Proposed Rule Changes for nine-ball, opinions please.

inside_english

inside_english

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So I'm playing a league match the other day, and my opponent, disgruntled for some reason, decided he was going to slam the balls around the table as hard as he could. In doing so, he managed to win four games by making highly improbable nine-ball combinations.

Naturally I was ticked.

I understand it is a part of the game, but in a race to seven this leaves a particularly bad taste in my mouth. So I thought...wouldn't it be nice to play an altered version of the game? Here is what I propose, and you tell me if you would be willing to play in a tourney with these rules:

1. The nine ball never counts on the break. It gets spotted.
2. The nine ball must be the last ball made to win the game. If you make a combination on the nine, it gets spotted and you keep shooting, provided you made a legal shot in the first place.
3. If you miss any shot and leave your opponent safe (hence a "lucky" safe), he/she has the option to pass the shot back to you, similar to a push, except your shot must have been a legal one. Push-outs are not required to be legal hits. If a player chooses to play a "two-way" shot where they would leave you safe in case they miss...well...that's just too bad. They should not be rewarded for missing their shot by getting a safety out of it.

In the same vein, you should not be rewarded with a lucky nine ball shot (including the break).

I think that while this may slow down the game slightly...it serves to:

1. Eliminate "lucky shots" on the nine ball.
2. Eliminate "lucky" safe shots.
3. Forces the shooter to shoot and try to play proper position.

No one should be rewarded for poor play, which includes the "gentleman" I played a couple of weeks ago. Walking up to the table and slamming the balls around because you're in a bad mood does not...and should not...earn you a victory.

Nor should either player be punished by losing a hill/hill match to a nine-on-the-snap in the deciding game.

I think this may serve to elevate the quality of play.
A lot of older players refuse to play this game because of the luck factor. Sure, you can get lucky in the other games, but in nine-ball it seems to have more of an impact on the game's outcome.

This may eliminate some of the bangers and those of us who love to "ride the nine" but I think it would attract better players.

So, what are your thoughts?
 
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I like the APA's version of 9 ball.

It's a variation of straight pool really except the 9 counts for 2 points instead of 1. Players do races based on skill levels.

Although a flawed system the APA is, their 9 ball is the way it should be played. I admire them for combining straight pool like they did.
 
inside_english said:
3. If you miss any shot and leave your opponent safe (hence a "lucky" safe), he/she has the option to pass the shot back to you, similar to a push, except your shot must have been a legal one. Push-outs are not required to be legal hits. If a player chooses to play a "two-way" shot where they would leave you safe in case they miss...well...that's just too bad. They should not be rewarded for missing their shot by getting a safety out of it.
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Nonsense. Use of the two way shot often allows a thoughtful player to play a very difficult shot that would otherwise not be played. Well designed and well-executed two way shots are skillfull, whether or not the ball is made. You are proposing to remove from the game what I believe to be its single most interesting element. The statement that a miss in which you hook your opponent automatically qualifies as lucky is ridiculous. When it's your turn, play it as it lies.

What if someone plays position incorrectly, but the cue ball gets a lucky carom off of another ball and ends up perfect? Do you want to disallow the lucky position? At least this result really is lucky, whereas a well-designed two way shot with a miss and resulting safety is skillful. Think twice before litigating out the luck factor, from which there is no escape in rotation games.

On average, you and your opponents will each get half the luck, but it may deviate from match to match. Over the green felt, the cream always rises to the top, and that's why the superstars of the game seem to win all the tournaments.
 
Your rules will basically destroy the game and make it as boring to watch as 10-ball (which, imho, is a terrible game for spectators).

The beautiful thing about 9-ball is the creativity its less-strict rules encourage- players will try more daring shots, lower percentage shots, even desperate shots that they wouldn't try in most other games- it allows you to see how a top-notch player's mind really works (especially when someone like Efren sinks a shot you never even saw as a possibility).

No nines on the break? Well, let's just take the "big break" out of the game then and then we can all break like Cory Deuel (great player, but no fun to watch break).

You don't like luck? Don't play 9-ball- luck cuts both ways, and sometimes it's going to be in your favor- in the end (in a long enough race) the better player will always win- in a short race, a weaker player has a chance playing even against anyone, and there's nothing wrong with that.

As far as a safety goes, now you're (potentially) penalizing a better player for his ability to control the cue ball and leave himself a potential "out" on a difficult shot.

Sorry, but I don't want to play by your rules.:wink:
 
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I never said to eliminate safeties. I should have been more clear. If the incoming player calls safe then it is allowed.
 
inside_english said:
Nonsense huh?
Thanks for your honesty and thoughtful reply.
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Excuse my harshness. I'm just saying that calling a safety that results from a well-designed two-way shot a "lucky safe" isn't right. Much of your post makes sense, but I've always thought the two-way shot to be nine-ball's greatest fascination, and watching how the very best design them is, at least for me, one of the reasons I attend so many tournaments.

The two-way shot, I'll add, is also, for me, what makes one-pocket so majestic. Protecting the downside thoughtfully while playing offense is one of the skills that the very finest in our game all seem to share.
 
I would think the easiest solution is to call the 9. Eliminating the 2-way shot takes all the fun out of the game, IMO.
 
sjm said:
Nonsense. Use of the two way shot often allows a thoughtful player to play a very difficult shot that would otherwise not be played. Well designed and well-executed two way shots are skillfull, whether or not the ball is made. You are proposing to remove from the game what I believe to be its single most interesting element. The statement that a miss in which you hook your opponent automatically qualifies as lucky is ridiculous. When it's your turn, play it as it lies.

What if someone plays position incorrectly, but the cue ball gets a lucky carom off of another ball and ends up perfect? Do you want to disallow the lucky position? At least this result really is lucky, whereas a well-designed two way shot with a miss and resulting safety is skillful. Think twice before litigating out the luck factor, from which there is no escape in rotation games.

On average, you and your opponents will each get half the luck, but it may deviate from match to match. Over the green felt, the cream always rises to the top, and that's why the superstars of the game seem to win all the tournaments.
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well said.

There's no reason to eliminate the luck factor. It goes both ways!
And if you want, you can always start playing 7 ball rules
 
LAlouie said:
Play a game that requires more skill. That's why you're seeing more 10ball.
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Well, yes and no. Most of the 10 Ball I'm seeing played (Predator 10 Ball Championship, Oscar/Morra, Galveston as I recall, etc. etc.) is played using Texas Express rules. The only differences is perhaps the 10 ball doesn't count on the break and the soft break doesn't work so well in 10 Ball so the guys do break harder. But essentially most of the 10 Ball I see played is really 9 Ball with an extra ball.
 
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I would certainly like to see a reduction in the ways luck can intrude on a 9-ball or 10-ball match. Here are a few comments I wrote in another recent thread that touched on this subject.

No, you can't totally eliminate the luck element, but you can try to minimize it. The purpose of a pool competition should be to identify and reward the person (or persons) who is (are) playing the most skillfully during that event. Excitement for the audience should not be the objective in most competitions; in fact, such excitement sometimes results from ignorance. A three-rail kick safety is beautiful and exciting; a 10-on-the-break for a win is disgusting.

People often argue that "luck evens out," or winning on a lucky shot, such as a slop-in, is so rare among top players that we shouldn't worry about it. Well, luck may even out over a lifetime, but it need not do so in any given match or tournament. And it's the rareness of the lucky shot that makes it so much more critical. If it happened every second shot, then both players in a match would benefit and suffer fairly equally. But when it happens only rarely, it becomes enormous and can really mean the difference between winning and losing.

I'm sure that everyone who has played a lot has both won and lost a ton of matches because of purely lucky shots -- 9-ball or 10-ball on the break or slopping in a key ball. A loss that way is agonizing. A win that way is less than fulfilling. It would be so easy to eliminate some of the game's pernicious luck.​
 
9 Ball isn't broke so it doesn't need fixing. If you want a game that is more challenging then try playing snooker or carombole.
 
Call the 9. If it goes down on the break and it hasn't been called it gets spotted.

A 2 way shot that is missed and leaves you safe could have just as easily went and left the shooter safe, they should be left alone.

Calling a safety allows your opponent too much insight into your thinking and strategy at the table. It's better to leave them guessing. This forces the other player into a more mental approach to the game, like the bluff in poker. "Did he mean to do that?" is the same thought process as "Does he have pocket aces?" and can expose weakness in your opponents game or mental fortitude.

:cool:
 
9-ball is 9-ball, 10-ball is 10-ball. Pick your preference.

I also do not like the slop allowed in 9-ball. To me, there is no reason to have slop in any billiard game played by adults. (I suspect it started because you cannot spot balls on a coin op table, but it might not have anything to do with that.)

But if you are going to play 9-ball, I fully support winning with attempted combinations on the 9. A called combination takes skill.

Hence, because you call ball and pocket in 10-ball, I like 10-ball better.

Heck, I would like "15-ball" on a coin op table -- to get more play time for my money.
 
As others have said, I think you'd be more comfortable playing call 9 ball. I'd disregard the other suggestions though as you wouldn't get many willing opponents to play a totally IMO bastardized version of 9 ball.

If the call 9 ball format leaves you yet unfulfilled, then perhaps consider games of far less luck - 14.1 or one pocket.

Keep 'em rolling downhill, KK9
 
sjm said:
Excuse my harshness. I'm just saying that calling a safety that results from a well-designed two-way shot a "lucky safe" isn't right. Much of your post makes sense, but I've always thought the two-way shot to be nine-ball's greatest fascination, and watching how the very best design them is, at least for me, one of the reasons I attend so many tournaments.

The two-way shot, I'll add, is also, for me, what makes one-pocket so majestic. Protecting the downside thoughtfully while playing offense is one of the skills that the very finest in our game all seem to share.
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I agree with you totally on the 1P aspect...that is after all my favorite game.
But as I mentioned in a later post, the player should call a safe if that his intention.
He should not be allowed, IMO, to be rewarded with a safety if he MISSES his shot.
While intelligent, strategic, thoughtful and perhaps creative...it still "rewards" the player for missing.
 
pro9dg said:
9 Ball isn't broke so it doesn't need fixing. If you want a game that is more challenging then try playing snooker or carombole.
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You have missed my point. But no matter. I do not live by the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" motto anyway, because it suggests that nothing will be improved unless there is a glaring problem.
 
inside_english said:
I agree with you totally on the 1P aspect...that is after all my favorite game.
But as I mentioned in a later post, the player should call a safe if that his intention.
He should not be allowed, IMO, to be rewarded with a safety if he MISSES his shot.
While intelligent, strategic, thoughtful and perhaps creative...it still "rewards" the player for missing.
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How would you account for the 2-way shot then?
 
What you are proposing would be a huge step backward for the popularity of our sport. You would be making the game way more boring to watch. The crowds always react to nine ball breaks and slop shots that fall in the hole.

The rules of nine ball now strongly encourage the lesser players to have more interest in competing.

Then of course you want to keep the rules universal so when the newer players are watching nine ball they can relate to the rules.
 
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