Pro One

[dr_dave]

I was hoping for a review, because your point of view has always been the most neutral one.
Does the DVD answer all the questions you've had?

The biggest question I have had is:

Could somebody please document and demonstrate an "official version" of CTE, explaining how it is used in enough detail so people could easily explain how and why it works for a larger range of shots of different cut angles, CB-OB distances, and bridge lengths?​

I applaud Stan for doing a great job of explaining the basics and showing many shot examples for his version of CTE, which I assume will become the generally-recognized "official version."

However, to be honest, I don't think the DVD directly addresses the entire question above.

Regardless, for somebody who wants to try CTE out, the DVD does offer some guidance and lots of examples to try at the table. This is certainly useful to people who want to try it out.

What's the difference between Pro One and CTE?

In my view, "Pro One" is not so much an "aiming system" as it is an "ability" that one develops through lots of practice with CTE, where bridge hand placement and accurate center-ball alignment come naturally without a mechanical, fixed-bridge pivot.

Regards,
Dave

 

[BRKNRUN]

Dr. Dave,

What I had hoped you would do was not right off the bat start giving all the reasons why you "think" Pro One should not or will not work. This is a somewhat negative approach.

On a more positive note it might be better to just try to follow Stan's instructions on the DVD as best you can and see if you start making shots.

That's what many of us have done and it does work for me. I am making more shots than ever before so for me I really don't care why it should not work since it is indeed working for me. You should at least just try it and see if it works for you without any preconceived notions of why it should not work.

This seems to me to be a fair way to start your research on Pro One.

Thank you for your consideration.

I think it is a mistake to call Dr. Dave "negative"

I look at it from this perspective.....Some people go to the Doctor and say..."I am sick and want to be better"....The Dr. says...."take this pill" and you will feel better...

The person takes the pill and usually feels better with out knowing "why"

The Dr. (on the other hand) nees/wants to know "why" is that pill making this person feel better....How exactly is that pill interacting with that persons body to make them feel better.

Granted Dave may not be a "medical" doctor....but I think I fits his persona all the same.

Thus...his nick of "Dr. Dave":wink:

 

[dr_dave]

Dave may not be a "medical" doctor

You are correct; although, I have been known to stay at Holiday Inn Express. :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave

PS: BTW, for those that don't know, my "Dr. Dave" title comes from the fact that I have a PhD ("doctorate") in Mechanical Engineering.

 

[mantis99]

The biggest question I have had is:

Could somebody please document and demonstrate an "official version" of CTE, explaining how it is used in enough detail so people could easily explain how and why it works for a larger range of shots of different cut angles, CB-OB distances, and bridge lengths?​

I applaud Stan for doing a great job of explaining the basics and showing many shot examples for his version of CTE, which I assume will become the generally-recognized "official version."

However, to be honest, I don't think the DVD directly addresses the entire question above.

Regardless, for somebody who wants to try CTE out, the DVD does offer some guidance and lots of examples to try at the table. This is certainly useful to people who want to try it out.

In my view, "Pro One" is not so much an "aiming system" as it is an "ability" that one develops through lots of practice with CTE, where bridge hand placement and accurate center-ball alignment come naturally without a mechanical, fixed-bridge pivot.

Regards,
Dave

While I am excited to work on CTE and Pro one as a whole, I have to admit that my initial viewings of the DVD left me with similar questions as Dr. Dave. Fairly broad guidelines for when to use what alignment are not really given, and instead stated as something that should be learned from experience if I am understanding things correctly. Also, while sighting CTE seems very simple, sighting CTE and CB edge to OB quarter has been difficult at best, and seems like it should not work. Their is a lot of info as a whole, and I am sure I have missed some stuff the first time or so through. Maybe someone can give me an idea of what works for them in sighting those lines and moving into them.

 

[JoeyA]

Joey A, thanks for trying to help, when you say (When you align you body standing upright with Center To Edge (center of cue ball to edge of Object ball), simultaneously move very slightly with your eyes so that you can see the edge of the cue ball LINING up with the correct A, B or C aim point. ) Say it looks to me like point C, do I pivot the tip to this point? I keep waiting for that light to go off in my head, but I think the electricity is off. lol

No, you will either pivot from the left side of the cue ball to the center of the cue ball OR you will pivot from the right side of the cue ball to the center of the cue ball. In essence, you will be shooting a center ball shot on most shots. I don't use that much side spin but the side spin I use is BHE.

I am afraid that I cannot help everyone with their problems in understanding Pro One CTE. If you pass through town, I will be happy to show you what I have come to know.

IN summary, you ALWAYS pivot to the center of the cue ball and when you reach the center of the cue ball you should be dead on the shot. If it looks like you are going to slightly miss the shot, perhaps you are pivoting from the wrong side or possibly you have chosen the wrong aiming coordinates.

I didn't think so many people would have trouble learning this from the video by IRock, you are not alone.

I think someone should consider giving classes on CTE/Pro One. I learned it from Stan and I can use it on every shot. There are exceptions to the basic Pro One CTE but that was covered in Stan's class.

Good luck with getting it. I believe that if you stick with it, you will get it. It's not that hard. I know some of you must be saying, "sure, it's not that hard" with disbelief but I genuinely believe it is not that complicated and it is easy to do consistently well. Hang in there.

JoeyA

 

[JoeyA]

I think Stan has offered to help anyone who has purchased the DVD's while he is at DCC, FWIW.

 

[JB Cases]

What still isn't clear after my first viewing is how you select the object ball alignment point based on the the particular shot at hand based on the amount of cut needed, CB-OB distance, and even bridge length. The video shows lots of shot examples and says what to do for those specific shots, but it doesn't seem to provide guidance as to how to figure it out on your own for any shot at the table, with a given cut angle, CB-OB distance, and bridge length. The video seems to imply that you figure it out through lots of practice and experience, which is fine ... that's how most people learn to aim anyway.

When there is a fixed-bridge pivot (even a small one) with a fixed initial alignment, the resulting cut angle depends on both bridge length and CB-OB distance (see my CTE resource page for more info). I know Stan covers some special cases, but all of this stuff varies continuously as the cut angle, shot distance, and bridge length change, so adjustments are necessary relative to the fixed references and special cases. I don't think there is anything wrong with this, but it doesn't seem to be acknowledged in the video (or in any discussion of CTE I've seen).

Respectfully,
Dave

No, people learn to aim by practice AND instruction.

I think that you would (or should) agree that having some sort of guidance is better than none at all.

That's why things like Ghost Ball exist. Someone made it up to help people get to the shot line quicker than pure trial and error.

I am speaking PURELY for myself here and not addressing the CONTENT of the video.

I DO NOT think about bridge distance or pivot amount when shooting. I follow the steps and my cue gets to the shot line and I shoot.

YOU are complicating this method by introducing variables that do not need to to be thought about when using it.

I am sorry Dave but in my opinion you need to act like a pool player and just take it to the table and work with it until you are comfortable. If you turn on your 'ghost ball must verify' mode then you will end up frustrated.

I swear on a stack of textbooks that if you just work with it you will see aiming in a way you can't grasp yet. At least that's how I feel about it.

 

[JB Cases]

The biggest question I have had is:

Could somebody please document and demonstrate an "official version" of CTE, explaining how it is used in enough detail so people could easily explain how and why it works for a larger range of shots of different cut angles, CB-OB distances, and bridge lengths?​

I applaud Stan for doing a great job of explaining the basics and showing many shot examples for his version of CTE, which I assume will become the generally-recognized "official version."

However, to be honest, I don't think the DVD directly addresses the entire question above.

Regardless, for somebody who wants to try CTE out, the DVD does offer some guidance and lots of examples to try at the table. This is certainly useful to people who want to try it out.

In my view, "Pro One" is not so much an "aiming system" as it is an "ability" that one develops through lots of practice with CTE, where bridge hand placement and accurate center-ball alignment come naturally without a mechanical, fixed-bridge pivot.

Regards,
Dave

It might not address your question because your question contains parameters that are not necessary for the use of the system.

You now have an "official" version of CTE to analyze. There is no way on Earth that you have done so sufficiently at this point.

I say this because you have put WAY more effort into documenting and explaining how a ball rebounds from the cushion.

In my view, "Pro One" is not so much an "aiming system" as it is an "ability" that one develops through lots of practice with CTE, where bridge hand placement and accurate center-ball alignment come naturally without a mechanical, fixed-bridge pivot.

So the systematic approach wherin one always starts with center to edge sighting for every shot does not matter to you?

ProOne (modified CTE) IS the system. The ability which one develops through it's use is to be able to quickly find the shot line with a repeatable consistent approach that eliminates guessing.

The amount of practice one needs to feel comfortable, especially after a lifelong habit of using Ghost Ball or pure feel, varies by individual and by their experience with other similar systems.

I used Hal's quarters system since 2002. When CTE became the next one I didn't even pay attention at first just as I didn't pay attention to Hal's systems the first time around.

I thought I knew all I needed to know and nothing "new" about aiming was going to help my game.

So anyway a while back I decided to try and learn CTE. I too was confused about "the pivot" and bridge hand placement. And frankly your article about having to worry about them is one of the things that KEPT me from trying CTE. Believe it or not I did respect your view because I respect your other work. It was me who pushed for us to start selling your book and dvd.

So when I finally did get into CTE and after having read your so-called CTE resource page, I was confused. The only thing I knew for sure is that Hal did once introduce me to a new way to aim that made my game go up several balls and challenged my perception of the "right" way to aim.

Here we are a year later and Stan has a put out a video banking his reputation on his ability to teach CTE.

I say to everyone, Hal Houle worked a good part of his life figuring this stuff out. He gave it away for free in person to whomever would call or visit.

Stan and others have spent a good part of their time learning how to teach this information. It's not an easy task for a person to put anything on video much less a controversial non-standard aiming system. So give it time and work through the information.

YOU ALL know that it works. There are too many people who testify to that for you to be secure that it works.

If I can offer you an analogy it would be from my laser engraver. This is a machine that can do a lot of great things. However it's a machine that is relative simple to operate but quite fussy if certain things are not done in just the right way.

On the laser engravers forum it very often happens that a new laser owner will comoplain bitterly that the machine they just bought is a pile of junk because it won't do what they want it to. They say they read the manual and watched the videos and and and......then along comes some veteran and says, "did you remember to do this, it's on page 47 at the bottom", and the newbie will say "doh, I must have skipped over that part."

 

[JB Cases]

The effective use of backhand english to compensate for squirt requires a bridge length equal to the cue's natural pivot length.

For manual CTE, Stan recommends a bridge length that varies according to the distance between the CB and OB. If the two balls are "extremely close," then the bridge distance is supposed to be "very short." For other shots, the recommended bridge distance varies from about 5" to 9" depending on how far the two balls are separated.

The varying bridge distances needed for Stan's CTE are inconsistent with the need to bridge at the cue's natural pivot length for the effective use of BHE. In fact, for a particular cue, it may be that none of the recommended bridge distances correspond with the cue's natural pivot length.

A potential solution to this dilemma is to use Stan's recommended bridge lengths to get the cue to its final aiming line, and then reposition the bridge to the cue's natural pivot length before applying BHE. This, obviously, would introduce another step to the procedure.

Edit: Note that with Pro One, the cue is brought directly onto the final line of aim -- so it is possible to bridge directly at the cue's natural pivot point while using Pro One.

I just want to make a comment that I personally do not use the cue's pivot length with BHE.

I posted a video on my youtube channel where I dispelled the notion that one has to use a bridge length equal to the pivot length. On this video I use BHE with bridge lengths from as close as a few inches to half a table with the bridge on the rail.

Here is is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNrpN3V15fY - titles Backhand English Bridge Length Demo

The shot is a straight shot to the corner. The balls are about 10" apart. The only thing that varies is my bridge distance from the cue ball. I am imparting side spin on every shot.

I don't know where the notion that Back Hand English ONLY works with a specific bridge distance comes from.

There are so many other variables present that saying a cue has a specific and unchanging pivot point is not accurate in my view. Tip density, grip pressure, where the back hand is, speed of the shot, cloth friction and humidity are all factors which play into what happens on a shot. And if you believe Predator's marketing then every cue with a single piece shaft has radially inconsistent deflection meaning that there cannot be a single pivot point which stays constant at all cue rotations.

Pivot points do exist and they are real. But in my opinion when playing pool bridge distances are variable based on what's needed for the shot and these vary from player to player depending on their own sense of what to do AND their ability to do it.

There is no one-size fits all formula for applying spin to the cue ball or for bridge distance or for aiming. There are guidelines that each player can use as a frame to go off of but at the end of the day the player gets down on the shot according to how comfortable and confident they feel about it.

I use CTE with BHE and I don't worry about bridge distances or pivot points. It's my earnest suggestion to all the readers that they attempt to learn to use CTE/Pro One without paying a lot of attention to them either - except as taught by Stan for whatever reason he is teaching it. I firmly believe that once the player is using CTE smoothly that the player stops thinking about bridge distances and just falls into the shot with a motion that is very natural in both feeling and appearance.

 

[Mikjary]

I am definately not understanding Pro1 yet, even though some of my friends here on AZ are kind enough to try and help me with it. On the video when he says the outside of the QB is lined up with A or C, how can that be possible, when the center of the CB is lined up with the edge of the OB doesn't the outside edge of the QB have to be in line with A, since the balls are the same size. Are A, B, and C aiming points, or just aligning points? In the demonstrations, Stevie and Brandon look like they are manually pivoting, but said they are using Pro1 pivots. It took me a while to grasp Perfect Aim, so it may take a while, but I will get it.

irock,

You should definitely work with Stan's Cte for a while before you move on to Pro One. You need to have the alignment points and pivoting down with manual Cte to really get the Pro One pivots. With practice your ability to recognize which pivot direction to use will become second nature.

The A, B, and C alignment points are not aiming points like in fractional aiming. Stan covers this in the dvd. They are visual reference points used with the CTE line to setup your aiming alignment for the shot. After you achieve this setup, you just pivot left or right.

Visually aligning the center to edge line and A,B, and C points allows your body to set up correctly for the shot. You are lined up and now finish the method with the pivot. No contact/aiming points are needed.

A help with the Pro One pivoting is to understand that the right pivot moves your eyes to the right of the center to edge line and vice versa. You are using this movement to replace the mechanical pivot.

Best,
Mike

 

[rayjay]

I just want to applaud Mr. Shuffet for acknowledging, at the end of the video, that CTE/Pro One is "just an aiming system", which is "just a part of the much larger game of pool". There are many, many more aspects to the game than the aiming system and I appreciate Stan for including this acknowledgment. Personally, for me, "systems" do not appeal to me, and haven't ever since I worked as a draftsman for civil engineers while I was an undergraduate art/philosophy major in college many years ago, and gained this self-awareness. Most engineers I know think in a different language than I do, but are perfectly capable of creating "art" in their own way. JMO. I am personally more attracted to the senses (sensuality) of the game, the instincts/feel, and aesthetics, beauty and grace of the game, than I am to the more mechanical systems, whether they are for aiming, kicking or banking or any other part of pool. If this CTE/Pro One aiming system helps anybody, which it obviously does, then my thanks and appreciations are for the contributions to the game to further spread the enjoyability of the game to more people. Enjoy!

 

[AtLarge]

... I posted a video on my youtube channel where I dispelled the notion that one has to use a bridge length equal to the pivot length. On this video I use BHE with bridge lengths from as close as a few inches to half a table with the bridge on the rail.

Here is is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNrpN3V15fY - titles Backhand English Bridge Length Demo

The shot is a straight shot to the corner. The balls are about 10" apart. The only thing that varies is my bridge distance from the cue ball. I am imparting side spin on every shot. ...

John, your video does not, at all, make your case.

In the first place, you have positioned the CB close to the OB (about 10" you say) and the OB fairly close to the corner pocket. So the CB has only 10" to squirt before it hits the OB, and the shot has a significant margin of error since the OB has only a short distance to travel and it looks to be straight out from the center of the pocket. If you were to position the two balls quite a bit farther apart, and the OB at a good distance from the pocket, you would get quite different results.

Now, even with your "biased" positioning of the two balls, it is possible to see how the CB is squirting by observing what happens to it after the collision:

• For shots hit with a relatively normal bridge length (the 10-ball, the 3-ball, and the 7-ball, for example), the CB remains pretty much on the line to the pocket after it hits the OB. For these shots, the BHE is compensating quite well for the squirt, and the CB is moving straight toward the center of the OB. I'd say the natural pivot point for the cue you were using is somewhere in the range of the bridge lengths you used for those shots.
• For shots hit with quite a short bridge length (8-ball, 5-ball, 6-ball), the CB moves to the left after hitting the OB. So the CB is hitting the OB to the left of the OB's center. Since you are using left english on all the shots, this means the BHE is actually over-compensating for the squirt. This is caused by using a bridge length that is shorter than the cue's natural pivot length.
• For shots hit with quite a long bridge length (9-ball, 4-ball, 1-ball), the CB moves to the right after hitting the OB. That is, you are using left english and the CB is hitting the OB to the right of the OB's center. The BHE is under-compensating for the squirt, because your bridge length is longer than the natural pivot length of the cue.

I use CTE with BHE and I don't worry about bridge distances or pivot points. It's my earnest suggestion to all the readers that they attempt to learn to use CTE/Pro One without paying a lot of attention to them either - except as taught by Stan for whatever reason he is teaching it. I firmly believe that once the player is using CTE smoothly that the player stops thinking about bridge distances and just falls into the shot with a motion that is very natural in both feeling and appearance.

The reason Stan mentions bridge length is because it does matter if you are trying to perform manual, on-the-table pivoting with CTE. A bridge length of 3", obviously, will produce a different final aiming line from a bridge length of 18" (assuming the bridge hand is placed on the same line in each case and the pivot is around the bridge). The use of just a half-tip pivot in Stan's version of CTE serves to minimize the bridge length effect, but it is still there.

My post #91 was merely pointing out that these varying bridge lengths with manual CTE present an additional complication to resolve when using BHE with CTE. With Pro One, there is no on-the-table pivoting, so the stick can be bridged at a point that works with BHE. John, I believe I remember that your current version of CTE does not have an on-the-table pivot (i.e., it's more like Pro One), so that may explain why BHE is working well for you with what you do.

I hope you receive your DVD soon, as I look forward to your comments on CTE/Pro One after you have actually viewed the DVD.

 

[gunzby]

irock,

You should definitely work with Stan's Cte for a while before you move on to Pro One. You need to have the alignment points and pivoting down with manual Cte to really get the Pro One pivots. With practice your ability to recognize which pivot direction to use will become second nature.

The A, B, and C alignment points are not aiming points like in fractional aiming. Stan covers this in the dvd. They are visual reference points used with the CTE line to setup your aiming alignment for the shot. After you achieve this setup, you just pivot left or right.

Visually aligning the center to edge line and A,B, and C points allows your body to set up correctly for the shot. You are lined up and now finish the method with the pivot. No contact/aiming points are needed.

A help with the Pro One pivoting is to understand that the right pivot moves your eyes to the right of the center to edge line and vice versa. You are using this movement to replace the mechanical pivot.

Best,
Mike

I totally agree Mike. I am going to put my efforts into first getting very comfortable with cte (until it becomes second nature) before I move onto Pro 1. Even studying the video I will still go to an instructor to finish it all up just to make sure.

 

[JB Cases]

John, your video does not, at all, make your case.

I think it does.

In the first place, you have positioned the CB close to the OB (about 10" you say) and the OB fairly close to the corner pocket. So the CB has only 10" to squirt before it hits the OB, and the shot has a significant margin of error since the OB has only a short distance to travel and it looks to be straight out from the center of the pocket. If you were to position the two balls quite a bit farther apart, and the OB at a good distance from the pocket, you would get quite different results.

How do you know that I didn't already try this with different shots at different distances? The reason I chose this particular set up is not because it is the best to make my point, I chose this set up because it was the best way to get it on camera when I made the video. The object ball was on the spot and the cueball about ten inches behind it.

I chose this setup so I wouldn't have to stretch out over the table.

This wasn't any premeditated thing where I practiced a whole bunch of different setups in order to find the one that proved my point. This was a spur of the moment at the pool room thing which I did about an hour after having a discussion about bridge lengths on AZ.

Now, even with your "biased" positioning of the two balls, it is possible to see how the CB is squirting by observing what happens to it after the collision:

I think you should not consider anything about this video to be biased. I did it to see what would happen and I was right. That's all.

• For shots hit with a relatively normal bridge length (the 10-ball, the 3-ball, and the 7-ball, for example), the CB remains pretty much on the line to the pocket after it hits the OB. For these shots, the BHE is compensating quite well for the squirt, and the CB is moving straight toward the center of the OB. I'd say the natural pivot point for the cue you were using is somewhere in the range of the bridge lengths you used for those shots.

• 
  
  Somewhere in the range of bridge lengths? So is a pivot point an actual point or is it variable?
  
  

  [*]For shots hit with quite a short bridge length (8-ball, 5-ball, 6-ball), the CB moves to the left after hitting the OB. So the CB is hitting the OB to the left of the OB's center. Since you are using left english on all the shots, this means the BHE is actually over-compensating for the squirt. This is caused by using a bridge length that is shorter than the cue's natural pivot length.

  
  But the point is that the ball went in every time. With every bridge length.
  
  
  

  [*]For shots hit with quite a long bridge length (9-ball, 4-ball, 1-ball), the CB moves to the right after hitting the OB. That is, you are using left english and the CB is hitting the OB to the right of the OB's center. The BHE is under-compensating for the squirt, because your bridge length is longer than the natural pivot length of the cue.

And again the ball went in every time.

My point is that I can adjust how the cue ball reacts by adjusting the amount of spin and the amount of speed I use. Bridge length does not matter as long as I know what to do when I use any particular bridge length.

So when I play sometimes I can bridge at 12" and sometimes I can only make a 5" bridge due to the layout.

According to people who believe that BHE is ONLY good with a CERTAIN pivot point I should be unsuccessful with the bridge distance that is NOT at the cue's pivot point. BUT I can make shots using BHE with ANY bridge distance and I do it all the time when I play without any thought whatsoever as to the cue's pivot point.

The reason Stan mentions bridge length is because it does matter if you are trying to perform manual, on-the-table pivoting with CTE. A bridge length of 3", obviously, will produce a different final aiming line from a bridge length of 18" (assuming the bridge hand is placed on the same line in each case and the pivot is around the bridge). The use of just a half-tip pivot in Stan's version of CTE serves to minimize the bridge length effect, but it is still there.

Ok if you say so. I however use CTE two ways and both ways are equally effective. One way is to put my bridge hand down and manually pivot and the other way is is to do it all in the air and pivot on the way down. With both methods I put my bridge hand down at whatever distance I think is right with no regard to distance of the balls or cut angle.

My post #91 was merely pointing out that these varying bridge lengths with manual CTE present an additional complication to resolve when using BHE with CTE. With Pro One, there is no on-the-table pivoting, so the stick can be bridged at a point that works with BHE. John, I believe I remember that your current version of CTE does not have an on-the-table pivot (i.e., it's more like Pro One), so that may explain why BHE is working well for you with what you do.

I understand what you are saying. I am just presenting my own personal experience with CTE and BHE and how I use them. I happen to not agree with the idea that the pivot point of the cue is important with BHE. I think it's important to know what you can do with the cue you are using at all bridge distances and with all degrees of spin. That comes from using the cue and getting used to it. And it's the exact same whether you use BHE or Shifted English since no matter what the cuestick has to end up on the same line in order to get the same results when the same speed is used.

I hope you receive your DVD soon, as I look forward to your comments on CTE/Pro One after you have actually viewed the DVD.

That makes two of us. I should have had Stan put it into a $25 fedex envelope for 2 day express. :-(

 

[Ratta]

Hola,

a bit *off-topic*- but i really enjoy to see JB Cases is posting again.
Keep posting JB and wb
Nice to see your enthusiasm to help ppl (even defending something-no matter what^^).

further you wrote one sentence *somewhere* which includes for me a very important idea- for an advanced player i bet, too, that is horrible difficult to try a cte-system like Pro1 out without *thinking*. I think that could be the hardest part- to step totally free, without negative idea s, to try any CTE System out. I m really looking forward to get this DVD and im sure that i will have some problems the first hours (days. weeks, ..lol) to shut down my *older experiences* and tricky out my subconcious mind

but i will try it out, i swear

lg from overseas,

Ingo

 

[AtLarge]

... I think you should not consider anything about this video to be biased. ...

I didn't mean that you intentionally biased the demo, but I think the particular placement of the balls created an unintentional bias that allowed you to make some of the shots despite under- or over-compensating for squirt.

Somewhere in the range of bridge lengths? So is a pivot point an actual point or is it variable?

I don't know for sure. But I imagine any variability, if present, would be within a fairly small "zone" on the shaft. My point was simply that the natural pivot point (perhaps a single point) of the shaft you were using was probably somewhere between the shortest and longest bridge lengths you used that resulted in the CB striking at or very close to the center of the OB. If you bridge close to the natural pivot point, you'll get pretty good results with BHE.

But the point is that the ball went in every time. With every bridge length.

Try it again with greater ball separation and greater distance from OB to pocket. I predict you won't get the same results.

I happen to not agree with the idea that the pivot point of the cue is important with BHE.

Well, I think you're wrong about that. [But I do acknowledge that the effective use of BHE sometimes requires bridging at a point that is not at the shaft's natural pivot point -- on shots where swerve creeps in significantly, for example.]

The relevance of all this to this thread is that if someone is doing exactly what Stan says for manual, on-the-table CTE pivoting, he may get bad results on some shots using BHE. And I thought that point was worth noting in this thread; I didn't expect it to result in multiple, lengthy posts. For example, if the CB and OB are separated by about 10" (as in your video), Stan recommends a bridge length for CTE of 5"-6". If you are using a Predator Z-2 shaft with a pivot point of, say, 14", and you pivot at the bridge length of 5" or 6", you may well over-compensate for squirt and over-cut the OB (if using outside english) or under-cut the OB (if using inside english).

 

[irock]

MIKjary, and everyone else, who is helping some of us to better understand Stan's system, the help is appreciated. I am efficent using CTE, but like some others on AZ I have a more dramatic off set when I use it. I am curious, with your one tip off set in place, when you pivot for center ball, are you looking at the cue ball or OB edge, and which are you looking at when you pull the trigger.

 

[dgem]

The secret of learning these pivot aiming techniques like CTE, Ronv, Pro one, is to practice it at the table.

No matter how many times you watched the video or read the posts here you won't get it if you don't GO TO THE TABLE AND DO IT!!

 

[Mt. Cheverest]

My Pro One observations

I have been tracking CTE/Pro One for months now and I was finally relieved to get my copy of Stan's DVD. First off, let me thank Stan, Landon, and Stevie Moore and all other parties involved for making a great DVD with awesome production value.

Let me begin my stating that this system is far from simple, especially to those with no exposure to CTE or any pivot based system. Also, this system is no magic pill nor is any system. Stan says right in one of the chapters, that this system has a potential learning curve of WEEKS to MONTHS.....it depends on the person! One person may hop up and start running balls like never before and the next person may have frustration upon initial implementation.

CTE/Pro One simply gets you in line for the shot. It does not make the shot for you. You still have to EXECUTE, and that will be simpler for others. You still have to compensate for english when using more than a tip of BHE. You still have to play position. You still have to stroke straight. Stan says this right at the beginning. You need a reasonably straight stroke and you need to be able to CORRECTLY perceive the visuals that he is presenting to you.

I have matched up in two money games since viewing the DVD and going all out and using the system (more CTE than Pro One) and have won each session convincingly, especially the second matchup. I can not only SEE the difference, but I can FEEL the difference. There are shots that I initially felt I was lining up wrong using CTE but fired it in; this will happen to most of you especially if you had trouble with that particular shot to begin with. It will become natural over time, and I think that is where Pro One fits in.

As clearly mentioned, the Pro One pivot is quite confusing, I am even a little overwhelmed by it. That is why I am sticking with mostly manual CTE at this point. However, what I have noticed is that as I shoot shots more and more with CTE, I find myself coming into line with the shot more and more WITHOUT the distinct, manual pivot....and THAT is all Pro One is....CTE without the mechanical pivot. As you learn to shoot and line up with CTE, you will see where you need to be and the more natural motions of Pro One will develop over time. It's only been a week, but I can already feel it coming along.

So for those of you who are having troubles, give it time. Stan will help you. JB will help you. Dave Segal will help you. Hell, if you PM me I'll try to help, but I am NO expert, just a student of the game.

Well, this is by far the most I have every typed on here and my fingers hurt, so give it a shot, and good shooting to all.

 

[Eric.]

irock,

You should definitely work with Stan's Cte for a while before you move on to Pro One. You need to have the alignment points and pivoting down with manual Cte to really get the Pro One pivots. With practice your ability to recognize which pivot direction to use will become second nature.

The A, B, and C alignment points are not aiming points like in fractional aiming. Stan covers this in the dvd. They are visual reference points used with the CTE line to setup your aiming alignment for the shot. After you achieve this setup, you just pivot left or right.

Visually aligning the center to edge line and A,B, and C points allows your body to set up correctly for the shot. You are lined up and now finish the method with the pivot. No contact/aiming points are needed.

A help with the Pro One pivoting is to understand that the right pivot moves your eyes to the right of the center to edge line and vice versa. You are using this movement to replace the mechanical pivot.

Best,
Mike

Irock,

A,b, or c is your second reference point. First, you find the cte line. Then, without moving, look left (or right) and from the cte line/spot, see if the CB edge is aligned. With one of those points. If not, then resight the cte line cuz you might have been a lil off in your initial attempt.


Eric