Pro One vs TOI

[AtLarge]

Will the amount of TOI change if the distance between the OB and CB is different like greater or lesser?

Sure. Squirt is essentially a straight-line phenomenon, angled from the line of the cue stick. (Assume the CB has been hit firmly enough that we can ignore swerve.) So the farther the CB travels on the squirt line before hitting the OB, the farther it is away from straight (the line of the stick) -- that is, the thinner it will cut the OB.

This is one of the reasons I said the following: "So TOI2 is a method that requires the development of an enormous amount of “feel” to hit the CB in exactly the right spot in that zone of just a little over half an inch (or less if you aren’t on the equator) to the inside from center CB to make shots at all the possible different angles from all the possible different CB/OB separations.

Now, I believe CJ has said that he angles his stick downward a bit to actually create a bit of swerve to offset some of the squirt at long range. That, also, seems like a "feel" sort of thing. But maybe it helps him remain more consistent in choosing the amount of tip offset needed.

 

[CJ Wiley]

The foundation of using TOI is directly related to using zones

Rick,

I know you have been playing a loonngg time.

What might help to cut down on the learning curve is to make sure that you are just using the shoulder of the tip and coming just off center of the QB.

Wait until you start trying playing position. What I have found is to play TOI position on the next shot you have to force the QB where you want it to go and not depend on spin. If you have to use spin use it to get your QB back into TOI position.

Don't try to put the QB on an exact spot, just play the shot zone on the next shot.

Hang in there, it does take a while to feel comfortable using TOI.

John

That' right, John, the foundation of TOI is directly related to using zones. The 3 Part Pocket System is a zone, and so is the way we go about playing position. Without these things TOI is just another form of the conventional way of playing.

The conventional way of playing is much more complicated than the TOI style and I see players that don't understand it try to make it more complicated to it's more familiar. This won't work, and drifts the player further and further from the truth about how to actually apply the TOI.

If you don't know what zones go to my web site and watch the free video on beating the 15 Ball ghost, I explain as I run the balls what a zone is and how to see them on the pool table. www.cjwiley.com

 

[CJ Wiley]

"It's simple to make things complicated, and complicated to make things simple".

I was taught TOI at the beginning by just cuing the cue ball on the inside every time and learning to run out that way. Over the course of three hours I had an "awakening," and I've shared that. Over the course of the next 3 weeks it became more and more clear from my experience using it on the table. Trying to "figure TOI out" is not something I recommend if you want to learn, I suggest doing it in a way that is proven successful.

Some people's understanding of TOI is like my understanding of doing an overhaul on a racing engine. The reason the top pros are able to play so well is because their system (whatever they use) is very simple. So simple it's based on anchors that we won't explain (so we seldom try) to anyone except another champion player - it's like another language.

"It's simple to make things complicated, and complicated to make things simple"......TOI is very simple, there's no reason to make it complicated. I make it much easier to understand on the DVD because I can demonstrate shots and explain in much more detail. There's no swerve issues, or need for exceptional feel using TOI, it's very straight forward IF you experience it on the pool table. No one will every figure out what a strawberry tastes like without tasting it, and no one will ever play pool well without playing it.

Sometimes we have to use the "right brain," not the "left brain" to understand things, that's where the creativity is and pool is a creative game that relies on touch and feel, not "deductive reasoning".

'The Game{not our brain}is the Teacher'

 

[ENGLISH!]

Hey Rick,

Thanks for posting your session results. Sounds like you were hard at it.

Just a couple of thoughts I've found to be happening with the TOI and my game...Hitting the cue ball harder when the balls are less than a couple of diamonds apart won't make the cue ball deflect more. You wont create a bigger angle with speed unless you're a little distance away from the object ball.

You can hold balls better with a tighter grip. I kill balls with a firm grip and shorter stroke. When I need to create an angle, a fairly loose grip works best.

As far as TOI 2 goes, I wouldn't mess with it until your brain lets TOI 1 sink in. Too much info too soon, I think. I played with TOI1 for several months before I experimented with TOI 2. The ideas you put into play with the CTC and CTE alignments won't work without trust and a solid connection to the pocket. Until you have a handle on the deflection, your mind will be trying too hard to figure it out and you'll actually be sabotaging your progress.

CJ has said the two alignments are advanced techniques that require a solid foundation and should be learned after the other stuff becomes ingrained. You don't necessarily need TOI to utilize the two alignments, but you do need an uncluttered mind.

Best,
Mike

Thanks Mike,

You may be correct. Shooting with the TOI mind set works best for me right now when I just shoot the shot with the slight inside tip placement with a firm enough stroke so that the ball does not swerve back. Difficult cut shots generally go straight to the back of the pocket that way. When I align to the CTC or CTE, doubt does creep in unless those are very near to the actual shot lines.

I don't think my mind is cluttered as the idea is simple. It just seems wrong to align to those points when they are not near the true shot line. If those points are not near the true shot line & I hit center CB with no deflection those shots do not go into the full hit side of the pocket so the increased margin for error at the CB for pocketing the ball is not there.

Now if I were to use CJ's aiming system from his other DVD I could understand that it would still be there. Maybe CJ is doing that, but he has not said that he is aligning different portions of the ball. Doing that is sort of like using the equal & opposite fractional overlap system. I don't see that as a point to point. It's a section to section connection. That is what is working for me when setting up to the full side of the pocket.

I may not be able to get to level 2 or maybe level 3 will make level 2 more clear to me. Either way it's okay because I like the TOI as I'm using it.

Thanks again for the encoragement & helpful ideas.

Best Regards,

 

[CJ Wiley]

He took great pleasure in connecting to the CB and REALLY feeling the sensation.

Thanks Mike,

You may be correct. Shooting with the TOI mind set works best for me right now when I just shoot the shot with the slight inside tip placement with a firm enough stroke so that the ball does not swerve back. Difficult cut shots generally go straight to the back of the pocket that way. When I align to the CTC or CTE, doubt does creep in unless those are very near to the actual shot lines.

I don't think my mind is cluttered as the idea is simple. It just seems wrong to align to those points when they are not near the true shot line. If those points are not near the true shot line & I hit center CB with no deflection those shots do not go into the full hit side of the pocket so the increased margin for error at the CB for pocketing the ball is not there.

Now if I were to use CJ's aiming system from his other DVD I could understand that it would still be there. Maybe CJ is doing that, but he has not said that he is aligning different portions of the ball. Doing that is sort of like using the equal & opposite fractional overlap system. I don't see that as a point to point. It's a section to section connection. That is what is working for me when setting up to the full side of the pocket.

I may not be able to get to level 2 or maybe level 3 will make level 2 more clear to me. Either way it's okay because I like the TOI as I'm using it.

Thanks again for the encoragement & helpful ideas.

Best Regards,

This may be presumuous, however, when you keep bringing up "swerve" it leads me to believe you are pivoting slightly. You may want to do a drill that I've used with players that are pivoting and can't "feel" it.

If you need to go TOI to the right start off by pivoting left, THEN move parallel over to your TOI right position. This has worked in a few cases and will quickly give you a new sensation of how the TOI is applied. This is another thing I can see right away and help you with, and in writing it may be difficult to understand, so I'm going to describe it TOI to the left also.

If you need to cue TOI to the left, start off pivoting to the right, then move parallel to the left TOI position. This will show you that the shot line is slightly different than what yours is currently. It's merely exaggerating a "non" pivot TOI....to make the necessary changes sometimes it pays to exaggerate. I did this with correcting a distance/stance issue years ago.

This is JUST a drill and I don't recommend doing the TOI normally like this, however, I'm getting the impression it will help you. When you pivot correctly there's no threat of swerve unless you're hitting a "stun" type shot. Remember, it's the feel of the pocket that you're trying to generate, so you have to accentuate the hit of the cue ball.

One thing I could always tell about Keith McCready

is how connected he was to hitting the cue ball. He took great pleasure in connecting to the CB and REALLY feeling the sensation. This is how you develop Touch, that's why I shudder when players start talking too technical regarding the TOI because it moves them further away from finding their maximum "Touch". (and the game will not be their teacher)

 

[8pack]

I imagine CJ will give a more esoteric answer. Here's my simple view of it.

The first 5 shots look to be under 30-degree cuts. So: (1) align center CB to center OB; (2) offset the stick to the inside (left) of center CB parallel to the initial alignment; and (3) shoot. If you undercut it, you didn't go far enough inside; if you overcut it, you went too far inside.

The second 5 shots look to be more than 30-degree cuts. So: (1) align center CB to outside (right) edge of OB. Then do as above for the first 5 shots.

Edit: This is for TOI2.

He must not be sure.:smile:

If you go at like he describes two aim points on the ob and one on the cb(maybe 2) something has to change.Shot speed or toi spot to create the rite pocket angle.
(Pro1 vs TOI )while deflecting the ball to create a over cut is very helpful just as long as the pocket line you chose is cloose to the thick side of the pocket.
I have my own thoughts on pivoting (pro1 ) it is as good as your going to get to the rite shot line .

PRO1 trumps toi easily plus Stan dosnt have all them edits.

I watched Steve playing SVB and noticed Steve getting down low to get his visuals.(i think)I tried it last nite and I think you
can actually see the lines better when your lower.Not saying you cant see them from above to me it just seemed clearer the lower you get in the shot.

This is only my opinion .

Anthony

PS: is it alrite not to agree with a champion?

 

[336Robin]

As many of you know I have been working with Pro One for about 4 months and I love the consistency it provides, I have posted numerous videos detailing this.

I am interested in seeing some of the TOI folks posting videos of their success with the system. I have my opinion but I am always open to seeing things in action before passing judgement.

Gerry

Gerry,
My understanding from what CJ says is that TOI isnt an aiming system but a technique. I use it from time to time on certain shots. It keeps balls from running crazy out of position. Im not so comfortable using it all the time but I could see where you could develop a position game around it as apparently some have.

 

[8pack]

Gerry,
My understanding from what CJ says is that TOI isnt an aiming system but a technique. I use it from time to time on certain shots. It keeps balls from running crazy out of position. Im not so comfortable using it all the time but I could see where you could develop a position game around it as apparently some have.

Seems like he has created a shooting method that requires you to learn certain angles off center and edge using deflection.(we need to know all)


Anthony

 

[ENGLISH!]

This may be presumuous, however, when you keep bringing up "swerve" it leads me to believe you are pivoting slightly. You may want to do a drill that I've used with players that are pivoting and can't "feel" it.

If you need to go TOI to the right start off by pivoting left, THEN move parallel over to your TOI right position. This has worked in a few cases and will quickly give you a new sensation of how the TOI is applied. This is another thing I can see right away and help you with, and in writing it may be difficult to understand, so I'm going to describe it TOI to the left also.

If you need to cue TOI to the left, start off pivoting to the right, then move parallel to the left TOI position. This will show you that the shot line is slightly different than what yours is currently. It's merely exaggerating a "non" pivot TOI....to make the necessary changes sometimes it pays to exaggerate. I did this with correcting a distance/stance issue years ago.

This is JUST a drill and I don't recommend doing the TOI normally like this, however, I'm getting the impression it will help you. When you pivot correctly there's no threat of swerve unless you're hitting a "stun" type shot. Remember, it's the feel of the pocket that you're trying to generate, so you have to accentuate the hit of the cue ball.

One thing I could always tell about Keith McCready is how connected he was to hitting the cue ball. He took great pleasure in connecting to the CB and REALLY feeling the sensation. This is how you develop Touch, that's why I shudder when players start talking too technical regarding the TOI because it moves them further away from finding their maximum "Touch". (and the game will not be their teacher)

CJ,

Thanks so much for taking the time & trying to help. I do appreciate it. I know it is very difficult when we can't see exactly what each other is doing & text can confusing at times.

Swerve is a function of a hitting the ball off center & off of the equator of the ball. It is there whenever that is done. However it takes time to come into play. If hit hard enough the CB will contact the OB before swerve can come into play. If hit soft it can all but cancel out the net effect of the 'squirt' & even cross over the oringinal shot line. It is like a mini, mini masse. A pivot vs a parallel move off center does not effect swerve. A pivot vs parallel shift will effect the angle of the squirt relative to the line to the OB.

That is why many people pivot when using english because if bridged at the right spot for the cue the squirt/deflection will be compensated for & the ball will go to the intended target instead of squirting off line. I generally shot my english with either a parallel shift or a combination of a slight front & back hand 'twist' in opposite directions. I am using a pivot for english more than ever since you've brought TOI online. Normally I would just shift parallel to use english or do the combo front & back 'twist' or just come down on the english side.

All that being the case, I do not understand why you have told me for the second time that you think my 'problem' might be that I am pivoting. The swerve issue only comes up when I don't hit a shot firm enongh to keep any swerve from coming into play on the longer shots. I can create enough 'squirt'/deflection to over cut the ball at times. My awareness of swerve is probably why I tend to hit some shots harder than actually would be needed just to make sure that I get the full effect of the 'squirt'/deflection & do not allow any swerve to come into play.

Before TOI I would shoot with english by using the swerve. It allows one to shoot with english softer than what most people do. I was doing what you do with the 3 part pocket but I was using a touch of swerve(TOS). I 'aimed' for the full hit side of the pocket with outside english. If my swerve is correct, for me, the ball goes into the full hit side as I plan so the cue ball hits the OB as full as possible. If I over did it, it goes center or on the thin hit side. Shooting this way is very much about the spin to speed ratio. I am rather good at it & don't see it as difficult as many make it out to be. I was TOSing balls into the pockets & doing the exact opposite with inside spin.

I see TOI as a simple concept. However my background with utilizing spin & swerve for so long may take more time to wash out of my mind. When I am looking at say a long spot type shot, I know I can make it with either outside or inside spin shooting softer that I can than with TOI. I can do this because I am aware of how swerve works. Mike Sigel has said that 'squirt'/deflection does not exist. You know that it does. He probably knows too, but his focus is not on the 'squirt'/deflection but on the spin to speed ratio & the swerve, as I have been doing for so long. Before TOI, I never gave 'squirt'/deflection a thought. A mis from that would be, in my mind, that I hit it too hard with not enough spin. The spin to speed ratio was not enough, it was too samll, I did not spin it enough for the speed that I hit it. Mr. Sigel & I never thought about 'squirt'/deflection. You on the other hand almost always have it in mind as you are 'throwing' the CB out. Mr. Sigel & I were spinning (& swerving) it out.

When I am shooting with TOI, my main focus is to create the correct 'squirt'/deflection with no swerve coming into play. I know that if not hit hard enough some swerve will come into play on those longer shots. That is probably why I am usually over 'floating' position of where I want the CB to stop & am getting some inside spin off of the rail. That may also be why you say to use an extra rail when possible. It allows a firmer, higher speed shot to keep swerve out of the picture.

If I am 'setting' up not pararllel it may be a visual problem more than it is anything else as I fully understand the difference.

I will certainly give your over correction idea a try. I 'real eyes' from my coaching experience how that works & is sometimes the only way to fix a problem.

Thanks again,

Best Regards,

 

[ENGLISH!]

He must not be sure.:smile:

If you go at like he describes two aim points on the ob and one on the cb(maybe 2) something has to change.Shot speed or toi spot to create the rite pocket angle.
(Pro1 vs TOI )while deflecting the ball to create a over cut is very helpful just as long as the pocket line you chose is cloose to the thick side of the pocket.
I have my own thoughts on pivoting (pro1 ) it is as good as your going to get to the rite shot line .

PRO1 trumps toi easily plus Stan dosnt have all them edits.

I watched Steve playing SVB and noticed Steve getting down low to get his visuals.(i think)I tried it last nite and I think you
can actually see the lines better when your lower.Not saying you cant see them from above to me it just seemed clearer the lower you get in the shot.

This is only my opinion .

Anthony

PS: is it alrite not to agree with a champion?

Anthony,

My problem with my 1st. extended attempt with the CTC & CTE TOI was that I know that most times they are not even close to the correct lines & will take considerable & varied amounts of 'squirt'/deflection to get the ball to the pocket from those alignments & the CB is at all of the different distances too. It is difficult to 'feel' all those amounts &...it seems to go against what would be logical, which is to just take the line closer to the pocket & just use a 'touch' of inside. The TOI-1 method just seems better to me. But my mind is still open & I will forge on to 'see' if there is an epiphany.

Regards,

 

[AtLarge]

... If you go at like he describes two aim points on the ob and one on the cb(maybe 2) something has to change.Shot speed or toi spot to create the rite pocket angle. ...

Yes, for TOI2, as I see it, the amount of tip offset from center has to change depending on the degree of cut needed (for a given CB-to-OB distance).

For your first 5 shots with a center-to-center alignment, I imagine the tip offset would be different for each of them -- more and more inside as you go from shot #1 to shot #5 Then when you switch to a center-to-edge alignment for the second 5 shots, you'd be back close to center for shot #6 and then more and more inside as you progress to shot #10.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Yes, for TOI2, as I see it, the amount of tip offset from center has to change depending on the degree of cut needed (for a given CB-to-OB distance).

For your first 5 shots with a center-to-center alignment, I imagine the tip offset would be different for each of them -- more and more inside as you go from shot #1 to shot #5 Then when you switch to a center-to-edge alignment for the second 5 shots, you'd be back close to center for shot #6 and then more and more inside as you progress to shot #10.

And...they would again be different if the cue ball is moved closer or farthar away, and...the speed of the shot might need to be increased if the distance between the cb & ob is such that swerve might come into play.

I just can't see playing off just those two(2) points as being more simple & less complicated & more consistent than some other other methods.

But, I certainly can see 'TOI-1' as being a simple & consistent method. I thing 'TOI-2' would require using CJ's aiming method from his earlier DVD.

It's kind of like a wooden fence with wooden fence posts. One can stand on the fence post (TOI-1) with relative ease but walking out on the the fence boards (TOI-2) requires much more 'balance'.

Right now, I'm standing with one foot on each & don't know if I want to walk out onto the fence boards for fear of falling off.

Regards,

 

[AtLarge]

... I thing 'TOI-2' would require using CJ's aiming method from his earlier DVD. ...

The Ultimate Aiming System from CJ's earlier videos is a fractional-ball aiming method that amounts to an "eighths" method -- more reference points than the "quarters" method.

I would think that it would work fine with TOI1 by using it to initially target the full side of the pocket. Then you would create a slight amount of CB deflection to hit center pocket.

But I think CJ has said he sometimes uses it in conjunction with TOI2 for crosschecking his alignment.

 

[ENGLISH!]

The Ultimate Aiming System from CJ's earlier videos is a fractional-ball aiming method that amounts to an "eighths" method -- more reference points than the "quarters" method.

I would think that it would work fine with TOI1 by using it to initially target the full side of the pocket. Then you would create a slight amount of CB deflection to hit center pocket.

But I think CJ has said he sometimes uses it in conjunction with TOI2 for crosschecking his alignment.

That's the thing. If CJ is using the fractional CB alignments, then it makes more sense. But, if he is truely using Center to Center & Center to Edge then it requires many more options & much more 'feel' for those options.

By 'options' I mean amounts of 'squirt'/deflection & if you get near the full level of deflection the speed would need to be significant to keep swerve from entering the picture on the longer shots. (if not hitting at the equator)

When hitting off center, which I feel is the better way to play, unless one can truely & consistently put the center of a 3mm tip contact patch on the center line of the CB, one is going to get both 'squirt' & spin. CJ has chosen to make the 'squirt' his friend. Guys like Earl, Mike Sigel, & myself have chosen to make spin & swerve our friend.

'TOI-1' pretty much takes swerve out of the picture due to the small amount of tip offset & the firmness of the hit. It makes the 'squirt' your friend while eliminating the enemies (swerve & spin).

IMO as I now understand it, 'TOI-2' which requires more 'squirt' on more shots, brings too many friends to the party & a couple of them bring your old enemies, swerve & spin with them back into the picture where you have to hit them hard to get them out of the picture with your many friends.

Right now I am standing firm on the fence posts(TOI-1) with my other foot just tip toeing on the fence boards(TPI-2).
I really don't know if I want step off the post & onto the boards.

Regrads,

 

[CJ Wiley]

you'll learn from your results if you still with a consistent alignment and pre shot

CJ,

Thanks so much for taking the time & trying to help. I do appreciate it. I know it is very difficult when we can't see exactly what each other is doing & text can confusing at times.

Swerve is a function of a hitting the ball off center & off of the equator of the ball. It is there whenever that is done. However it takes time to come into play. If hit hard enough the CB will contact the OB before swerve can come into play. If hit soft it can all but cancel out the net effect of the 'squirt' & even cross over the oringinal shot line. It is like a mini, mini masse. A pivot vs a parallel move off center does not effect swerve. A pivot vs parallel shift will effect the angle of the squirt relative to the line to the OB.

That is why many people pivot when using english because if bridged at the right spot for the cue the squirt/deflection will be compensated for & the ball will go to the intended target instead of squirting off line. I generally shot my english with either a parallel shift or a combination of a slight front & back hand 'twist' in opposite directions. I am using a pivot for english more than ever since you've brought TOI online. Normally I would just shift parallel to use english or do the combo front & back 'twist' or just come down on the english side.

All that being the case, I do not understand why you have told me for the second time that you think my 'problem' might be that I am pivoting. The swerve issue only comes up when I don't hit a shot firm enongh to keep any swerve from coming into play on the longer shots. I can create enough 'squirt'/deflection to over cut the ball at times. My awareness of swerve is probably why I tend to hit some shots harder than actually would be needed just to make sure that I get the full effect of the 'squirt'/deflection & do not allow any swerve to come into play.

Before TOI I would shoot with english by using the swerve. It allows one to shoot with english softer than what most people do. I was doing what you do with the 3 part pocket but I was using a touch of swerve(TOS). I 'aimed' for the full hit side of the pocket with outside english. If my swerve is correct, for me, the ball goes into the full hit side as I plan so the cue ball hits the OB as full as possible. If I over did it, it goes center or on the thin hit side. Shooting this way is very much about the spin to speed ratio. I am rather good at it & don't see it as difficult as many make is out to be. I was TOSing balls into the pockets & doing the exact opposite with inside spin.

I see TOI as a simple concept. However my background with utilizing spin & swerve for so long may take more time to wash out of my mind. When I am looking at say a long spot type shot, I know I can make it with either outside or inside spin shooting softer that I can than with TOI. I can do this because I am aware of how swerve works. Mike Sigel has said that 'squirt'/deflection does not exist. You know that it does. He probably knows too, but his focus is not on the 'squirt'/deflection but on the spin to speed ratio & the swerve, as I have been doing for so long. Before TOI, I never gave 'squirt'/deflection a thought. A mis from that would be, in my mind, that I hit it too hard with not enough spin. The spin to speed ratio was not enough, it was too samll, I did not spin it enough for the speed that I hit it. Mr. Sigel & I never thought about 'squirt'/deflection. You on the other hand almost always have it in mind as you are 'throwing' the CB out. Mr. Sigel & I were spinning (& swerving) it out.

When I am shooting with TOI, my main focus is to create the correct 'squirt'/deflection with no swerve coming into play. I know that if not hit hard enough some swerve will come into play on those longer shots. That is probably why I am usually over 'floating' position of where I want the CB to stop & am getting some inside spin off of the rail. That may also be why you say to use an extra rail when possible. It allows a firmer, higher speed shot to keep swerve out of the picture.

If I am 'setting' up not pararllel it may be a visual problem more than it is anything else as I fully understand the difference.

I will certainly give your over correction idea a try. I 'real eyes' from my coaching experience how that works & is sometimes the only way to fix a problem.

Thanks again,

Best Regards,

Yes, it sounds like you'll figure it out. I do work with advanced players that can't tell that they're a hair off their alignment, but if you're not undercutting any shots then you're probably fine.

I don't have any issues with "swerve" unless I"m intentionally trying to hit the cue ball lower than usual and spin it. Hitting the cue ball inside with a parallel cue directed at the center of the object ball veers, but doesn't come back the speed I hit it, and again, I use very little spin on any of my regular shots. I don't advocate using much spin, just a "touch".

Play Well, Rick, you'll learn from your results if you still with a consistent alignment and pre shot routine.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Yes, it sounds like you'll figure it out. I do work with advanced players that can't tell that they're a hair off their alignment, but if you're not undercutting any shots then you're probably fine.

I don't have any issues with "swerve" unless I"m intentionally trying to hit the cue ball lower than usual and spin it. Hitting the cue ball inside with a parallel cue directed at the center of the object ball veers, but doesn't come back the speed I hit it, and again, I use very little spin on any of my regular shots. I don't advocate using much spin, just a "touch".

Play Well, Rick, you'll learn from your results if you still with a consistent alignment and pre shot routine.

That could be it a bit too, CJ. I very rarely hit at the equator normally. I'm always above or below it trying to influence the line after contact. I mentioned, in another post, that that might be my next experiment. Staying very near the equator & see what the outcome is. I'll let you know.

Thanks again for all that you're doing. I'm sure that it is appreciated my many, I know that I do.

 

[8pack]

Yes, for TOI2, as I see it, the amount of tip offset from center has to change depending on the degree of cut needed (for a given CB-to-OB distance).

For your first 5 shots with a center-to-center alignment, I imagine the tip offset would be different for each of them -- more and more inside as you go from shot #1 to shot #5 Then when you switch to a center-to-edge alignment for the second 5 shots, you'd be back close to center for shot #6 and then more and more inside as you progress to shot #10.

Talk about over complicating things.

I always look for the simplest way first.


Anthony

 

[Gerry Williams]

Why is it in the aiming section then?

Anyhow - Pro One is the nuts…no question in my mind.

Gerry

Gerry,
My understanding from what CJ says is that TOI isnt an aiming system but a technique. I use it from time to time on certain shots. It keeps balls from running crazy out of position. Im not so comfortable using it all the time but I could see where you could develop a position game around it as apparently some have.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Pro One is the "nutz" I will agree, it's a wonderful aiming system

Why is it in the aiming section then?

Anyhow - Pro One is the nuts…no question in my mind.

Gerry

Pro One is the "nutz" I will agree, one of my students today uses it and uses it well, although I do have some questions on how feedback on misses are calculated. He had some issues that needed to be worked out, however it was related to his body alignment, distance from the cue ball and wrist action which cause him to put a bit of "left spin" on all his shots. He didn't "real eyes" this, so in effect he had been veering the cue ball to the right for years and had a way of unconsciously compensating for it.

TOI isn't an "aiming system" although you you do have to "aim" at the cue ball to create the angles, and a consistent speed is important.
TOI blends all the same factors that a "conventional" playing style does, it's just more organized, with less variables and unnecessary choices involving position and ball pocketing. I will be glad to explain specifically what these factors are if anyone's interested later.

For myself the game of pool was another world when I was a small kid

developing in my small town pool room. The object balls were the "outer world" and the cue ball was my "inner world". I learned how to connect these two "worlds" so that the cue ball was my target and the object balls were something I just connected with in a repeatable way. This way my total focus in on the cue ball and hitting it with extreme accuracy. I can't do this is I"m also focused on hitting a "contact point" (or any "ghost points") on the object ball.

My own game's went up another level showing everyone how to do this in my Banking system video (TIP System) that will be coming out soon. I create ALL the banking angles by aiming only at the cue ball and aligning to the object ball. You will see some banks on this video that many have never seen before and a system that will enable you to make them too. I feel like the next level of TOI does include BANKING and understanding better how you pivot for spin using the touch of inside.

I don't like spinning my regular shots unless I have to, but banks are different, most times you do have to put some spin on banks because there's much more of a "safety element" involved, playing one pocket and taking "free shots" playing 9 Ball/8 Ball.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Words for the wise - don't watch your opponent play

That could be it a bit too, CJ. I very rarely hit at the equator normally. I'm always above or below it trying to influence the line after contact. I mentioned, in another post, that that might be my next experiment. Staying very near the equator & see what the outcome is. I'll let you know.

Thanks again for all that you're doing. I'm sure that it is appreciated my many, I know that I do.

I generally am a tip below center with a slight angle to my cue as well. The reason no one can understand the TOI unless they experience it has a lot to do with not being able to imagine hitting the cue ball inside without spinning it much more than a "center ball" hit. Many of my TOI shots just have enough spin that if I hit the cue ball straight up table it would come back just an inch or two to either side of my tip. I do this by only following through as much as I draw the cue ball on each shot as a rule.

Extending your follow through is a VERY BAD habit because it exaggerates spin and deflection. I see more people miss informed about follow through than most other miss information combined. The most accurate stroke doesn't need much of a follow through at all, sometimes the extended follow through we pros use is for "show," and may even be intentionally miss leading (imagine that)

Words for the wise - don't watch your opponent play, especially if they're better players, just watch the cue ball, their body motions may be "miss" leading.