Pro One vs TOI
- Thread starter Gerry Williams
- Start date
give ourselves the maximum margin of error by choosing the best path to the next....
That's a good point, sometimes I refer to both and I should refer to the mental state as "dead stroke," is that term understood by most players?
Sometimes I use "Road Player" slang without "real eyesing" it.
So maybe I should explain "position zones" in another way, using an analogy about approaches and zones as they apply to us mentally (using visualization).
The key to what I teach is maximizing your approaches (zones) to the pocket and also playing position. This isn't done in straight lines, it's done by using " approach pockets" or "zones". The 3 Part Pocket System is an example of the pocket zone and position zones are similar, but established on the table using the diamonds as the reference points.
It's difficult to imagine stopping a ball on the flat surface of a pool table, so there's ways to achieve this, by changing the "thought process". This is done by analogy, which is a powerful tool to use to make mental adjustments.
I use the analogy of backing down a long, narrow drive way and, if you watch the drive way it's difficult to drive straight, however, if you pick a solid point, say a telephone pole or tree on a line straight PAST the drive way you can back up with ease and little thought because you're going towards a solid "point" (target). This overcomes the difficulty of trying to visualize stopping a "rolling cue ball" on a slick, flat surface (the table).
This is what I'm point out when I "beat the ghost" playing rotation on {the video} my web site. This is valuable information and the key to understanding the theme of how we play position to give ourselves the maximum margin of error by choosing the best path to the next shot.
That's a good point, sometimes I refer to both and I should refer to the mental state as "dead stroke," is that term understood by most players?
Sometimes I use "Road Player" slang without "real eyesing" it.
So maybe I should explain "position zones" in another way, using an analogy about approaches and zones as they apply to us mentally (using visualization). The key to what I teach is maximizing your approaches (zones) to the pocket and also playing position. This isn't done in straight lines, it's done by using " approach pockets" or "zones". The 3 Part Pocket System is an example of the pocket zone and position zones are similar, but established on the table using the diamonds as the reference points.
It's difficult to imagine stopping a ball on the flat surface of a pool table, so there's ways to achieve this, by changing the "thought process". This is done by analogy, which is a powerful tool to use to make mental adjustments.
I use the analogy of backing down a long, narrow drive way and, if you watch the drive way it's difficult to drive straight, however, if you pick a solid point, say a telephone pole or tree on a line straight PAST the drive way you can back up with ease and little thought because you're going towards a solid "point" (target). This overcomes the difficulty of trying to visualize stopping a "rolling cue ball" on a slick, flat surface (the table).
This is what I'm point out when I "beat the ghost" playing rotation on {the video} my web site. This is valuable information and the key to understanding the theme of how we play position to give ourselves the maximum margin of error by choosing the best path to the next shot.
CJ,
You are a master artist.
You 'finally' painted a masterpiece in my mind. I see the light. The circuit board is burning up. The light has come on.
That all happened before I went to the hall today. But once I got there...
I only have three(3) words... I love it!
I never thought I'd say this, but...I love leading with my 'butt' end.
TOI done 'correctly' IS the 'nutz'.
I only spent about two hours with it, so obviuosly I have not perfected it but I have made a huge 'jump'.
I 'real eyes' the 'connections' & they are more than what most would think.
I have already started on what I think wll be an amazing 'TIP' phenomenom on my own.
The connections are amazing.
What I also really like is that outside english has a connection too.
CJ, thanks for sticking with me & not giving up on me. I once played QB on a pick up team were a guy could not catch a cold to save his life. He was picked last by no other choice. But I kept throwing him the ball when ever there were no other options. The other team stopped covering him but I never gave up on him. He wound up catching one ball for the game winning TD. Thanks.
The Table is the Teacher. The Game is the Teacher. And... You are the Teacher.
Thanks So Much & Best Wishes & Best Regards,
PS I doubt that I will need the 'TIP' DVD but I will probably get it anyway. I have 4 grown 'children' that would rather learn from a DVD than Dad.
Did I say Thanks So Much?
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oops, posted in the wrong forum
the back hand moves a split second before you move the tip to create the correct TOI
He's talking about the movement to the TOI position. You want to cue everything a "Touch" inside, however, some players need to key on moving their BACK HAND to make the PARALLEL SHIFT TO TOI.
I consider it a "Parallel Shift," however the back hand moves a split second before you move the tip to create the correct TOI Position. If the tip moves first it's called a "Pivot" and it won't work correctly and you'll undercut your shots.
I urge players to calibrate the shot patterns so they over cut slightly into the center of the pocket, and you MUST make the TOI SHIFT correctly to do this. It's just a "Hair" of a difference, and pool has so little margin of error it MUST be done with the utmost care.
I hope this helps, I've explained if many different ways, and this one seems to have hit the point with "English," and I hope it helps you too. The TOI is an easy system and VERY POWERFUL, and it must be done correctly to be effective.
TOI took me a couple of months to perfect, so be patient with yourself, I'll keep answering questions in as many ways as it takes for everyone to understand and be able to enjoy the TOI Technique. It does truly make pool many times more fun, I've said it and heard it many times recently. :thumbup:
He's talking about the movement to the TOI position. You want to cue everything a "Touch" inside, however, some players need to key on moving their BACK HAND to make the PARALLEL SHIFT TO TOI.
I consider it a "Parallel Shift," however the back hand moves a split second before you move the tip to create the correct TOI Position. If the tip moves first it's called a "Pivot" and it won't work correctly and you'll undercut your shots.
I urge players to calibrate the shot patterns so they over cut slightly into the center of the pocket, and you MUST make the TOI SHIFT correctly to do this. It's just a "Hair" of a difference, and pool has so little margin of error it MUST be done with the utmost care.
I hope this helps, I've explained if many different ways, and this one seems to have hit the point with "English," and I hope it helps you too. The TOI is an easy system and VERY POWERFUL, and it must be done correctly to be effective.
TOI took me a couple of months to perfect, so be patient with yourself, I'll keep answering questions in as many ways as it takes for everyone to understand and be able to enjoy the TOI Technique. It does truly make pool many times more fun, I've said it and heard it many times recently. :thumbup:
Thank you very much for your post mr Wiley, and yes you are right on almost my shots I am not parallel to CTC or CTE so I will keep practicing anyway until I get ti.
bear7,
Just to be clear since I perceive a bit of a language issue.
Say you are cutting a ball to the left based on the CTC or CTE alignment, what CJ has suggested is that the butt/back hand move a bit to the left & then followed by the the tip moving the touch to the left. This is to prevent the back hand moving to the right as the tip is moved to the inside left.
I hope this makes it clear.
Regards,
Just to be clear since I perceive a bit of a language issue.
Say you are cutting a ball to the left based on the CTC or CTE alignment, what CJ has suggested is that the butt/back hand move a bit to the left & then followed by the the tip moving the touch to the left. This is to prevent the back hand moving to the right as the tip is moved to the inside left.
I hope this makes it clear.
Regards,
Yes ENGLISH I´m starting understand it, so I will practice that. and again sorry for my english because my native language is spanish. but I trying my best to communicate, hope this not bother the az forum members.
Eduardo.
besr7,
Believe me, you would not want to see me try to type something in Spanish. You are doing fine. I just wanted to make sure that things were clear if I could.
Regards & Good Luck with It,
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:thumbup: Thank you very much ENGLISH I really appreciate your time and effort to help me and to understand me. I will inform you about my practice tomorrow.
CJ -- I think a couple of times now you have said that the final, shifted cue stick position is not actually parallel to the ctc or cte line but, instead, it's angled slightly toward OB center or OB edge.
I know you talk about not really "aiming" at anything other than the precise spot on the CB that you want to hit, but given the angling of the stick (rather than a parallel shift), what do you feel about the following TOI approach -- actually point the center of the stick at the center of the OB (for thicker shots) or at the outside edge of the OB (for thinner shots) while offsetting the stick to the inside.
This would result in the back end of the stick being a bit farther from the ctc or cte line than the front of the stick (as you recommend). If this is different from your shift, it must be only a very slight difference in the angle of the stick. I would think that actually pointing the stick at the center or edge of the OB would make for consistency in set-up. It's essentially "aiming" the stick at the center or edge of the OB, but with the stick offset to the inside enough to create the angle (by CB deflection) needed to pocket the shot. But I don't know whether the degree of feel you'd have to develop to play this way would be more or less than your way (if they are a bit different). Perhaps this way just angles the stick a bit too much, but I'm not sure.
What do you think?
at the highest level the cue ball actually does what the player thinks - indeed.....
I think that's very logical and basically if I"m moving TOI and still "aware" of the object ball's center then I'm doing what you're saying. I am hesitant about making any declarations of this because it will interfere in the ultimate outcome, and that's to increase the player's touch and "feel for the pocket." This is where "logic" and "creativity" oppose each other paradoxically.
As you said before it seems that I"m talking about two different TOI's because how can I "align" or "line up" CTC and then "aim" to the inside of the pocket, AND calibrate it to hit center. This is a very good observation, and if I spent time with you personally I could explain and demonstrate this process. It's more complicated than you may "real eyes". :wink:
The limitations I'm dealing with is trying to explain a "touch/feel enhancing system" in writing. This is very challenging for me, not only because of the technical difficulty, also because of the variances in how different players comprehend the material. Like with "English," I have explained the parallel shift in many ways, and since "back hand" english has been a big part of his game, he relates to the back hand analogy for the shift as well.
I am aware of the complete cue, so my emphasis is not on the front hand or back hand, it's simply shifted TOI. I designed a drill for some of my recent students that were having trouble with this by exaggerating the shift - pivoting the opposite direction FIRST, then moving parallel to the TOI spot. I've found when trying to break someones programmed habits it's often useful to exaggerate the change. The paradox is there's no straight lines when you're deflecting the cue ball, that's why the feel is enhanced.
When players start doing it correctly it FEELS right, and that's ultimately important. We must match our visual experience with our sense of feel. This is also part of the calibration process I use to develop someone's "feel for the pocket".
The champion players have developed this in a variety of ways, and to teach how to incorporate it for ourselves is unusual because we often have no referential index to compare.
So in conclusion, you're correct, however, it's still not an exact science because of the individual's "visual feel" for the shot.
Another issue that I should include is when using TOI you are NOT trying to hit where you're aiming. You are aligning inside the pocket and cutting the ball into the center. This is where I emphasize the "FEEL/TOUCH" part of the game, and this is "the difference that makes the difference" if a players stays intermediate/advanced or jumps up to the Pro Caliber level.
There's more, I'll save for later - remember at the highest level the cue ball actually does what the player thinks....this is tricky to teach.
'The Game is the Teacher'
I think that's very logical and basically if I"m moving TOI and still "aware" of the object ball's center then I'm doing what you're saying. I am hesitant about making any declarations of this because it will interfere in the ultimate outcome, and that's to increase the player's touch and "feel for the pocket." This is where "logic" and "creativity" oppose each other paradoxically.
As you said before it seems that I"m talking about two different TOI's because how can I "align" or "line up" CTC and then "aim" to the inside of the pocket, AND calibrate it to hit center. This is a very good observation, and if I spent time with you personally I could explain and demonstrate this process. It's more complicated than you may "real eyes". :wink:
The limitations I'm dealing with is trying to explain a "touch/feel enhancing system" in writing. This is very challenging for me, not only because of the technical difficulty, also because of the variances in how different players comprehend the material. Like with "English," I have explained the parallel shift in many ways, and since "back hand" english has been a big part of his game, he relates to the back hand analogy for the shift as well.
I am aware of the complete cue, so my emphasis is not on the front hand or back hand, it's simply shifted TOI. I designed a drill for some of my recent students that were having trouble with this by exaggerating the shift - pivoting the opposite direction FIRST, then moving parallel to the TOI spot. I've found when trying to break someones programmed habits it's often useful to exaggerate the change. The paradox is there's no straight lines when you're deflecting the cue ball, that's why the feel is enhanced.
When players start doing it correctly it FEELS right, and that's ultimately important. We must match our visual experience with our sense of feel. This is also part of the calibration process I use to develop someone's "feel for the pocket".
The champion players have developed this in a variety of ways, and to teach how to incorporate it for ourselves is unusual because we often have no referential index to compare.
So in conclusion, you're correct, however, it's still not an exact science because of the individual's "visual feel" for the shot.
Another issue that I should include is when using TOI you are NOT trying to hit where you're aiming. You are aligning inside the pocket and cutting the ball into the center. This is where I emphasize the "FEEL/TOUCH" part of the game, and this is "the difference that makes the difference" if a players stays intermediate/advanced or jumps up to the Pro Caliber level.
There's more, I'll save for later - remember at the highest level the cue ball actually does what the player thinks....this is tricky to teach.
'The Game is the Teacher'
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I know you were asking CJ & he has given you his answer.
AtLarge,
I think the problem is the word 'parallel'. I have been shooting with an offset tip for 45 years. I have used BHE, FHE, combo B&FHE where they go in opposite direstions & 'parallel' more than any 2 of them combined. I have used outside & inside english all during that time as well.,
When shooting with english & hitting off center, my focus is on the shoulder of the tip that will be contacting the ball, but my cue line focus naturally is the center line of the shaft.
I am fairly sure that my cue line was 'parallel' to the CTC & CTE lines. I could not develope any cosistency that way as you know all of the variations required to determine the proper CB 'squirt' for all of the different cut angles & distances. CJ sumised that perhaps my cue was angled away to the outside as the result of a pivot. He suggested that I try the over correction as he outlined in his answer to to you. Basically pivot outside & then move 'back' 'parallel' to the inside. I tried that with no real better results because I was going back to "parallel" inside to the CTC & CTE lines.
I don't think that is exactly what CJ intended. I had come to the conclusion that 'parallel' alignment simply might not work for me. After giving it some thought & thinging about some of the other things that CJ has said regarding stroking through the center of the ball. I 'real eyesed' that that can't really be done with a 'true parallel' cue but it can be done if the cue is angle back slightly toward center. CJ's last suggestion about moving the back hand inside first & then the tip resulted in a visual of what I just described.
Keep in mind that the cue is basically conical in shape with a taper form the larger butt to the smaller tip. I guessed that CJ is so inside oriented that his perception of the cue might be the inside line of the cue as opposed to my center line of the cue. My visual perception. if one keeps the 'eye' in place, is that the shaft line near the center of the ball is more 'parallel' than the side away from center. So, I shot the shot with this orientation of the shaft & the balls just started hitting the back of the pockets with great consistency.
I'm not sure but I think in CJ's opposite pivot over correction suggestion I think it would be better to say to then slide laterally over to the inside tip placement instead or 'parallel'. I think the word 'parallel' could be causing a problem from time to time with some of us individuals. Also I think CJ speaks of what I would almost call minute amounts while some of us move in larger increments.
I was thinking last night about arriving at the correct TOI position more as you suggest without the two(2) part process that is now working for me. That willl be my next experiment, but I will drop it as soon as it does not work, as I certainly do not want to lose what I came upon the other day.
I hope some of this helps or gives you more food for thought.
Regards,
Rick
Well, I went to the pool club today and I did not have lucky with the TOI system, I Know the system works but I don´t know what I ám doing wrong. perhaps a video could help the experts to judge my work so I will try it tomorrow.
Eduardo.
Eduardo,
Sorry to hear that. It does work when done correctly. Keep in mind that I have been playing for 46 years it took me awhile to get the CTC & CTE TOI right.
Next time you go, set up a half ball shot to mis a corner pocket to the full hit side of the pocket. Then line it up center of CB to edge of OB & then move the back hand to the inside just a bit followed by the a front hand slide just a bit to the inside & then stroke along that line. You don't even have to look at the OB. But if you want to just stroke along that linewhile looking at the edge of the OB.
Maybe a video might allow CJ to see something.
Good Luck with it.
Regards,