Pro Pool tours... why do they fail?

vagabond said:
Fats was a genious.He also said ``pool player in a suit is like ``putting icing on a Hot Dog``:D

Actually, this quote has been attributed to Fats by many people, but the original line was from Wimpy Lassiter who said - "Putting a pool player in a tuxedo is like putting whipped cream on a hot dog." I'm not sure how the line got pegged to Fatty - then again he hardly ever stopped talking - lol.
 
Island Drive said:
The APA has had beer sponsorship for years, the market is much better there and the organization and the beer drinkers. I think Amberbock was or may still be the flag.

That's just the point--that the outside sponsors have found it more profitable to market through the leagues rather than the professional side of the sport. It must be clear by now that the majority of people who play pool don't watch it on TV. If they did, prize money for pool would be in the millions just like golf. Therefore, corporate sponsors go directly to where the pool players are--the leagues. Of course the point of impact is also the point of consumption, so it's a perfect fit--just not for the world class level of the sport!

I must agree with sjm that too many professional players do not help the cause. The lack of professionalism in all too many aspects (appearance, behavior on and off table, discourtesy to fans, "doin' business", and the like) are a major deterrent to any sponsor outside the billiard industry. Until players and aspiring players accept that fact, we will always be putting small-time, short-term financial gain and a hedonistic concept of "freedom" ahead of the long term interests of pool as a career and as a sport.
 
StraightPoolIU said:
Speaking of looking professional I want to take this opprotunity to give kudos to Thorsten Hohmann who was dressed quite resplendently and professionally when I saw him competing at last weeks DCC. One look was all it took to think "Now that guy is a champion."

I agree 100%...

The Europeans have a whole different look and attitude. Maybe thats why when I went to Ireland a few years ago they have 4 TV stations JUST FOR POOL! Snooker and 3-Cushion mostly...but you see a major difference.
 
catscradle said:
Exactly... The success or failure of pool has a spectator sport has absolutely NOTHING to do with apparel.

So why does Jeanette Lee draw such a crowd in low cut blouses and short skirt outfits then?

It must be the cue?

I think the success or failure of pool depends on 100 different issues. You just have to decide on each issue if is part of the problem or part of the solution. They recently started making basketball players wear suits to press conferences. This is due to a negative image the sport was getting as being "gang oriented" with all the tattoos and jewelry and gaudy sweatsuits. They knew the ratings decline would come quickly if they didnt do something. The NBA decided to end it BEFORE it took a bite out of revenue.

EDIT: Just wanted to remind people that more money is made through endorsements than sport earnings for many pro athletes.
Tiger Woods made $7,670,000 last year from golf. He made $70,000,000 from endorsements and personal appearance fees according to Sports Illustrated. That's 90% income from NOT playing Golf! I respectfully disagree with you Catscradle that appearance has NOTHING to do with the spectator aspect. I just wonder if Tiger Woods was a fat, unshaven, unwashed guy that cussed at the other golfers, picked his butt during play and commented on girls t*ts in the middle of a tourny the way some pool players do....I just wonder what his endorsement income would be? I personally believe it would be a lot less. Just my opinion.
 
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JAM said:
I understand this, all too well. I will state, though, that at the Vegas event last year, as one example, there were quite a few so-called "pros" whose suits, button-up shirts, and formal shoes were giving them fits when they were trying to compete. The dress code did allow turtle-neck shirts, and some pros took advantage of that. The long-sleeved shirts, which are required, did hamper some pros in that the shirt was hitting their cue sticks when they were stroking, and there were also some pros whose feet were hurting from the shoes.......

I agree with much of what you say. However, when the rules of an event are changed during the event willy nilly, when the ranking systems of a governing body of professional pool are done behind the scenes with absolutely no transparency, and only the friends of the authority figures seem to get picked for high-profile events, the fault may lay with something other than the professional player himself.

Logical as always, JAM. FYI, I'm not advocating formal dress, just tasteful dress. I believe, however, that a pro player should not have an appearance that is below the standard of the typical amateur players in a given pool room. Far too often, it is the most serious players and pros that show up to the poolroom in the most slovenly state, and I think this sets an unusually poor example. FYI, years ago, when I used to sponsor a PBT player, I gave him a $500 annual budget for clothing to would ensure he'd look the part in poolrooms and tournament venues. By the way, some clothes are both tasteful and comfortable, but, for the record, however, I do not think that shoes should be mandatory for pro players.

As for the hypocrisies and favoristism that still surface at times in our sport, I, like you, hope for better, but I believe that part of the problem is that far too many players have a bad habit of treating the handful of entrepreneurs and visionaries in their midst with distrust and contempt even before any indiscretions have been perpetrated against them.
 
Not enough people will pay to watch pool, and not enough people watch it when it's on TV.

That's the only answer. If millions of people were clamouring to watch pool then it would be on TV regularly and the purses would be high, I promise you, and it wouldn't matter what the format was, or how the players dressed or acted, or any of that crap. Get bodies in the seats (or viewers in front of their TV's), and money will follow. People need to stop thinking that it's the other way around, because it's not.
 
Can you imagine watching a basketball game between two teams you had never heard of? With no understanding of whether they are professional level or not? Would you turn on the tube, and watch a middle school basketball game from Georgia, if you lived in New York? I doubt it.

The same thing is true with pool. I know a few of my friends actually know who Jeanette Lee is, and Allison ("she's the one who looks like Hillary"...sorry Allison). But that's it. I doubt they could identify any male players, because they are always different, every time they are on. And I don't think anybody would be able to tell me a thing about them, except that they are good players. Really, I can't tell you anything about them. What's their favorite restaurant, color, superstition (we know Johnny's...;-).

So, part of making pool successful on TV is giving people some reason to care. Team sports are interesting because we all love our home towns. Tiger Woods is interesting because we know about his life. Pool is interesting because...?
 
... I believe that part of the problem is that far too many players have a bad habit of treating the handful of entrepreneurs and visionaries in their midst with distrust and contempt even before any indiscretions have been perpetrated against them.

Ha, I wonder why?
 
sjm said:
...As for the hypocrisies and favoristism that still surface at times in our sport, I, like you, hope for better, but I believe that part of the problem is that far too many players have a bad habit of treating the handful of entrepreneurs and visionaries in their midst with distrust and contempt even before any indiscretions have been perpetrated against them.

On a good note, I have read here that the UPA is going to be back on the pool scene, under new management and with a brand-new tour. I haven't heard a peep yet, but I think we will find out soon enough right here on AzBilliards, the best pool website on the net! :)

I'm always leaning towards what will benefit the players for obvious reasons. Everybody has their own agenda. I am disgusted today by the pool politics I have personally experienced, and I am not referring to the players' organizations.

However, those who laugh last do laugh the best, and I am now a woman on a mission in the year of 2007. :p

JAM
 
Pool players can't make millions partially because of the gambling (action) aspect of the sport. Go on any tennis or golf forum and look at the discussion of a major tournament, do you see a single post re "ACTION"? Now go to th DCC forum here, how many of the posts talk about "action" after hours? I understand the history of gambling and pool. However, if pool is ever to become mainstream, gambling MUST become HISTORY. Think about it..if you were the CEO of lets say....Mercedes Benz, would you want your product associated with a sport that lives on late night illegal gambling? Complete with titles like backers, stakehorses, enforcers etc....and we have all heard horror stories of what happens when someone can't or won't pay.

That image of pool must be dropped BEFORE we can have ANY hope of pool getting the PRIZE money it deserves. Maybe then the amount of the purses will not depend on the player turnout. The tennis US Open's prize money is not based on collecting players entrances fees.

And I am not talking about bet begin placed ON a certain outcome. That happens on every sport. I am talking about the PLAYERS gambling.
 
Fleece3 said:
Pool players can't make millions partially because of the gambling (action) aspect of the sport. Go on any tennis or golf forum and look at the discussion of a major tournament, do you see a single post re "ACTION"? Now go to th DCC forum here, how many of the posts talk about "action" after hours? I understand the history of gambling and pool. However, if pool is ever to become mainstream, gambling MUST become HISTORY. Think about it..if you were the CEO of lets say....Mercedes Benz, would you want your product associated with a sport that lives on late night illegal gambling? Complete with titles like backers, stakehorses, enforcers etc....and we have all heard horror stories of what happens when someone can't or won't pay.

That image of pool must be dropped BEFORE we can have ANY hope of pool getting the PRIZE money it deserves. Maybe then the amount of the purses will not depend on the player turnout. The tennis US Open's prize money is not based on collecting players entrances fees.

And I am not talking about bet begin placed ON a certain outcome. That happens on every sport. I am talking about the PLAYERS gambling.


Yacht racing is one of the more exclusive pastimes, and not a spectator sport, but it attracts sponsors like Rolex. Participants can pay huge amounts for boats. And racing yachts are an even worse investment than fancy cues.:D
 
Fleece3, I respectfully disagree. Not only would it be impossible to remove the gambling aspect from pool, it is not necessary. Look at any gambling website or sportsbook... or for that matter the office pool. (which I am sure you will see one coming to an office near you with the superbowl right around the corner) There is wide spread gambling on EVERYTHING. How many players and coaches for Baseball, Basketball, and Football have been busted for gambling on games within their own sport in the last 10 years? How has that effected that sports sponsorship? -it hasn't.

There are a lot of reasons why pool does not have a successful mens tour... but gambling is probably not even in the top 10.

IMHO

-Back2good1
 
back2good1 said:
Fleece3, I respectfully disagree. Not only would it be impossible to remove the gambling aspect from pool, it is not necessary. Look at any gambling website or sportsbook... or for that matter the office pool. (which I am sure you will see one coming to an office near you with the superbowl right around the corner) There is wide spread gambling on EVERYTHING. How many players and coaches for Baseball, Basketball, and Football have been busted for gambling on games within their own sport in the last 10 years? How has that effected that sports sponsorship? -it hasn't.

There are a lot of reasons why pool does not have a successful mens tour... but gambling is probably not even in the top 10.

IMHO

-Back2good1

Tap, Tap! The gambling aspect has sure damaged the World Poker Tour.:rolleyes:
 
Blackjack said:
Actually, this quote has been attributed to Fats by many people, but the original line was from Wimpy Lassiter who said - "Putting a pool player in a tuxedo is like putting whipped cream on a hot dog." I'm not sure how the line got pegged to Fatty - then again he hardly ever stopped talking - lol.

Dang. I will stay corrected. My age is showing up.:cool:
 
I've come full circle on the gambling thing. I used to think gambling needed to be removed to give a pro tour credibility. I've come around to a different way of thinking on that.

I still think "gambling" needs to go. "Gambling" being the guy who's 5 racks better trying to get away with spotting only 2, or the guy who dumps or double-dumps or some other scam. It's all the "hustles" that give pool such a seedy rep. Hustlers prey on people instead of simply competing with them. Add in sharking and cheating and no wonder the sport has a poor image.

That being said, there could be more drama in 2 players going head to head than in an ordinary tournament. So create officially sanctioned "challenge matches" that are part of the tour. Make them their own events or run them on the side of a tourney. Film them with commentary, etc.

Imagine some guy channel surfing who stops on some pool. He listens for a while and the announcers get it across that Jim and Bob are playing a 15-ahead match for $25,000. They've been playing for 20 hours straight. 4 hours ago Jim was 13 ahead but since then Bob has staged a dramatic comeback and they're back to even. Obviously you're only showing selected games or shots, but it's all edited to show some drama and excitement. Your channel surfer dude might actually find that interesting enough to tell his buddies about instead of brushing it off as just another tournament.

You could even make a tournament out of the challenge matches. Players win money every match but the amount goes up every round. Also, add some strategy in. Not every match has to be a fixed format. The two players involved get to negotiate the format of their own match. I'm generally against spots among Pros but let 'em do it if they want. Film that and show some of it too - adds interest to the actual match.
 
MasterRacker said:
I've come full circle on the gambling thing. I used to think gambling needed to be removed to give a pro tour credibility. I've come around to a different way of thinking on that.

I still think "gambling" needs to go. "Gambling" being the guy who's 5 racks better trying to get away with spotting only 2, or the guy who dumps or double-dumps or some other scam. It's all the "hustles" that give pool such a seedy rep. Hustlers prey on people instead of simply competing with them. Add in sharking and cheating and no wonder the sport has a poor image.

That being said, there could be more drama in 2 players going head to head than in an ordinary tournament. So create officially sanctioned "challenge matches" that are part of the tour. Make them their own events or run them on the side of a tourney. Film them with commentary, etc.

Imagine some guy channel surfing who stops on some pool. He listens for a while and the announcers get it across that Jim and Bob are playing a 15-ahead match for $25,000. They've been playing for 20 hours straight. 4 hours ago Jim was 13 ahead but since then Bob has staged a dramatic comeback and they're back to even. Obviously you're only showing selected games or shots, but it's all edited to show some drama and excitement. Your channel surfer dude might actually find that interesting enough to tell his buddies about instead of brushing it off as just another tournament.

You could even make a tournament out of the challenge matches. Players win money every match but the amount goes up every round. Also, add some strategy in. Not every match has to be a fixed format. The two players involved get to negotiate the format of their own match. I'm generally against spots among Pros but let 'em do it if they want. Film that and show some of it too - adds interest to the actual match.


I agree with you entirely, but I would add that the other thing that needs to be specifically named for the dustbin of history is dumping! I can think of no quicker way to drive money away from a sport than for it to be known that the outcome is being manipulated in anyway. Even at your local pool hall, how easy is it to get a backer if one or more of the participants in the match is known for doing business? If nothing else, players at all levels of the sport must, for our collective survival, decide to put this practice away. In the meantime, I'll hold my breath!
 
arsenius said:
Can you imagine watching a basketball game between two teams you had never heard of? With no understanding of whether they are professional level or not? Would you turn on the tube, and watch a middle school basketball game from Georgia, if you lived in New York? I doubt it.

The same thing is true with pool. I know a few of my friends actually know who Jeanette Lee is, and Allison ("she's the one who looks like Hillary"...sorry Allison). But that's it. I doubt they could identify any male players, because they are always different, every time they are on. And I don't think anybody would be able to tell me a thing about them, except that they are good players. Really, I can't tell you anything about them. What's their favorite restaurant, color, superstition (we know Johnny's...;-).

So, part of making pool successful on TV is giving people some reason to care. Team sports are interesting because we all love our home towns. Tiger Woods is interesting because we know about his life. Pool is interesting because...?



Bump.............I agree 100% SIR
 
cueandcushion said:
I just wonder if Tiger Woods was a fat, unshaven, unwashed guy that cussed at the other golfers, picked his butt during play and commented on girls t*ts in the middle of a tourny the way some pool players do....I just wonder what his endorsement income would be?

John Daly has done ok in endorsements, and he is pretty close the descriptive golfer you mentioned. :)
 
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