He obviously has you confused with me. I drink enough for you AND Jerry..
Proposed Ivory Ban - The Saga Continues...
- Thread starter Joe Barringer
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He obviously has you confused with me. I drink enough for you AND Jerry..
How does that make you feel TW?
It's OK for you to call me a liar and cast shadows of doubt about who I am as a person every time I post a position on the forum. You make suggestions that I represent myself as someone I certainly am not because quite frankly you can't process all of my experience, qualification and talents that makes me who I am. If you talk to anyone who knows me you will find that all your attacks on me regarding my expertise in many areas and character judgments are false representations about someone you don't know and don't have not a clue regarding what is and what is not.
I am glad to hear that you have given up the drinking because that is a positive thing and I applaud your success in that area.
So if it is not the drink speaking there is no excuse for you to be a self centered omnipotent person condesending on everyone here with the "ID" of a little baby that you are. Bad behavior and dressing down everyone you interface with is just plain bad manners. Since you have no excuse for this behavior like the booze anymore then that simply makes you a plane old everyday jerk.
You got the balls to post a pic of one of my fancy playing cues and broadcast that It was a perfect example of who not to arrange inlays on a cue. As a guy with only 11 years of experience with 8 years of limited part time concentration and 3 years at full time building cues, whatever I do should not surprise some who has 30 years in the game. Get over your self Dude!! Everyone progresses at their own schedule for their own reasons. Comments from the TW peanut gallery are completely foolish endeavors on your part to discredit others. For No Good Reason!
What is also very funny is that you post my Scimitar Cue and state I just plastered inlays around the cue as to suggest that I was trying to show some kind of functional art. Not!! When I look at your "Dem Bones" cue I see the repeating of images over and over. I get it and that was where you were in snapshot view not so many years ago. As you have progressed from that "Generation X" mundane and typical skull grafitti, I have to laugh at your opinion of a cue I build. When you put 100 inlays on a cue, they got to go somewhere. Some players like symmetry slathered on an ebony cue and might not like the skateboard skull graphics from your past artistic endeavors.
BTW, you can call me a lier all you want without any basis or merit but all who know me understand that lying in 180 degrees from what I am all about. Every time you do it and campaign those statements you put more egg on you face the way I see it.
Rick
This is my cue you posted out of the blue to show others that just taking inlays and throwing them or slathering them all over a cue is "what not to do in cue making". LOL
The second photo is your Dem Bones Cue. The Pot calling the kettle black, me thinks! Kinda like when you where on the CDT band wagon concerning a box veneer ring design I did. My response was to post the South West Copy Cat Cues you were doing in the 90s. Like I said, let everyone porgress at there own pace. Just like you did.
You have the right to do and say what you want but so do I.
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More drama and commercials away from the original intention of this thread .
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How does that make you feel TW?
It's OK for you to call me a liar and cast shadows of doubt about who I am as a person every time I post a position on the forum. You make suggestions that I represent myself as someone I certainly am not because quite frankly you can't process all of my experience, qualification and talents that makes me who I am. If you talk to anyone who knows me you will find that all your attacks on me regarding my expertise in many areas and character judgments are false representations about someone you don't know and don't have not a clue regarding what is and what is not.
I am glad to hear that you have given up the drinking because that is a positive thing and I applaud your success in that area.
So if it is not the drink speaking there is no excuse for you to be a self centered omnipotent person condesending on everyone here with the "ID" of a little baby that you are. Bad behavior and dressing down everyone you interface with is just plain bad manners. Since you have no excuse for this behavior like the booze anymore then that simply makes you a plane old everyday jerk.
You got the balls to post a pic of one of my fancy playing cues and broadcast that It was a perfect example of who not to arrange inlays on a cue. As a guy with only 11 years of experience with 8 years of limited part time concentration and 3 years at full time building cues, whatever I do should not surprise some who has 30 years in the game. Get over your self Dude!! Everyone progresses at their own schedule for their own reasons. Comments for the TW peanut gallery are completely foolish endeavors on your part to discredit others. For No Good Reason!
What is also very funny is that you post my Scimitar Cue and state I just plastered inlays around the cue as to suggest that I was trying to show some kind of functional art. Not!! When I look at your "Dem Bones" cue I see the repeating of images over and over. I get it and that was where you were in snapshot view not so many years ago. As you have progressed from that "Generation X" mundane and typical skull grafitti, I have to laugh at your opinion of a cue I build. When you put 100 inlays on a cue, they got to go somewhere. Some players like symmetry slathered on an ebony cue and might not like the skateboard skull graphics from your past artistic endeavors.
BTW, you can call me a lier all you want without any basis or merit but all who know me understand that lying in 180 degrees from what I am all about. Every time you do it and campaign those statements you put more egg on you face the way I see it.
Rick
This is my cue you posted out of the blue to show others that just taking inlays and throwing them or slathering them all over a cue is "what not to do in cue making". LOL
The second photo is your Dem Bones Cue. The Pot calling the kettle black, me thinks! Kinda like when you where on the CDT band wagon concerning a box veneer ring design I did. My response was to post the South West Copy Cat Cues you were doing in the 90s. Like I said, let everyone porgress at there own pace. Just like you did.
You have the right to do and say what you want but so do I.
While Dem Bones qualifies as being the same theme, I'll think you'll find it hard to find two skulls that are the same....
Just to correct a few misconceptions (no surprise there huh!)...
1) Any proposed or enacted state laws and political issues coming out of California are not a concern for the rest of the United States because California is a foreign country and has no bearing on reality nor do they affect us normal people.
2) The correct date for pre ban African ivory is mentioned numerous times in this thread as being various dates in the 70's. That is not correct. The correct date for pre ban African is June 1989.
3)
The above statement is factually incorrect. Ivory has hit an all time low. We have been buying more ivory than we need and want but we're still buying at prices which have allowed us to sell it for an all time low; well under $100 per pound. In fact, we recently sold several pairs of tusks in the $75 per pound range for 25 to 40lb tusks.
We believe if the current trend continues, there will be less demand due to fear, due to questionable sales ability and due to the current administration. Ivory is coming out of the woodwork as more and more people are looking to unload it as they don't want to be left holding the bag.
And lastly, the whole issue, as we've mentioned on numerous previous occasions, this is all driven by money. The corrupt charities with million dollar salaries for their corporate big-shots are at the forefront along with the current admin and FWS jockeying for position. It's a shame and very corrupt.
Everyone is fighting the fight but personally it's a losing battle. Pre ban is leaving a bad taste in everyone's mouth and there will be no return to the 'norm' from there.
In closing, let's try to keep this thread on track and not get derailed or deleted. Ignore you know who.
1) Any proposed or enacted state laws and political issues coming out of California are not a concern for the rest of the United States because California is a foreign country and has no bearing on reality nor do they affect us normal people.
2) The correct date for pre ban African ivory is mentioned numerous times in this thread as being various dates in the 70's. That is not correct. The correct date for pre ban African is June 1989.
3)
The above statement is factually incorrect. Ivory has hit an all time low. We have been buying more ivory than we need and want but we're still buying at prices which have allowed us to sell it for an all time low; well under $100 per pound. In fact, we recently sold several pairs of tusks in the $75 per pound range for 25 to 40lb tusks.
We believe if the current trend continues, there will be less demand due to fear, due to questionable sales ability and due to the current administration. Ivory is coming out of the woodwork as more and more people are looking to unload it as they don't want to be left holding the bag.
And lastly, the whole issue, as we've mentioned on numerous previous occasions, this is all driven by money. The corrupt charities with million dollar salaries for their corporate big-shots are at the forefront along with the current admin and FWS jockeying for position. It's a shame and very corrupt.
Everyone is fighting the fight but personally it's a losing battle. Pre ban is leaving a bad taste in everyone's mouth and there will be no return to the 'norm' from there.
In closing, let's try to keep this thread on track and not get derailed or deleted. Ignore you know who.
Joe,
You are very right. Sorry I hijacked your thread with my post.
This is a very serious subject.
Rick
You are very right. Sorry I hijacked your thread with my post.
This is a very serious subject.
Rick
And I forgot to mention...
4) There have been bans enacted for the poaching, illegal trafficking, etc of Elephant Ivory and charities established for this very purpose; as such...
Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Therefore, since the banning has not been working because the nuts out there think we need more bans, perhaps its time for a new approach.
And morons with much more money than brains donate to these charities. What a system!
4) There have been bans enacted for the poaching, illegal trafficking, etc of Elephant Ivory and charities established for this very purpose; as such...
Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Therefore, since the banning has not been working because the nuts out there think we need more bans, perhaps its time for a new approach.
And morons with much more money than brains donate to these charities. What a system!
There will be zero tolerance for further "stupid" comments and such.
If you cannot contribute constructively without insults, you will be met with a ban.
Please take this warning seriously.
Dave
If you cannot contribute constructively without insults, you will be met with a ban.
Please take this warning seriously.
Dave
In my entire life I have NEVER been what anyone would call a "drinker", let alone a heavy one, so there was never anything for me to "give up".
To be absolutely clear, you don’t know me. We have never been in the same room together. We have never socialized publicly or privately; in fact we have NEVER EVEN MET. And most importantly, you have never seen me “drunk” and you cannot cite one credible source that has, because I don’t ever get drunk. You have absolutely no basis whatsoever for saying I am an alcoholic or ever have been - it’s no different from stating that I beat my wife, or steal from the offering plate at church.
Um, to err on the side of caution, let me just mention that I don’t do any of those things either.
Which raises a related issue. What kind of person would start a nasty personal rumor, simply to “get even” with someone who didn’t like their cue design? Prior to this I’ve merely viewed you to be a rich source of found humor, as have many others. And, in all honesty, I do think your “Scimitar” cue design is abysmal. But those are simply opinions, easily countered by the simple fact that you successfully sold the cue ”so what does Thomas Wayne know anyway”?
Opinions are easily countered by other opinions, but when two people disagree there really is no justification in one of them trying to destroy the other person with false rumors of such a vicious nature. I’m astonished that you would rationalize your doing so as if it was exactly what any normal person would do. It’s not, but in light of Mr. Wilson’s previous post I will refrain from describing what sort of person would do such a thing. Suffice it to say, not a normal person. This is a major symptom, Rick. Seek help.
TW
Glad to see you return Thomas. I would hate to have seen this thread die because of someone’s clowning around. I feel that I’ve gotten some useful insight from you as well as others on this subject. Most recognize that there are two camps on this issue and also know how passionate this issue has become. Thanks for your work and research, most of us realize that this isn’t something we should ignore or concede to. There is much more at stake here than ivory and elephants.
That brings me to ask you and others how fallout from a complete ban may impact cue making, collecting, the ACA/ICA organizations, and major cue events such as the ICCS. IMO, one of the reasons we didn’t see an ICCS last fall had to do in part, with this very issue. I can’t imagine anyone going to the SBE in April and displaying ivory cues. The risk is just too great.
To the OP, Joe, I hope I haven't derailed this thread. If so, I apologize and will see that this gets another thread. I just see this as all related and something that I don’t believe has been discussed from a cue maker and collector perspective. I also believe that the true impact to the pool community alone, should this legislation become fully enacted, will be crippling. Whether you are a player, maker, collector or dealer, the fallout most certainly will be felt by the sport, our businesses, our hobbies, and, will put most in ignorance of the law and of its’ legal interpretations. It almost certainly will put many otherwise law abiding citizens in the crosshairs of those looking to make an example of you.
Like Joe has mentioned, the fear of a ban has already caused some to distance themselves from anything ivory. For some, that can be easier done than others. I’m interested to know where we see this going should the hammer drop.
Paul
That brings me to ask you and others how fallout from a complete ban may impact cue making, collecting, the ACA/ICA organizations, and major cue events such as the ICCS. IMO, one of the reasons we didn’t see an ICCS last fall had to do in part, with this very issue. I can’t imagine anyone going to the SBE in April and displaying ivory cues. The risk is just too great.
To the OP, Joe, I hope I haven't derailed this thread. If so, I apologize and will see that this gets another thread. I just see this as all related and something that I don’t believe has been discussed from a cue maker and collector perspective. I also believe that the true impact to the pool community alone, should this legislation become fully enacted, will be crippling. Whether you are a player, maker, collector or dealer, the fallout most certainly will be felt by the sport, our businesses, our hobbies, and, will put most in ignorance of the law and of its’ legal interpretations. It almost certainly will put many otherwise law abiding citizens in the crosshairs of those looking to make an example of you.
Like Joe has mentioned, the fear of a ban has already caused some to distance themselves from anything ivory. For some, that can be easier done than others. I’m interested to know where we see this going should the hammer drop.
Paul
"Some"! The wholesale price of ivory has dropped considerably but the dimensioning is still up there due to the labor involved cutting (slabs, ferrules, joints and butts) so the parts are still costly.
There are only a few major buyers who can handle all the tusks coming onto the market and most are not buying or buying at reduced pricing. We see this in the amount of calls we are receiving. The market is in chaos as well as the owners of tusks. They're all running scared and are trying to 'dump' their ivory. They play stupid when they call. It's amusing.
Where is this going? The damage is done.
What about value? Well, if you want a Gina Cue (or similar), I'm sure you're still going to always pay handsomely. If you're trying to sell Tony Baloney's ivory cue for a huge premium, good luck. I may be wrong but this is my opinion.
The market, as we see it, is still strong for ivory ferrules but it has fallen off for most other parts such as butts. Inlay slabs are still selling well so we know it's being used.
Since we also sell into the knife, gun, cue, fishing rod, furniture markets -- there has been fallout there as well.
We have not seen a slow-down in ivory grips for guns which is telling.
I believe there will always be a collector market for high end ivory cues but I see the market narrowing as we move forward. Again, that's my opinion and I could be wrong. I was once wrong so this could be the second time.
IVORY IN THE NEWS
http://www.dailypaul.com/286938/charles-kokesh-indicted-over-elephant-tusk-sales
This is not a "new" development; case is from 2013, which is when I began following it. However, it is currently being re-published in various places, no doubt to support the questionable allegations (by FWS and others) that there is a strong domestic trade in illegal ivory.
The salient facts in this case are that the indicted person, one Charles Kokesh, allegedly sold two African elephant tusks and also made false accounts of wildlife related to that sale to FWS.
Apparently Kokesh legally imported a sport-hunted African elephant trophy mount into the United States, but later illegally sold the two tusks to a commercial ivory buyer in Florida. In earlier reports (which were more detailed) it was mentioned that the ivory buyer reported the sale to federal agents, and that the "buyer" had been acting a government informant on behalf of FWS.
Kind of a "cautionary tale" for sure. Scary times out there. Probably a very good idea to be extremely careful about who you do business with when buying (or selling) ivory. Sounds like there's someone out there in Florida, offering to buy ivory, who's actually a snitch for the feds...
TW
Talk about ancient news and not being in the loop.
The above referenced "article" is actually partly true (the commentary is totally inaccurate) however the tusks were never sold legally or illegally to the buyer who was actually in Lakeland, Florida. Oh and if anyone chooses to believe any inference in the fiction above, we'll wager our $100k against your $10k that we can produce the 'dealer' in Lakeland. Are there any takers?
The alleged buyer was hardly a commercial Ivory buyer but merely a small time supplier of gun grips. He was certainly not an informant but when questioned by FWS, he just provided info about the alleged transaction to FWS as would any citizen who had done nothing wrong.
The particulars of this fiasco were well known throughout the ivory business as many of us all spoke about the story when it was actually occurring. The government had no case.
How do we know all this? We know the gun grip maker in Lakeland and the details are well know among all us ivory buyers.
FWS did ask him to testify and he was prepared to testify that the tusks were being offered to him. It was a whole he said, he said nonsense. They never actually concluded the sale. When it came to going to trial, the alleged non-buyer in Lakeland actually went to court and the case was dismissed. Yes, the ivory case against Kokesh was dismissed but hardly anyone knows that important info, much less the actual circumstances of the case and reasons for it being dismissed. Those in the know are already well versed in all this so I can see where uninformed people can draw unrealistic conclusions.
The funny thing was that these tusks were offered to us and everyone else out there who purchases ivory. The seller, Kokesh was located in New Mexico. The seller kept calling around to everyone and all the ivory dealers knew of him and we informed each other to be on the look-out for this joker.
The sad part is that 'news stories' like this are still left up on the web for people to be misinformed and led to false conclusions as you can see. Of course, there was never any follow-up about the case being dismissed (yes it was actually dismissed by the judge) nor any follow ups to there never being any conviction and that leads to people looking foolish when commenting about things they know little about.
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The reader infers, the writer implies. It's a simple distinction - I think I learned that in 7th grade English - but since you enjoy writing so much I though you could use the tip.
Nevertheless, when it comes to buying OR selling ivory these days it's probably sound advice to be sure of whomever one is [potentially] dealing with. I'm sure you'd agree.
TW
I would like to personally thank you for pointing that out. However, I beg to differ with your grammatical use of the word inference since inference denotes a conclusion with regard to all the inaccuracies that you originally presented. I though I'd point that out because you enjoy writing so much (certainly much more than I do) and you so often castigate others over their errors that it is important to point out the errors in your commentary.
The use is correct however, more importantly than perhaps any grammatical error is the fact that you make huge errors and your commentary was done maliciously for the sole purpose of defaming a certain Florida Ivory dealer. I don't know who your target may have been but what you attempted was just plain wrong and flies in the face of common decency.
Additionally, we'd like to point out some glaring errors which you made:
1) You state that "it is currently being re-published in various places". The story is far from "current". However, there is a recent publication for the son of Kokesh which merely touches on the father's ivory case and especially mentions that the case was dismissd by a Federal judge. This brings into question, your motivation of even bringing up this case in the manner in which you did.
2) If you had indeed been "following it" when it "began", anyone "following it" would also know that there were many errors in the original news reports. I guess you weren't "following it" as closely as you would like us to believe.
3) Also, had you been "following" the story when it "began", you would have also known or should have known that Kokesh never "illegally sold the two tusks to a commercial ivory buyer in Florida".
4) Since you have been "following it" and since you know that it is "currently being re-published in various places" then a dismissed case would hardly [/I]support the questionable allegations (by FWS and others) that there is a strong domestic trade in illegal ivory"[/i]
In fact, Kokesh's target was not even an "ivory buyer" but a gun dealer who in turn contacted the gun grip maker (in Lakeland, Florida) who was attempting to buy the ivory from the gun dealer. So as you can see, you had the entire story wrong. You actually didn't know nearly as much as you initially led on but you wanted to communicate and have us all believe that you were well versed with the story since you had been "following it". I don't think you did a very good job at "following it" and you were clearly not in the loop.
I'm sure a man of your caliber who is interested in honesty, integrity and just good reporting could have contacted many ivory dealers to find out the true story prior to carpet bombing AZ with the maligned misinformation you posted. Although one cannot lay blame on you as you just merely posted commentary based on your interpretation of incomplete stories and then drawing incorrect conclusions. Let this be a lesson to everyone to research and be certain of issues prior to posting on the internet. I'm sure you'd agree with this since you wouldn't want to look foolish commenting with incorrect information.
Oh wait a second, you knew about it "currently being re-published in various places" because you were "following it" and yet you failed to mention that the Kokesh case was dismissed. This also brings into question your motivation.
Nevertheless, when it comes to buying or selling ivory these days it's probably sound advice to be sure of whomever one is dealing with. Everyone should deal with professional ivory sellers who are actually in the business, in the loop and actually know what is going on. I'm sure you'd agree.
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