Problems drawing the ball on simonis 760

His Boy Elroy said:
Lots of interesting input. Thanks everyone. Although Tony in M.D, I did prefer your first post to your second.:D
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I know for myself when I preformed a poor draw shot it was the quality of my stroke more so than the equipment.


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Tony_in_MD said:
I think seven year old cloth is broken in enough that it is not slick.

It takes more than new cloth to make a table play fast. The cushions are a big part too. Where they ever changed out?

Be careful comparing your table speed with matches played during pro events. When a match is professionally broadcast there is a huge bank of high intensity lights about the table which heats and dries out the cloth making it very fast. Often the tv table at a tourney plays different than the others.

Humidity played a factor. The drier the air the faster the table.

Finally in my experience a player is just not hitting as low as they think on the cueball.





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Ughh, well; all my life I've had this affliction. I can't do anything about it. The best way I can explain it is ...when I was in school and other kids would try to get my attention, they would do it by saying things to me like, "Elroy, this is mission control. come in Elroy. This is earth speaking. Are you out there Elroy? Please contact mission control if you're out there Elroy." As I said, this is an affliction I can't do anything about. Simple things that are obvious to other people kinda escape me frequently. Also, I'll estimate I've spent 10,000 hours of my life shooting pool balls. 2 of those hours have been in a pool room. 9998 of those hours have been in my basement. Please don't anyone post and say "Get thyself to a poolroom ! You're being anti social!" I'm highly aware of this. So; what your saying is that the slowness of my table may have nothing to do with the cloth. It might be the cushions - hhmm! Maybe that's something to think about. My dad put a fine Minnesota Fats 8 foot pool table in the basement in 1971. I still live in the same house. I've changed the cloth several times but I've never replaced the cushions. As I said; I have this affliction. Things that are simple to other people kinda escape me. Thanks for the post. I think maybe I'll replace the cushions and we'll see what happens.
 
Elroy have you been talking about a Minnesota fats pool table the whole time?

Please don't get offended but doing anything to that table is like putting lipstick on a pig.

Save your money and buy a quality table as time and budget allows.


His Boy Elroy said:
Ughh, well; all my life I've had this affliction. I can't do anything about it. The best way I can explain it is ...when I was in school and other kids would try to get my attention, they would do it by saying things to me like, "Elroy, this is mission control. come in Elroy. This is earth speaking. Are you out there Elroy? Please contact mission control if you're out there Elroy." As I said, this is an affliction I can't do anything about. Simple things that are obvious to other people kinda escape me frequently. Also, I'll estimate I've spent 10,000 hours of my life shooting pool balls. 2 of those hours have been in a pool room. 9998 of those hours have been in my basement. Please don't anyone post and say "Get thyself to a poolroom ! You're being anti social!" I'm highly aware of this. So; what your saying is that the slowness of my table may have nothing to do with the cloth. It might be the cushions - hhmm! Maybe that's something to think about. My dad put a fine Minnesota Fats 8 foot pool table in the basement in 1971. I still live in the same house. I've changed the cloth several times but I've never replaced the cushions. As I said; I have this affliction. Things that are simple to other people kinda escape me. Thanks for the post. I think maybe I'll replace the cushions and we'll see what happens.
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Tony_in_MD said:
Elroy have you been talking about a Minnesota fats pool table the whole time?

Please don't get offended but doing anything to that table is like putting lipstick on a pig.

Save your money and buy a quality table as time and budget allows.







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
Click to expand...
My dad payed $650 for it back in 1971. That translates to $3750 dollars now. Nevertheless, if you are critical of Minnesota Fats tables I would appreciate any input you could provide and would not be the least bit offended. Please elaborate.
 
His Boy Elroy said:
I'm having problems miscueing on my draw shots. I've been drawing foe 42 years. I know how it's done. This miscueing started about about a year ago when I bought a few new cues that were of much better quality than what I had been using.

I've been thinking maybe the tips were too hard, then I was told if you can draw you can draw. It doesn't matter if the tip is hard or soft. I'm also aware that the tips I am using are quality ones.

So now I'm thinking it's my simonis 760. I know the pros used it for a year before they told simonis it was too fast and simonis gave them 860. Every cloth I've ever had on my table was too slow IMO so I put 760 on it about 7 years ago.

There must be something wrong with the air in my basement because it was never very fast. Not even on the first day. I'd watch matches on TV and the 860 the pros were playing on was much faster. It is, however, faster than any other cloth I've ever had.

Now I'm thinking, maybe in order to make it fast they had to cut back on friction, and maybe you're not supposed to be able to draw well on 760. Maybe my draws would go twice as far on 860 with the same hit put on them. Maybe with the higher capabilities my new cues afford me along with my frustration at the lack of distance I'm getting, I'm trying unrealistic Mike Massey type draws and that's why I'm miscueing.

So now you're saying, "Why are you asking us, you knucklehead? Get to a poolroom and see for yourself if the ball draws better on 860." As I've stated in a few previous posts; I'm kinda bashful. That's why I'm asking you.
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Ill throw a couple things your way. I'm not trying to be rude, but I noticed you say simple things might get past you.

If you keep miscueing make sure your tip is scuffed well. If you have a harder tip it will get glazed over often.

If you can't draw when you don't miscue then your either not hitting low/low enough. It would be more likely the cueball than the felt. Or the balls period.

760 is fast cloth.( The faster the cloth the more draw you can get. Well actually not. It's not more draw, it's just that the ball travels farther due to friction but you get my point.)

I have a couple questions for you.
Did you felt the table yourself?
What kind of balls do you have?
What actual reaction do you get when trying to draw when you don't miscue?
Do you have any issues with top/side spins?
How much max follow can you get? (Let's say on a shot where the cueball is 2 diamonds from the object ball)

I'm going to guess you might have a measles ball. If so try a red circle instead. I'm not trying to start that arguement In your thread, but just about everyone I've ever seen gets a red circle moving more.
 
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His Boy Elroy said:
My dad payed $650 for it back in 1971. That translates to $3750 dollars now. Nevertheless, if you are critical of Minnesota Fats tables I would appreciate any input you could provide and would not be the least bit offended. Please elaborate.
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They are sold at sears and Walmart today for 1200 max. Does it have real slate?

For 3750 real money today you can get a diamond. You know the table that many pro tourneys use. What do you think it would sell for today. Rough guess 500 dollars

If the table has sentimental value I understand keeping it. As it was designed for home use by the time you do it all to have it play more like professional tourney tables. You are better off buying a diamond or gold crown used.


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'Elroy',

Can you shoot from one corner pocket in the direction of the diagonal corner but 2.5 to 3 diamonds up the long rail & get the ball to go 3 to 4 rails or hit the short rail one diamond from the pocket & get the ball to go 4 to 5 rails?

Best,
Rick

PS My Brunswick Sport King that my Dad & I got used in 1968 still has the original cushions & they still play great. Brunswick must have used super real rubber in those days.
 
95% of the time if I miscue, it was due to a poor stroke. It didn't have a thing to do with cloth, tip, or anything else. If your stroke is good, you should be able to take a house cue, and draw the ball without having a miscue.

Yes miscues can be caused by not chalking and such, but I would venture 98% of miscues are caused by poor mechanics. At least, this has been my experience.
 
Tony_in_MD said:
They are sold at sears and Walmart today for 1200 max. Does it have real slate?

For 3750 real money today you can get a diamond. You know the table that many pro tourneys use. What do you think it would sell for today. Rough guess 500 dollars

If the table has sentimental value I understand keeping it. As it was designed for home use by the time you do it all to have it play more like professional tourney tables. You are better off buying a diamond or gold crown used.


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Sure. It has real slate. If they're sold at Sears and Walmart today for $1200 max that means Minnesota fats tables today are totally different from what they were in 1971. We bought this at a dealership that sold Fats tables exclusively. Schwinn bicycles are still sold today, but the Schwinn family no longer owns it and there are no dealerships that sell Schwinn bicycles exclusively. In 1971 Schwinn was a big name in the bicycle business and there were dealerships all over. Maybe it's a similar situation with Fats tables
 
I could be wrong but I think there was an affiliation by Brunswick with AMF back in those days & AMF was the brand of some tables with a bit of lessor 'quality' or less aesthetic foundations for what were essentially Brunswick tables.

Again I could be wrong.
 
1. Make sure cue ball is CLEAN.
2. If the cloth you have on the table was repulled, and reused a second time, you need new cloth....Period.
3. If the installer put the cloth on upside down like what happened to Gary Benson yrs ago with a fresh delivery of Valley New tables, with the fuzzy side up, that's def the cause, same goes for repulled cloth.

Good luck, your answer should be simple once found. If the cloth is old and worn out, well that's your decision, but Clean Whitey 1st
 
it is the best.....just like he was

His Boy Elroy said:
Sure. It has real slate. If they're sold at Sears and Walmart today for $1200 max that means Minnesota fats tables today are totally different from what they were in 1971. We bought this at a dealership that sold Fats tables exclusively. Schwinn bicycles are still sold today, but the Schwinn family no longer owns it and there are no dealerships that sell Schwinn bicycles exclusively. In 1971 Schwinn was a big name in the bicycle business and there were dealerships all over. Maybe it's a similar situation with Fats tables
Click to expand...

Anything with Minnesota Fat's name on it must be the best.....just like he was. ;)
 
Fat's Hustlin at Sears....

I remember these tables at Sears in the 70's wish my Mom had kept those catalogs. I didn't know of any dealerships that sold them exclusively, but I was a kid at that time.

Here is a 7 foot 1971 Fats table for sale in Chicago for 300.

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/atq/4034351893.html

If you have questions about your table check out the mechanics forum. Maybe one of them had experience with these tables.



His Boy Elroy said:
Sure. It has real slate. If they're sold at Sears and Walmart today for $1200 max that means Minnesota fats tables today are totally different from what they were in 1971. We bought this at a dealership that sold Fats tables exclusively. Schwinn bicycles are still sold today, but the Schwinn family no longer owns it and there are no dealerships that sell Schwinn bicycles exclusively. In 1971 Schwinn was a big name in the bicycle business and there were dealerships all over. Maybe it's a similar situation with Fats tables
Click to expand...
 
Alright. I just talked to my dad. We definitely did buy The Minnesota Fats pool table at one of their dealerships. He paid $600 for it in 1971.That would be $3,460 today. He said he's pretty sure they went out of business, but obviously someone ended up with the rights to the name.

I installed the 760 myself. I had help pulling it, but we pulled ot REAL tight. Yes, the right side is on top. I'd heard horror stories about that situation. I live in Chicago. It's a very humid day today but it's not exactly tropical during the winter and the speed of the table is the same all year around. It simply has to be the cushions. I never thought about that.

As for my miscueing problems.... I've read all your suggestions and I'm just back from the table and I'm pretty sure I have this figured out. IT'S ALL IN MY HEAD! The thing is; I know how to draw! I've been doing it for 42 years!

So I'm at my table and I'm practicing my draws and miscueing occasionally and I realize, I'm only giving it a half-hearted effort. I'm not putting the proper stroke on it. So I get down on a ball and say to myself, "Okay, put your real good draw stroke on it this time."

Then I realize, I don't want to put my real good draw stroke on it. So now I have to be honest with myself and try and figure out why this is the case. I think what happened is I take great pride in the way I can draw the ball and somewhere I got into a rut and started miscueing while doing a thing I do very well and take great pride in.

It would be one thing if I got into a rut and started drawing less effectively, but miscueing after playing for 42 years is just plain embarrassing; even if I'm by myself. So I stopped using my real good draw stroke. It was just too painful when I miscued. I just didn't tell myself I stopped. So I've been miscueing, and It's been a concern. That's why I posted about it, but it hasn't been exactly painful because somewhere in my mind I knew I was only giving a half-hearted effort.

So for a while just before I sat down here I bit the bullet and got down and gave it my best draw stroke. I miscued on 7 of my first 10 shots and GOD it hurt; but on three of those shots I brought it back on a string like I haven't done in a year.

After an hour I was miscueing about half the time, but when I hit it good it came back just the way it used to and just the way I wanted it to. I know how to do this. My muscle memory just got shaken up somewhere. I'll just keep at it until the muscle memory stabilizes and the miscueing dissapears - and it seems the only way that's
going to happen is by enduring the pain!

So thanks for all the suggestions. It was because of all the thought they generated that led me realize what the real problem was:smile:
 
His Boy Elroy said:
Alright. I just talked to my dad. We definitely did buy The Minnesota Fats pool table at one of their dealerships. He paid $600 for it in 1971.That would be $3,460 today. He said he's pretty sure they went out of business, but obviously someone ended up with the rights to the name.

I installed the 760 myself. I had help pulling it, but we pulled ot REAL tight. Yes, the right side is on top. I'd heard horror stories about that situation. I live in Chicago. It's a very humid day today but it's not exactly tropical during the winter and the speed of the table is the same all year around. It simply has to be the cushions. I never thought about that.

As for my miscueing problems.... I've read all your suggestions and I'm just back from the table and I'm pretty sure I have this figured out. IT'S ALL IN MY HEAD! The thing is; I know how to draw! I've been doing it for 42 years!

So I'm at my table and I'm practicing my draws and miscueing occasionally and I realize, I'm only giving it a half-hearted effort. I'm not putting the proper stroke on it. So I get down on a ball and say to myself, "Okay, put your real good draw stroke on it this time."

Then I realize, I don't want to put my real good draw stroke on it. So now I have to be honest with myself and try and figure out why this is the case. I think what happened is I take great pride in the way I can draw the ball and somewhere I got into a rut and started miscueing while doing a thing I do very well and take great pride in.

It would be one thing if I got into a rut and started drawing less effectively, but miscueing after playing for 42 years is just plain embarrassing; even if I'm by myself. So I stopped using my real good draw stroke. It was just too painful when I miscued. I just didn't tell myself I stopped. So I've been miscueing, and It's been a concern. That's why I posted about it, but it hasn't been exactly painful because somewhere in my mind I knew I was only giving a half-hearted effort.

So for a while just before I sat down here I bit the bullet and got down and gave it my best draw stroke. I miscued on 7 of my first 10 shots and GOD it hurt; but on three of those shots I brought it back on a string like I haven't done in a year.

After an hour I was miscueing about half the time, but when I hit it good it came back just the way it used to and just the way I wanted it to. I know how to do this. My muscle memory just got shaken up somewhere. I'll just keep at it until the muscle memory stabilizes and the miscueing dissapears - and it seems the only way that's
going to happen is by enduring the pain!

So thanks for all the suggestions. It was because of all the thought they generated that led me realize what the real problem was:smile:
Click to expand...

Try finishing with the tip touching the cloth after the cueball is struck, or a quick ''snap back'' stroke on a draw shot with minimal bridge distance. Similar to the reaction you'd do, if ya stuck your hand in a cactus needle.
 
The more you try, the worse it gets. You get flashbacks of miscuing and being embarrassed and pissed off. All negative emotions that cause the draw stroke to spasm because you start to throw your whole body into the stroke.

If you get down relaxed and quit trying to draw the ball, you will! It is just another shot. Do you try too hard on other shots? Of course not. You build up the draw stroke into a negative experience and forget to let it happen. You lunge at the ball instead of stroke it and curl and twist your arm into an epileptic type seizure instead of a smooth, relaxed artistic creation your body already knows how to do.

When the balls are close, you probably have little problem and possibly over draw at times. Take this same stroke and imagine the balls are close together. See what happens. Don't let your thinking mind tell your body what to do.

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
The more you try, the worse it gets. You get flashbacks of miscuing and being embarrassed and pissed off. All negative emotions that cause the draw stroke to spasm because you start to throw your whole body into the stroke.

If you get down relaxed and quit trying to draw the ball, you will! It is just another shot. Do you try too hard on other shots? Of course not. You build up the draw stroke into a negative experience and forget to let it happen. You lunge at the ball instead of stroke it and curl and twist your arm into an epileptic type seizure instead of a smooth, relaxed artistic creation your body already knows how to do.

When the balls are close, you probably have little problem and possibly over draw at times. Take this same stroke and imagine the balls are close together. See what happens. Don't let your thinking mind tell your body what to do.

Best,
Mike
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Interesting. I'll abide by your suggestions. Thanks.
 
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