Problems With This Shot

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DrCue'sProtege

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ok posters, i had this shot at the table a couple of nights ago, and proceeded to mess up. i overcut this, and shot the 5-Ball into the short rail along Point B. i intended to hit this with just a little easy low right, trying to bring the cue ball back to around Point A.

i wanted to avoid the 8-Ball at all costs, and not get anywhere near it. i didnt want to have to bridge over/around the 8-Ball, but i didnt want to hit it too hard either. so i eased up a little, and tried to put too much low right on the shot, compensating for hitting it a little easier. also, i had to bridge over the 6-Ball which somewhat affected the shot and stroke.

as a result i overcut the shot. this is somewhat routine for me, trying to ease up, compensating by trying to get too much low right, and then overcutting the shot.

CueTable Help

 
bridging over a ball is no fun for anyone. I'm no expert but I think I'd opt for no draw, no outside english and just concentrate on getting to the other side of the eight ball for the slight backwards cut on the six and go the two rails for the 8 in the lower left pocket. I'm just thinking how to increase the percentages of making the shot. Bridging over the ball is going to require a higher bridge, and then applying draw equals jacking up some and shooting off the parallel plane with the table, so to me .... that equals possible masse problems with my aim. :(
 
i expect you missed due to cue ball swerve. you will get more swerve when you hit higher or lower than the center line with left or right spin.
 
yeah, if you weren't jacked up over the 6 I'd say low right is the correct shot, the right is to make sure you keep away from the 8 and climb back towards the middle of the table. You don't want to risk the draw not catching as well as you think it should (which can happen if the cue ball is immediately hitting a rail afterwards).

But jacked up over the 6, the rule of thumb on any jacked up shot is avoid sidespin. A lot of books teach that and in most situations you can follow the advice and come out ok. I like 3andstop's solution of coming under the 8. You can put a little draw on the ball just to keep it from rolling forward after hitting the 5. Draw while jacked up doesn't add much difficulty to the shot, and you don't need fantastic speed control to fall in that big window between the 8 and the bottom rail. Anywhere in there will be a very playable shot on the 6.
 
never said i was Jacked Up over the 6-Ball. i said i had to bridge over it, which affected the shot slightly. slightly being the key word there.

i think i just wanted to be sure to get away from the 8-Ball, and tried to give it more right than needed. as a result, i hit the cue ball too far right (ever so slightly) and overcut the shot.

DCP
 
Shot

I wouldn't have played it that way especially bridging over the 6. I would have shot that with just slight high right, come across below the 8 and have the cue ball end up about where the 5 is except the other side.

Then if you have a slight back cut on the 6, use low left to go over to the other side and back off for a pretty straight shot on the 8.

Note: Even if you shot it to bump the 8, what is the big deal? It lines you up on the 6 and bumps the 8 towards the long rail for easier shape after shooting the 6 (and for the 9 ball shape).

Shot barometer: If you are worried about 3 or more things about a shot, you are, mostly likely, not shooting it the right way.
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
ok posters, i had this shot at the table a couple of nights ago, and proceeded to mess up. i overcut this, and shot the 5-Ball into the short rail along Point B. i intended to hit this with just a little easy low right, trying to bring the cue ball back to around Point A.

i wanted to avoid the 8-Ball at all costs, and not get anywhere near it. i didnt want to have to bridge over/around the 8-Ball, but i didnt want to hit it too hard either. so i eased up a little, and tried to put too much low right on the shot, compensating for hitting it a little easier. also, i had to bridge over the 6-Ball which somewhat affected the shot and stroke.

as a result i overcut the shot. this is somewhat routine for me, trying to ease up, compensating by trying to get too much low right, and then overcutting the shot.

CueTable Help

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Here's some outside of the box thinking for you. This particular shot with the angle that you have is actually very touchy. Controlling the cue ball to the center of the table for shape could go haywire if you're not "feeling" the shot. Try this: With low right spin, use a firmer hit and pull the cue ball back in a line that will take you under the 6 ball. This will allow you to shoot the 5 with a more confident stroke, plus it will give you pocket options on the 6 ball. No matter where you end up below the 6, you will be able to get on the 8.

Hope that makes sence!
 
Neil said:
I think you are making a common mistake... using english when you don't need to. And in this case, when you shouldn't be using it. If your diagram is accurate, look at the tangent line off the 5. It is near the 8. So all you have to do is put a little draw on the cueball. You don't need the sidespin.

Using sidespin when you are jacked up will automatically cause you to masse the cueball. Thereby hitting to thin in this case.

There's an old acronym that applies in this situation---KISS. It stands for Keep It Simple Stupid. (not calling you stupid, by the way) This is one of the things the pros have, they keep it simple. Thereby eliminating the chance for mistakes that didn't need to happen.
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I agree with Neil 100% on this one. In addition to eliminating the possibility of swerve, playing it this way allows you to stroke the shot a little firmer and still end up in the middle of the table, since there is no outside english to add speed off the rail.

Remember that the OB ball distance from the rail is a huge determining factor in shaping your position options. If the object ball was closer to the rail you would probably have been forced to play it the way Snapshot suggested. As it lies however, I would prefer to go the center of the table, thus creating less distance and avoiding collision with any balls.
 
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Once again, its so hard for me to visualize exactly the table from even a graphic like this, but I think nothing but bad can happen if you draw this. I just don't see a need to. :(
 
Louis Ulrich said:
Here's some outside of the box thinking for you. This particular shot with the angle that you have is actually very touchy. Controlling the cue ball to the center of the table for shape could go haywire if you're not "feeling" the shot. Try this: With low right spin, use a firmer hit and pull the cue ball back in a line that will take you under the 6 ball. This will allow you to shoot the 5 with a more confident stroke, plus it will give you pocket options on the 6 ball. No matter where you end up below the 6, you will be able to get on the 8.

Hope that makes sence!
Click to expand...

I was thinking just below center with a firm stroke, and almost the same cue ball path. I was thinking a cue ball path aiming to go two rails and play the 6 in the lower left corner. If you get a bit too much draw, you end up with your cue ball position. Too little draw, and you end up straight in the lower right corner. Some where in bettween those two, you bump the 6 and end up straight in. A little too soft, and you are straight in the upper left corner. Just a bit harder than that, you are straight in the side on the 6.

If you were talking about a path that caught the second rail between the pocket and the 6, then we are talking about the same shot.

Russ

edit: Cuetable diagram added for clarity.... I would hit this shot with nothing more than just below center.
 

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As stated earlier, anytime you are jacked up over a ball you sometimes put english on the ball whether its intentional or not and this can cause the "swurve" and you miss the shot by a diamond or so. Try cinching the ball with little english and dont let up on your stroke....remeber to follow through the shot. Hope this helps.

Southpaw
 
Russ Chewning said:
I was thinking just below center with a firm stroke, and almost the same cue ball path. I was thinking a cue ball path aiming to go two rails and play the 6 in the lower left corner. If you get a bit too much draw, you end up with your cue ball position. Too little draw, and you end up straight in the lower right corner. Some where in bettween those two, you bump the 6 and end up straight in. A little too soft, and you are straight in the upper left corner. Just a bit harder than that, you are straight in the side on the 6.

If you were talking about a path that caught the second rail between the pocket and the 6, then we are talking about the same shot.

Russ
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I think we have the same shot in mind. There are so many ways to play this shot that it could be argued for days. Table speed, pocket size and confidence of the player shooting this shot would dictate the proper play imo.
 
Louis Ulrich said:
Here's some outside of the box thinking for you. This particular shot with the angle that you have is actually very touchy. Controlling the cue ball to the center of the table for shape could go haywire if you're not "feeling" the shot. Try this: With low right spin, use a firmer hit and pull the cue ball back in a line that will take you under the 6 ball. This will allow you to shoot the 5 with a more confident stroke, plus it will give you pocket options on the 6 ball. No matter where you end up below the 6, you will be able to get on the 8.

Hope that makes sence!
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Hi Louis,

I read your post just after submitting mine, and I'm inclined to defer to your professional expertise when you state that playing a z-shot to go underneath the six is more dog-proof, particularly if you're playing on new cloth. At that speed, the swerve is definitely taken out of play a little bit more, provided that bridging over the six doesn't require too high an angle of elevation. I won't be at a table for another few hours, but I'd like to set the shot up because I suspect that the true determining factor in how to play this shot is the angle of cue stick elevation. If I'm more than just a tiny bit jacked up I think I would have to go with my original shot with a little draw to go center table.

BTW, I noted that you beat my fellow Caribbean player, Ditto Acosta, in the World 10-ball tournament this past weekend. How's he hitting 'em? If I know Ditto (and I do), there will definitely be some action for you if you're ever in Aruba. He definitely believes in avenging defeats!:cool:

From what I've read, you played a great tournament this past weekend, and I thank you for posting on this forum and wish you success in your budding professional career.
 
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VIProfessor said:
Hi Louis,

I read your post just after submitting mine, and I'm inclined to defer to your professional expertise when you state that playing a z-shot to go underneath the six is more dog-proof, particularly if you're playing on new cloth. At that speed, the swerve is definitely taken out of play a little bit more.

BTW, I noted that you beat my fellow Caribbean player, Ditto Acosta, in the tournament this past weekend? How's he hitting 'em? If I know Ditto (and I do) there will definitely be some action for you if you ever find yourself in Aruba. He definitely believes in avenging defeats!:cool:

From what I've read, you played a great tournament this past weekend, and I thank you for posting on this forum and wish you success in your budding professional career.
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If I ever find myself in Aruba I sure as hell hope it's not for pool :D. Anyway, Ditto started off on the dog really bad and allowed me a big lead. He started playing well toward the end. I spoke with him for awhile later. Nice guy.
 
I use high with enough right to straighten the angle off the rail, with good speed you will hit below the 8 (closer to the 9) and back out for a shot on the 6, I would not try to draw the ball in this situation, imo it makes the run alot tougher than it needs to be... HTH

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SPINDOKTOR
 
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I wouldn't recommend avoiding side-spin altogether on these types of shots, because there will be plenty of situations in 9-ball where you absolutely must use side spin when jacked up, and, as they say, practice makes perfect. In addition to that, I personally like using a little side-spin on this shot for several reasons:

First, side-spin stays on the cb longer than draw, thus allowing you to play position using a slightly less-firm hit than an all-draw approach; to me, less-firm usually translates into more accurate, which is good. Additionally, the cb is going to hit the rail very soon after contact with the 5 ball, which means that your draw doesn't have a lot of time to dig in anyway; the more effective (and predictable) shot, it seems to me, is to just use enough draw to have the cb sliding when it hits the 5, then throw in a touch of right to bring you uptable a bit wider than the natural rebound angle. Also, if using this approach, you may still end up ok even if your draw dies out faster than you're expecting it to, which is not an uncommon occurrence for most of us; with a draw-only approach, this could be problematic.

One other thing I might mention is a rule I tend to follow. I'm sure it's not for everybody, so take this with a grain of salt, but I do think it allows me to have more confidence in certain situations. I generally try to avoid using center-ball (as in no left or right spin) on shots that require a fairly firm stroke and somewhat sensitive position. My reason for this is that, unless you have a perfect stroke, which I don't :D, there is no such thing as dead-center-ball; you're inevitably going to put some kind of side-spin, even if it's only a touch, on the cb. In most cases where sensitive position is required, you'll find that a touch of right is much better than a touch of left, or vice versa. In this case, for example, you'd be much better off with a touch of right than a touch of left (which could negate some of your draw, possibly putting you smack behind the 8-ball), so my approach is to go ahead and cue for a touch of right just for insurance, if you will.

Good luck,
Aaron
 
Louis Ulrich said:
If I ever find myself in Aruba I sure as hell hope it's not for pool :D. Anyway, Ditto started off on the dog really bad and allowed me a big lead. He started playing well toward the end. I spoke with him for awhile later. Nice guy.
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Let me tell you, Louis, if you're ever in Aruba make sure you play some pool! I've played in Aruba twice, once on a road trip and once in team competition, and I had an absolute blast, inside and outside of the pool hall! Pool is one of the national sports in Aruba, and its the only place I've been to where pool players are truly appreciated for their skill (I obviously haven't been to Asia). It's unbelievable! When I first went there with some of my boys, they put it out over the radio that we were coming, and the place was packed with spectators the whole time we were there!

I've got to relate a little story about my first trip to Aruba with Spanish Pete and Trini. At the time (2000), the players in Aruba didn't bother with handicapping, and there was (and probably still is) a ton of money behind them. They would put in their best player at $2K a set and if you got ahead of him two sets they would pull him out and put in their second best for the same money--no spot. If you beat the second best, they'll put in their third best, the same way--right on down the line through about their top 5 or 6 players. On our first night there Trini and I did a little damage, and on the second night, Pete lined them all up and ran through them like a hot knife through butter. Ditto was trying to get him drunk and it just wasn't working. Pete did a McCready on them--got a little tipsy, but just kept rolling right through the racks.

We grinded on them a little more on the third day, and then they told us that their cousin, who had been off-island, would be there to play the next day. When we got to pool hall on the fourth day, there was a little short familiar figure sitting quietly in the corner. The "cousin" was Mario Cruz from Miami, who they had brought in to win their money back. We all knew who he was, so naturally we weren't looking to jump in the box with him (Pete and I were headed to Florida next, and playing Mario was just a lose-lose proposition). At that point, our boy Ditto Acosta went off! "What, you've been in Aruba four days, you're winning us over 30,000 guilders and you won't play our cousin?!! Well if you don't play, you'll never leave Aruba alive!!"

Thankfully, it turned out that this was all bluster, and since then Ditto and I have gotten along great. Since then, they've opened new pool faclities and they've definitely gotten a lot smarter about matching up!

I won't bother you with the details of the social life outside the pool hall in Aruba, but suffice it to say that you'll always be eager to go back! In short, Aruba is one of the best vacation destinations that a pool player can dream of!
 
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I dunno. From what I see here, I'm spinning this ball in with right. My goal is to have the cue-ball die before it crosses the middle of the table which shouldn't be tough to do. My reason for using no draw is simple - You get swerve that way and you're likely to overcut the ball. You can use right, hit it slightly thicker since you'll throw it a little and not get much cue-ball movement.
 
My bad, I thought your bridging over the 6 ball meant an elevated cue butt... it looks like it would only affect it a few degrees though. Still, swerve might have been what caused the miss.

I disagree with Russ's zigzag path under the 6 ball. The general rule applies - minimize cueball movement. With the zigzag path it's very easy to end up on the 50 yard line... you hit a foot short on your 6 feet of travel (very possible) and it's sitting on the rail with a 40+ degree cut in the side or corner. If you hit it one foot too hard up near the head spot and it becomes a real tester.
 
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