Problem Winning-brain doesn't want to close it out

K

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I wonder if anyone can relate to this. I would love to hear the input of people who really consider themselves great closers.

This weekend I played in an APA regional qualifier. I was in the toughest bracket of 7's. I played so-so the first day, but not great. So I practiced a bit and really worked it all out. I came back the next day and played a 9 am match and really played awesome. Next I move on to play the guy that beat me on Saturday 5-2. I'm thinking "Boy, he has another thing coming today". He breaks runs to the 8 and inexplicably misses! I get up and methodically run out and ultimately play perfectly and get to 4-0 in a race to 5. I run to a tough 8 ball and miss badly. He runs out. Then I proceed through a tough rack, break out a ball nicely, and have 2 balls facing me for the win. One is a hanger, and one is EASY. Not even a little hard. I'm thinking "That's it! All I have to do is focus and run these three easy balls and I have it." I carefully get down, and a lot of thoughts go through my mind..."this cueball is heavy, I need a fuller hit with a little english to get shape...what if I over spin this...stroke straight...etc." and I MISS!!!!! Guy runs out and breaks and runs the next rack and wins. I was so sick. He was a great player, but I HAD IT!! It was mine. Why didn't I take it? I said to him after that so many players that don't play as good as me would have run those 3 balls, what the hell is my problem?

So what do you guys think? How do you get beyond that? I feel like I can shoot good A speed if I could maintain concentration. I can concentrate very well for short periods, but when I get a big lead I feel like the match may as well be over and I back off.

So ideas? Bad diet? Poor sleep schedule? I really don't think its nerves.

Help me out,

KMRUNOUT

PS. Tom-if you read this-you know what Im talking about!!
 
I would also like some help on this, the mental game is what gets me every time.
 
KMRUNOUT said:
I wonder if anyone can relate to this. I would love to hear the input of people who really consider themselves great closers.

This weekend I played in an APA regional qualifier. I was in the toughest bracket of 7's. I played so-so the first day, but not great. So I practiced a bit and really worked it all out. I came back the next day and played a 9 am match and really played awesome. Next I move on to play the guy that beat me on Saturday 5-2. I'm thinking "Boy, he has another thing coming today". He breaks runs to the 8 and inexplicably misses! I get up and methodically run out and ultimately play perfectly and get to 4-0 in a race to 5. I run to a tough 8 ball and miss badly. He runs out. Then I proceed through a tough rack, break out a ball nicely, and have 2 balls facing me for the win. One is a hanger, and one is EASY. Not even a little hard. I'm thinking "That's it! All I have to do is focus and run these three easy balls and I have it." I carefully get down, and a lot of thoughts go through my mind..."this cueball is heavy, I need a fuller hit with a little english to get shape...what if I over spin this...stroke straight...etc." and I MISS!!!!! Guy runs out and breaks and runs the next rack and wins. I was so sick. He was a great player, but I HAD IT!! It was mine. Why didn't I take it? I said to him after that so many players that don't play as good as me would have run those 3 balls, what the hell is my problem?

So what do you guys think? How do you get beyond that? I feel like I can shoot good A speed if I could maintain concentration. I can concentrate very well for short periods, but when I get a big lead I feel like the match may as well be over and I back off.

So ideas? Bad diet? Poor sleep schedule? I really don't think its nerves.

Help me out,

KMRUNOUT

PS. Tom-if you read this-you know what Im talking about!!
Click to expand...
I'm not an A player, and not as consistent as I want to be, so take what I say with those qualifications. However, when I miss shots that I know I should make, I've come to the conclusion that it's my stroke that has failed me. I think that I get so focused on making the ball, that I kind of forget to stroke properly, which causes errors. Now when I'm under pressure over a fairly easy shot, I deliberately concentrate on feeling my stroke in the practice strokes--I really put my attention on my back hand and on smoothing it out. I deliberately try to think more about the stroke than about the ball going in. This obviously can't fix all problems of this type, but it has helped me.
 
Sometimes it's better to ignore the bigger picture...
and stay focused on the smaller details.

Ultimately it all boils down to stroking so that you can consistently pocket balls and get position that will help you to pocket the other balls.

This is true whether you're playing with friends or if you have a big match with major rewards riding on it.

The more you think about the bigger picture, the less you wind up thinking about stroking and making balls.
 
I think this is excellent advice. Unfortunately, I've already though of exactly this. I agree that focusing on the feelings ONLY in your stroking arm is a big benefit. My problem on the shot in question was definitly NOT stroke. I failed to confirm what I was doing. I never really said to myself "This is aimed right, I will be striking the cueball here". So I didn't TRY to do the right thing. It wasn't a failure to execute. It was a failure in pre-shot preparation. I believe this is due to a lack of focus. Almost like I wanted to get it over with. Why didn't I take the extra time to do it right?

Thanks,

KMRUNOUT
 
Yep... The difference is that often times it's more than just the stroke. Allison Fisher gave me some advice where she said to notice one's rhythm - the amount of time between determining which shot to take, and executing it. Is it consistent to what's needed to be successful? It's not only the amount of time but it's what you do with it. Stay focused.

This is an interesting exercise in self awareness and/or awareness of others that can only truly be observed by play at the table.
 
KMRUNOUT said:
I wonder if anyone can relate to this. I would love to hear the input of people who really consider themselves great closers.

This weekend I played in an APA regional qualifier. I was in the toughest bracket of 7's. I played so-so the first day, but not great. So I practiced a bit and really worked it all out. I came back the next day and played a 9 am match and really played awesome. Next I move on to play the guy that beat me on Saturday 5-2. I'm thinking "Boy, he has another thing coming today". He breaks runs to the 8 and inexplicably misses! I get up and methodically run out and ultimately play perfectly and get to 4-0 in a race to 5. I run to a tough 8 ball and miss badly. He runs out. Then I proceed through a tough rack, break out a ball nicely, and have 2 balls facing me for the win. One is a hanger, and one is EASY. Not even a little hard. I'm thinking "That's it! All I have to do is focus and run these three easy balls and I have it." I carefully get down, and a lot of thoughts go through my mind..."this cueball is heavy, I need a fuller hit with a little english to get shape...what if I over spin this...stroke straight...etc." and I MISS!!!!! Guy runs out and breaks and runs the next rack and wins. I was so sick. He was a great player, but I HAD IT!! It was mine. Why didn't I take it? I said to him after that so many players that don't play as good as me would have run those 3 balls, what the hell is my problem?

So what do you guys think? How do you get beyond that? I feel like I can shoot good A speed if I could maintain concentration. I can concentrate very well for short periods, but when I get a big lead I feel like the match may as well be over and I back off.

So ideas? Bad diet? Poor sleep schedule? I really don't think its nerves.

Help me out,

KMRUNOUT

PS. Tom-if you read this-you know what Im talking about!!
Click to expand...

Read the line in my signature....

"When an archer is shooting for nothing he has all his skill. If he shoots for a brass buckle he is already nervous. If he shoots for a prize of gold he goes blind or he sees two targets - he is out of his mind!

His skill has not changed. But the prize divides him. He cares. He thinks more of winning than of shooting and the need to win drains him of power. " - Chuang Tzu

Makes sense to me.
 
I would love to know the answer to your question as well.

I am one of the best in the world when it comes to giving away games/matches....

I am afraid there is no easy answer to your question, or one that anyone will be willing to give up....for me..it seems to be one of the elusive "secrets to pool"

I have heard that some people actually "fear" winning....but I am still "unsure" what that actually means...:confused:
 
I was once told that "if I planned to take this game to a higher level that I needed to play with money that might hurt to lose. Then after a good beating or two you will soon realize to just let it go and accept where you are or you are going to learn go finish people off and not let up.

Just a thought...
 
Lastballitis....

I had this, it developed after I had beaten everyone in my local Hall, and they begged for another shot, so intentionaly i started hanging up the money ball..then in tournaments they would swing thier sticks like batans, yell, dance, clap, anything including bumping into me to try to distract me.... After Awhile, I started hanging the money ball over and over, I delt with this for more than a year...Then when did actualy pot the money ball, I felt unnessasary pressure, whitch useualy meant the next rack would be an easy win for my opponet....

I shoke that beast but it wasnt easy....I now rob these players because they think they know how to beat me...Im not going to complain, and I would get into how i did it, but My keyboard is toast and im using the on screen keyboard, whitch basicaly sucks, and likely my mouse will be toast after all this cliking...lol


SPINDOKTOR
 
Hey KM, can't answer your question. But I figured I could get your attention here. :)

Call me in regards to SBE plans, the number I have for you is no good.
Later,
Steve.

<edit>
Okay I'll add in an opinion. You are a very good player, some we lose just because, but of the ones you shouldn't lose... I think it is more often than not a concentration lag, not a problem with generally finishing. Your mind goes a mile a minute which is good and bad, when it occurs at the wrong time it can cost you a game or a match. My mind wonders because my concetration is fading with age, yours is due to a very busy mind.
You know I don't play your speed, so take that into consideration when evaluating my opinion. Assuming I've hit a cord, I'd be interested in hearing how more seasoned players say to deal with it.

<edit part deux>
Somebody recently reminded me of a Yogi Bera quote: "You can't hit and think at the same time."
 
Last edited:
KMRUNOUT said:
Then I proceed through a tough rack, break out a ball nicely, and have 2 balls facing me for the win. One is a hanger, and one is EASY. Not even a little hard. I'm thinking "That's it! All I have to do is focus and run these three easy balls and I have it."
Click to expand...

So you spent your time standing up and examining the table between shots thinking about winning, instead of thinking in detail about how you're going to shoot your shot.

KMRUNOUT said:
I carefully get down, and a lot of thoughts go through my mind..."this cueball is heavy, I need a fuller hit with a little english to get shape...what if I over spin this...stroke straight...etc." and I MISS!!!!!
Click to expand...

And then when you're down on your shot you're thinking about things you should have analyzed while standing, instead of focusing on alignment and aim and visualizing the shot.

I think that's your answer. The excitement of the situation distracted you from doing the thinking you should have been doing between shots, and then you were behind in your thinking, and you weren't able to clear your mind to shoot.

Next time, wait until your thoughts of "this is going perfectly, I'm going to win from here" die down so you can focus on the task at hand. THEN do your thinking while standing. Then get down on the shot. It's very tempting to rush when you see the finish line. Resist the urge and be patient until your distracting thoughts about winning have cleared out to make room for your necessary thoughts about aiming and shooting and playing position.

-Andrew
 
For me, the biggest part here is controlling my thoughts. Its very difficult. I find I can give myself excuses to lose. Maybe not excuses, but reasons why its ok not to try my best. Its brutal. It can be so hard to kick.

I found that when I played in tournaments with somewhat of a range of skill levels, it can get me from both sides. If I play someone who I think is about my speed or a little higher, I play my best, and do quite well. But if I play someone who is a 'name', someone who is known, I can always start off well. But if I start to get behind, thoughts like 'Ive gone 4 rounds, losing to so and so would still be a respectable outing'. Really got to get that out of my head. Ive been able to do it a few times mid-match, and its very satisfying.

The same thing can happen to me from the other end too. Im playing a player who I know has no business beating me. So other thoughts start creeping in like 'i should play safe here, but, meh, if i miss, im probably going to get back to the table against this guy anyway'. Wrong way to think for sure. I think this is similiar to the situation you are talking about. Your mindset changes. You dont have to 'perform' to win anymore. You are up 4-0 going to 5, maybe you start thinking 'he has to screw up once and give me an out'. You have to always keep the kill attitude. You are up 4-0, you should want to beat them 5-0. Like, really want it. When Im playing good, in my mind, I want to devistate people. I want them to quit playing pool forever after they play me. If I could only always have that mindset.

Like someone else said too, I can't emphasize the preshot routine enough. Especially when you are getting down a bit during a match. Golfers and snooker players do it, and for a reason.
 
Andrew Manning said:
So you spent your time standing up and examining the table between shots thinking about winning, instead of thinking in detail about how you're going to shoot your shot.



And then when you're down on your shot you're thinking about things you should have analyzed while standing, instead of focusing on alignment and aim and visualizing the shot.

I think that's your answer. The excitement of the situation distracted you from doing the thinking you should have been doing between shots, and then you were behind in your thinking, and you weren't able to clear your mind to shoot.

Next time, wait until your thoughts of "this is going perfectly, I'm going to win from here" die down so you can focus on the task at hand. THEN do your thinking while standing. Then get down on the shot. It's very tempting to rush when you see the finish line. Resist the urge and be patient until your distracting thoughts about winning have cleared out to make room for your necessary thoughts about aiming and shooting and playing position.

-Andrew
Click to expand...


Andrew,
Thanks. This is exactly what I did all through my first match and through the first 4 games of this match. Being patient seems to become maore difficult the more it looks like I am going to win. Its like I can run 95 yards, break tackles, do amazing backflips, and when I bust through the last tackler and see the goal line 10 feet in front of me with no obstacle, I fall on my face. Now this is NOT a consistent problem. I have won many tournaments and come through in the clutch plenty of times...it just seems lately I am having this trouble.

Thanks again,
KMRUNOUT
 
Two things

First, if you get down over a shot and any thoughts start running through your mind other than those needed to execute the shot how you planned to while you were standing, stand up! You aren't on a clock so if you have to do this five times it doesn't really matter.

However the real issue isn't something to master at the table. Completing a run is dealing with the mental game and you have to work on that in your own skull. You were in trouble when you were looking at three "easy" balls. There are no hard or easy shots in my runs, there aren't really any individual shots, each shot is just a component in my total run. Until the money ball drops I'm into my run and shooting every ball the same.

Hu
 
real good posts here guys!

Putting pressure on your game will bring out all kinds of emotions....good and bad. You have to learn to be a good closer, just like you learn to hit high inside spin shots. For some it's part of your personality to close out, for others like me (with the Mr. Nice guy) personality it was hard for me to crush players.....especially if they were friends. I still have it to some extent, but just knowing your personality traits can fix half the issues.

Now when anything is on the line, I can put it in the right gear, finish out the match, then go buy the guy a beer to make me feel better.:D

Along the same lines, don't confuse a plain ole miss with doggin it....sometimes we just miss. I have found I can break down my misses into a few categories.

>80%... My largest % of misses comes from NOT having a very crystal clear picture in my head of the shot/feel/and final cueball position.

>10%...shooting low % shots, hell they ARE hard to make right.:D

>10%...I call the who gives a "F" shots....when I'm not playing for anything substantial, or nothing on the line....I just lack concentration to care about the shot.

I used to get WAY Amp't up in tourneys from wanting to play well so badly, or being nervous about playing Pro's, or when I'm up on a player over my speed....All of those things calmed down with playing more tough matches, gaining more knowledge of the game, and learning what my abilities are on the table<<<< big Ego :( admitting you can't, or shouldn't shoot some shots is hard for me to do.

good luck
 
I know what you mean

KMRUNOUT said:
I wonder if anyone can relate to this.
This weekend I played in an APA regional qualifier. I was in the toughest bracket of 7's. He was a great player, but I HAD IT!! It was mine. Why didn't I take it? I said to him after that so many players that don't play as good as me would have run those 3 balls, what the hell is my problem?

So what do you guys think? How do you get beyond that? I feel like I can shoot good A speed if I could maintain concentration. I can concentrate very well for short periods, but when I get a big lead I feel like the match may as well be over and I back off.

So ideas? Bad diet? Poor sleep schedule? I really don't think its nerves.
Click to expand...

Dude, I know exactly what you mean. I was in Bakersfield in the second sheet of the same Tier, and I keep replaying my shots in my head like a freakin' nightmare. I was expecting slow cloth on the tables, and I ended up over stroking my shots. I tried to adjust by toning my stroke down, and I noticed a lot of my friends that were there were doing the same. But, all it took was that one shot that the cue ball just kept rolling, and rolling, and rolling until I got myself out of shape. I think the number one reason for my losses during Regionals was that I didn't control whitey.
I have a new found respect for 7 foot tables with fast cloth.
All in all, I think I shot well in the event. Especially, compared to how I have been shooting lately. And I too, think that I am having problems with staying focused and concentrating. I think that I have become to comfortable while playing pool that I am running on auto-pilot. I have caught myself shooting shots without even aiming. I just get down and shoot....no practice strokes, no aiming. I have caught myself shooting shots without even looking at the OB during the shot. I am finding that I have a lot of instinctive actions/adjustments that are screwing up my game because I notice the routine shots are the ones I am missing and the difficult shots are the ones I am successful with. And it's because I am focusing more on the difficult shots.
I am going to practice playing str8 pool again because it will help me to focus on every shot, even the easy ones. That, and I just saw the Texas Hold'em Tourney on TV with John Schmidt aka Mr. 400. They said he runs 100 balls for breakfast. I think the most I have ever run is 2 racks, but when I was playing str8 pool, I was playing a hell of a lot better than I am playing now.
 
FLICKit said:
Sometimes it's better to ignore the bigger picture...
and stay focused on the smaller details.

Ultimately it all boils down to stroking so that you can consistently pocket balls and get position that will help you to pocket the other balls.

This is true whether you're playing with friends or if you have a big match with major rewards riding on it.

The more you think about the bigger picture, the less you wind up thinking about stroking and making balls.
Click to expand...

This reminds me of a poster I had in my office for many years, ' Focus on the ditails, not, the results. Manage details and results will come."
 
Irish634 said:
Well, this is rather long, but in my opinion, a good read.

Competitive Anxiety: How to avoid choke shots
Click to expand...


Wow...what a good article!

When I first started to read this, I honestly felt a bit offended at first, and almost stopped reading...telling myself it does not apply to me... but I kept reading and realized that this is me this articel is talking about.

The compulsive gambler will play anybody, anytime, and nearly always loses money in the end. The person who plays to prove to himself that he is no good - he is basically a loser too, taking on a level of competition that he knows he can't win

After reading this article, I can clearly see my problem by just looking no farther than my previous post on this thread....Even though it was slightly sarcastic, it is basically nothing but a seriously negative outlook on the future of my game.

I definatly fall into the "cognative" destruction since if you were to look at me prior to a match (or even during) you would not even consider me to be being nervous...(until I open my mouth and spew out some "reason for not winning")...

I have even gone so far in the past as to actually "quit" a match because I felt like I was being cheated and what purpose was there for me to continue since there was no way I was going to beat a "cheater"....What I should have done instead was tell myself...This guy needs to "cheat" to beat me.....he must be worried about losing....I should stick around a shove the match up his arse...so to speak....(Perhaps what I was really doing was looking for a way to get out of a match with a player that I percieved as being better than me)

It has always amazed me at how many matches I have just given away, and I could never put my hand on "why" ...Well....now I understand.....and...now I understand some of the tactics used by some of the so called "better players"....;)

I can think of a ton of past examples of things that would (and did) distract me from my abilities.....(weather anyone outwardly knew about it or not) ....some of them starting before I even made it to the pool room....

I had joked that I though perhaps I needed a sports psycologist....After reading this article...it may not be so much a joke...:)

I am acutally excited to apply the concepts of this article...I had never bothered to actually read this kind of stuff cause I never really thought it applied to me since I never really felt like the "pressure" had anything to do with me personally, but perhaps it is time to read that "tennis" book and "pleasures in motion" book.


I don't think I have ever done this...but I am giving my first ever rep point out to you...(and the starter of this thread) :)
 
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