Predator shaft question

For all of you that have played around with Poolcomps, note that they have left out two of the variables; swerve and squirt - only throw comes into play and only slightly.

Imagine trying to play this game with all three variables, especially squirt.

In real pool nothing can be done about swerve and throw but something has been done about squirt and it seems clear to me that each step made towards the elimination of this toughest of the variables should only make the game easier.

Steve
 
Rod...<<Fire it means a firm stroke, that's it. At that speed and spin one can go anywhere on the table, lets not exaggerate that statement.>>

I didn't mean to exaggerate anything. The connotation of the phrase "fire it" tends to suggest very high force...such as a bullet.

<<At appx 5/8" between balls you could fit an 18 wheeler through there. LOL>>

Well, now I've got you up to 5/8 from 1/2...progress! LOL
To suggest that the gap can be hit with a hard shot...with max side (about 12mm offset) and over 50 inch distance into that gap suggests that all the testing Predator has done has been falsified. They claim "only"
about 45cm deflection...roughly 1 3/4 inches so with the shot...as described...it would be impossible to hit the gap IF YOU AIMED AT THE CENTER OF THE GAP...and if you DON'T aim at the center, then you are PROVING THE POINT that deflection is a major issue under the conditions cited.

<<I'll say again controlled power is how one should play so the extreme to me is not benifical.>>

Right...FINE...dig it...but you are completely missing the point of this thread which was to discuss deflection not as I noted before...how to play your best pool.

But if your point is that deflection is meaningless then you are just simply wrong IMHO because it can be induced with FAR less than max power and/or side.

<<You bring up aim. I'm trying to figure out how some people aim. I mean if one has to aim that far off to make a ball with english it doesn't make sense to me. I aim at the angle with the c/b, nothing more. If one is calling the aim line where the shaft is pointed using english, well, they are two different lines. That's the only way I can even relate to those far out aim points. This is definately not meant to start another one of those dreaded aim threads>>

Again...the is little point in attemption to AIM when MAX deflection is induced because there is just too much of it and too impossible to predict...and while I will not tell you my aiming secrets...because then I'd have to kill you....(-: I can tell you for a fact that virtually every advanced player INTENTIONALLY ADJUSTS HIS/HER AIM to account for either/both deflection and throw and NOT adjusting the aim properly is the LEADING cause of championship players missing seemingly easy shots...those where they slam their cue butts to the floor and walk back to their seats dejectedly.

If you have ONE SINGLE point of aim regardless of your use of english and regardless of the power used...then you are missing many more shots than you should be...IMHO.

<<Once again I don't see the need to find max squirt. I don't play that way so I'll just gear down from here, and have. I'd suggest no one else really needs that either, that is where we differ.>>

Let's just say that you care about squirt...AT ALL (maybe you don't and that is your business). But if you DO and you think that a lower deflection shaft is preferable to higher deflection shafts...then you need to TEST them...and the degree of deflection is RELATIVELY constant over the range of power applied.

Now...since describing power in any terms other than "maximum" introduces and almost endless degree of differences so the tests would be apples to oranges. What YOU think is "soft" or "medium" or "firm" as you put it...but HARD as in break speed means pretty much the same thing to everyone.

What I mean by that is among advanced players, there probably isn't more than a 20% difference in miles per hour of their break speeds. But there can be a 50-100% difference in most of the other loosely defined speeds...like "medium to one player might be 4 mph and 6-8 mph for another. So, maximum speed is used to CALIBRATE the force applied so that deflection can be compared with reasonable precision.

For EXACTLY the same reason...i.e. having a standard of measurement from which comparisons can be drawn...the power of cars is stated in MAXIMUM horsepower.

Car makers don't say..."Well, if you are driving along at a "medium" amount of accelerator depressed, then the engine will develop X horsepower.

Do you see what I mean?

Regards,
Jim
 
inthezone...<<In real pool nothing can be done about swerve and throw but something has been done about squirt and it seems clear to me that each step made towards the elimination of this toughest of the variables should only make the game easier.>>

RIGHT!!! And remember that the widespread understanding of squirt is relatively new in the general pool player's mind. It has been WRITTEN about forever...nearly...but a lot of GREAT pool players of yesterday and today have NEVER read a single instructional text.

Bob Jewett once stated that most of the top pros he had talked to about cue ball deflection as recently as 10 years or so ago, couldn't give him a specific definition of what it was and NONE actually knew what caused it. (in an article for BD in 1994 I believe.)

They just learned...by trial and error...that if they are shooting a right cut with left english they need to aim a little further left or they would MISS due to hitting too fat at the firmer speeds.

Regards,
Jim
 
av84fun said:
Rod...<<Fire it means a firm stroke, that's it. At that speed and spin one can go anywhere on the table, lets not exaggerate that statement.>>

I didn't mean to exaggerate anything. The connotation of the phrase "fire it" tends to suggest very high force...such as a bullet.

This is fun--- forget bullets ok? sure, fire it means speed.

<<At appx 5/8" between balls you could fit an 18 wheeler through there. LOL>>

Well, now I've got you up to 5/8 from 1/2...progress! LOL

You don't have me up to anything, I said 18 wheeler not a cue ball. A cue ball takes much less area. LOL

To suggest that the gap can be hit with a hard shot...with max side (about 12mm offset) and over 50 inch distance into that gap suggests that all the testing Predator has done has been falsified. They claim "only"
about 45cm deflection...roughly 1 3/4 inches so with the shot...as described...it would be impossible to hit the gap IF YOU AIMED AT THE CENTER OF THE GAP...and if you DON'T aim at the center, then you are PROVING THE POINT that deflection is a major issue under the conditions cited.

I never said deflection wasn't an issue, it's just not anywhere near what you suggest. BTW, If my max offset is .450 inches (I measure in inches) do you think it would make a big difference?

<<I'll say again controlled power is how one should play so the extreme to me is not benifical.>>

Right...FINE...dig it...but you are completely missing the point of this thread which was to discuss deflection not as I noted before...how to play your best pool.

Actually I haven't missed a beat. Dig it, ok, I use to own a digger. What was it?

But if your point is that deflection is meaningless then you are just simply wrong IMHO because it can be induced with FAR less than max power and/or side.

Yey, we agree on something. Meaning, deflection exists and with less power that your silver bullet. You want to use your standard and I'm not going for it. That is why I use mine. Which seems to be the point your missing. I don't really think you missed it but you just want to use yours. Oh wait, your using gauarenteeeeeed results from pred. You aim precisely at the o/b at 52.6 inches at 16.7 mph, spin the ball and get within an inch of exact position. LOL Are you following my sarcasm?

<<You bring up aim. I'm trying to figure out how some people aim. I mean if one has to aim that far off to make a ball with english it doesn't make sense to me. I aim at the angle with the c/b, nothing more. If one is calling the aim line where the shaft is pointed using english, well, they are two different lines. That's the only way I can even relate to those far out aim points. This is definately not meant to start another one of those dreaded aim threads>>

Again...the is little point in attemption to AIM when MAX deflection is induced because there is just too much of it and too impossible to predict...and while I will not tell you my aiming secrets...because then I'd have to kill you....(-: I can tell you for a fact that virtually every advanced player INTENTIONALLY ADJUSTS HIS/HER AIM to account for either/both deflection and throw and NOT adjusting the aim properly is the LEADING cause of championship players missing seemingly easy shots...those where they slam their cue butts to the floor and walk back to their seats dejectedly.

Trust me, I don't want to know your aiming secrets. If I used yours, I'd kill myself.

If you have ONE SINGLE point of aim regardless of your use of english and regardless of the power used...then you are missing many more shots than you should be...IMHO.

I never said that, its a little fat on this one a little thin on another. That is my point, controlled power.

<<Once again I don't see the need to find max squirt. I don't play that way so I'll just gear down from here, and have. I'd suggest no one else really needs that either, that is where we differ.>>

Let's just say that you care about squirt...AT ALL (maybe you don't and that is your business). But if you DO and you think that a lower deflection shaft is preferable to higher deflection shafts...then you need to TEST them...and the degree of deflection is RELATIVELY constant over the range of power applied.

Mine are relatively consistent. I didn't order 2 extra shafts with just any size/taper 13 years ago. I want what I want. The problem is most players don't know what the hell they do want. Maybe you do, don't know, but most don't.

Now...since describing power in any terms other than "maximum" introduces and almost endless degree of differences so the tests would be apples to oranges. What YOU think is "soft" or "medium" or "firm" as you put it...but HARD as in break speed means pretty much the same thing to everyone.

Break speed is in your mind, whatever that is. Hard to most means they went past their ability to control the c/b, remember Whitey? That is why tests should not be done at such high speed. It has to be controlled within your (not you, but anyone's ability).

What I mean by that is among advanced players, there probably isn't more than a 20% difference in miles per hour of their break speeds. But there can be a 50-100% difference in most of the other loosely defined speeds...like "medium to one player might be 4 mph and 6-8 mph for another. So, maximum speed is used to CALIBRATE the force applied so that deflection can be compared with reasonable precision.

Yes, Yes, I know. But these players can't control the c/b at those speeds. What difference does it make if you have no clue where whitey is going? Do you think a C player can smack the ball and hit it with accuracy? If you do then it's beyond me.

For EXACTLY the same reason...i.e. having a standard of measurement from which comparisons can be drawn...the power of cars is stated in MAXIMUM horsepower.

Car makers don't say..."Well, if you are driving along at a "medium" amount of accelerator depressed, then the engine will develop X horsepower.

Do you see what I mean?

I do but let's let the forum members chime in. (Please) You want a player to smack the ball hard ( maximum or near maxium effort) to test the squirt of their cue.

I want them to slow down, no need for max effort. Lets say 20% ok? It's still hard but not real hard. Accuracy is improved because you have more consistency.

Regards,
Jim
Click to expand...

Like to play some, sometime.

Rod
 
Deflect-Swerve-Curve-Squirt?

Me thinks some of you guys got up on the wrong side of the bed. Put me on Riboners team. I like Predator shafts I might like Varneys, I don't know as I have never tried one.Do you need to know physics to bank a cross side,I don't think so. I believe if I had a question about a pool cue I would ask a cuemaker like Varney. What you get from Varney is an honest opinion from experience. So all you rocket scientist hang in there but me thinks you could be just a little busy beiween the ears.


Pinocchio
 
?????????

Maybe some of you rocket scientist that don"t like pred. should try the OB-1 although I can say Ill not be playing with a plywood shaft or plywood ferrule.Just a Thought:


Pinocchio
 
JoeyInCali said:
Ronnie Alcano should have stuck with Predator.:eek:
Click to expand...
May be Dennis Orcullo, Efren Reyes, Ronnie Alcano, Johnny Archer, Earl Strickland, Wu, Kuo, and so on do not understand squirt as well as some of the posters here.:)

By the way, although Ronnie Alcano did not win the WPC with a 314 shaft, I somehow have a feeling his picture will be on the front home page of Predator's site real soon.:)

Richard
 
nipponbilliards said:
May be Dennis Orcullo, Efren Reyes, Ronnie Alcano, Johnny Archer, Earl Strickland, Wu, Kuo, and so on do not understand squirt as well as some of the posters here.:)

I'm sure that's true but I suspect that the main reason many seasoned players don't switch to low squirt shafts is that they are so used to the other.
Click to expand...
 
inthezone said:
nipponbilliards said:
May be Dennis Orcullo, Efren Reyes, Ronnie Alcano, Johnny Archer, Earl Strickland, Wu, Kuo, and so on do not understand squirt as well as some of the posters here.:)

I'm sure that's true but I suspect that the main reason many seasoned players don't switch to low squirt shafts is that they are so used to the other.
Click to expand...
Alcano used it then switched to regular shaft.
He prolly has no clue on swerve and squirt/deflection.
Click to expand...
 
I got my shaft back from Varney on friday. The instillations looks great. Its been a busy weekend here. Got to play a little pool with it and it does feel better to me than the regular 314 and the 314^2 I have with the moori med tips. The 314 Varney did has a Saber T ferrule and sniper tip. I'm going to play with it for a couple days before I post any more.

I'm going to try to test the deflection as best I can to compare the Varney modified 314 to the other shafts I have. I think setting up the shot as shown below using two stripped balls would help with aiming and consistant tip position. I thought I would aim the center of the cue tip through the right edge of the stripe on the 15 ball and also pick a spot to aim the center of the tip on the 11 ball (using the stripe on the 11 ball to help with aiming at different parts of the OB). I'll try to use a level cue and pretty firm speed on a fast table to help minimize swerve.

You guys think this is a good test or have any suggestions?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@0x3KOCk2OOHV2TOwQ3phpP1uAIV@
 
ShaneT58 said:
I got my shaft back from Varney on friday. The instillations looks great. Its been a busy weekend here. Got to play a little pool with it and it does feel better to me than the regular 314 and the 314^2 I have with the moori med tips. The 314 Varney did has a Saber T ferrule and sniper tip. I'm going to play with it for a couple days before I post any more.

I'm going to try to test the deflection as best I can to compare the Varney modified 314 to the other shafts I have. I think setting up the shot as shown below using two stripped balls would help with aiming and consistant tip position. I thought I would aim the center of the cue tip through the right edge of the stripe on the 15 ball and also pick a spot to aim the center of the tip on the 11 ball (using the stripe on the 11 ball to help with aiming at different parts of the OB). I'll try to use a level cue and pretty firm speed on a fast table to help minimize swerve.

You guys think this is a good test or have any suggestions?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@0x3KOCk2OOHV2TOwQ3phpP1uAIV@
Click to expand...


I like the Aim & Pivot Test described in the RSB Faq. http://www.sfbilliards.com/faq.html Section 7

If you're going to do a test to compare squirt, you need to make sure that swerve is out of the test as much as possible. So, long shots shouldn't even be considered, as far as the test goes. The shot should be controlled firm, so no wild warp speed shots either.

So, when I test for squirt, I shoot a straight in shot at no more than a couple of feet, finding the pivot point that allows me to stick that cueball in place, spinning like a madman. Comparing two cues would be a matter of comparing pivot points. Predators pivot points are generally well longer than 30". Normal cues are normally under 15" pivot points.

These numbers don't jibe with Platinum Billiard test results, so I don't know how they are testing and what they're considering as "Pivot Points."

For more info on Pivot Points and squirt, check out Colin Colenso's video.

Fred
 
Pinocchio said:
Me thinks some of you guys got up on the wrong side of the bed. Put me on Riboners team. I like Predator shafts I might like Varneys, I don't know as I have never tried one.Do you need to know physics to bank a cross side,I don't think so. I believe if I had a question about a pool cue I would ask a cuemaker like Varney. What you get from Varney is an honest opinion from experience. So all you rocket scientist hang in there but me thinks you could be just a little busy beiween the ears.


Pinocchio
Click to expand...


I think more importantly is that all of us are pool players first and foremost. People who want to mock the scientific discussion should remember this fact.

Who else would be on this board who isn't a diehard pool fanatic? Most of us are crazy enough to have given most of our lives to this sport. In that light, our experience should matter, regardless of whether or not we have anything to do with making cues.

And, cuemakers can do well to learn from other industries. Anyone who doesn't think this is short-changing themselves.

Fred
 
Keep in mind when considering this "modification" to your Predator shafts that it will void the warranty. The new second gen shafts have a much better sound and feel if that is what you have problems with.
 
ShaneT58...<<You guys think this is a good test or have any suggestions?>>

Use the 9 Ball. The chalk shows up better on yellow. Having done the exact test you describe, you may find that...at first...you will get the tip too for to the inside of the shot...due to fear of miscuing. Also note that the chalk will ALWAYS be on the stripe...not on the white part of the balls due the the roundness of both tip and ball..the CENTER of the tip won't make contact with that much offset.

Regards,
Jim
 
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