SMOOTH and STRAIGHT stroke. When to much power becomes the issue a smooth stroke takes it in the shorts. I'm limited, we all are.

Rod

 

[tonov12]

Reviews?

So are there any reviews of Varney's tricked up Predator shaft? Come on guys, I wanna hear how you like it.

 

[Varney Cues]

So are there any reviews of Varney's tricked up Predator shaft? Come on guys, I wanna hear how you like it.

I know of at least one forum member who should of received his back by now.