Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM

[JB Cases]

CJ will barbecue Gene. I will empty out on that bet. Even.

If CJ is motivated then Chris will have all he can handle. The last two isn't much weight and CJ doesn't need it. It is more of a position move to mess with CJ's head in my opinion.

Regarding the premise that this would be a match between TOI and no aiming system that would only be true if it was a pure shotmaking contest with no human stroke errors, no nerves in play. Aiming is only one part, the first part, pulling the trigger is the harder part.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

A kitten dies every time you misuse quotation marks.

I just pissed myself.

 

[8pack]

CJ will barbecue Gene. I will empty out on that bet. Even.

If CJ is motivated then Chris will have all he can handle. The last two isn't much weight and CJ doesn't need it. It is more of a position move to mess with CJ's head in my opinion.

Regarding the premise that this would be a match between TOI and no aiming system that would only be true if it was a pure shotmaking contest with no human stroke errors, no nerves in play. Aiming is only one part, the first part, pulling the trigger is the harder part.

I agree Mr Barton...But I wouldn't bet large,you maybe the one getting heated on the coals.

 

[MahnaMahna]

Even Efren admits that every time he wins a One Foul game he "Just Got Lucky"....

I have it from a good source that he actually means that he got lucky because he doesn't have to play by 2 foul rules, they suck.

Ya know, since we are manipulating shit so it favors whatever side I am for.

 

[BeiberLvr]

CJ will barbecue Gene. I will empty out on that bet. Even.

If CJ is motivated then Chris will have all he can handle. The last two isn't much weight and CJ doesn't need it. It is more of a position move to mess with CJ's head in my opinion.

Regarding the premise that this would be a match between TOI and no aiming system that would only be true if it was a pure shotmaking contest with no human stroke errors, no nerves in play. Aiming is only one part, the first part, pulling the trigger is the harder part.

The last part in bold is true, which is why Chris would be the favorite [and no I'm not looking to bet] against CJ.

 

[Straightpool_99]

...................

 

[JB Cases]

I agree Mr Barton...But I wouldn't bet large,you maybe the one getting heated on the coals.

I stand by what I said. CJ is CHAMPION who is battle tested against other champions. This isn't nuthugging but instead just my take on who is the better player by far.

 

[BeiberLvr]

I stand by what I said. CJ is CHAMPION who is battle tested against other champions. This isn't nuthugging but instead just my take on who is the better player by far.

When's the last time he's played a meaningful heads up match? I don't think Chris would have a shot against CJ in his prime, but he's not anymore.

This isn't a knock at CJ by the way. There are quite a few champions: Archer, Strickland, Reyes that can get weight from players today and would be the underdog. It's part of getting older in this game, and when you don't match up as much as you used too, it makes it even harder to come out on top.

 

[JB Cases]

When's the last time he's played a meaningful heads up match? I don't think Chris would have a shot against CJ in his prime, but he's not anymore.

This isn't a knock at CJ by the way. There are quite a few champions: Archer, Strickland, Reyes that can get weight from players today and would be the underdog. It's part of getting older in this game, and when you don't match up as much as you used too, it makes it even harder to come out on top.

I am talking about Gene and CJ not Chris and CJ. But for Chris and CJ if CJ is motivated to practice and be ready then Chris is up against a stone cold champion who has already done everything Chris has done and more. So the question for me isn't when was the last time CJ played a money match, it's how motivated is CJ to get to championship form?

Ask Earl how the older guys play? Ask Efren. Ask Johnny. Nick Varner can still play sporty. This is one sport that you can't count the older players out.

 

[(((Satori)))]

CJ will barbecue Gene. I will empty out on that bet. Even.

If CJ is motivated then Chris will have all he can handle. The last two isn't much weight and CJ doesn't need it. It is more of a position move to mess with CJ's head in my opinion.

Regarding the premise that this would be a match between TOI and no aiming system that would only be true if it was a pure shotmaking contest with no human stroke errors, no nerves in play. Aiming is only one part, the first part, pulling the trigger is the harder part.

I agree with this pots 100%.

Chris is smart and he realizes C.J.'s capabilities. A gambling C.J. is a much different animal than the C.J. we saw in Tunica who was never quite able to get comfortable. Chris is a beast of a player and he is wise and for him to only offer the last two should tell you guys who claim that C.J. is too old a lot. If you are someone who believes that C.J. and Gene would be a better match than C.J. and Chris then you have C.J. underestimated imo.

I would love to see C.J. back in action and I always enjoy watching Chris so I give a yes vote to watch whatever they can agree on.

Big Truck, forget about C.J. and Gene and give us this great matchup between Chris and Wiley.

 

[obclassicut]

bartram vs jj

Jeremy jones took out cj recently. has he played bartram cause that would be more even?

 

[JB Cases]

Jeremy jones took out cj recently. has he played bartram cause that would be more even?

How did they play? JJ seems like he is always willing to play.

 

[SakuJack]

Ask Earl how the older guys play? Ask Efren. Ask Johnny.

But CJ isn't Earl, Efren or Johnny. He played at their level once - from what we've seen lately, he doesn't anymore.

 

[JB Cases]

But CJ isn't Earl, Efren or Johnny. He played at their level once - from what we've seen lately, he doesn't anymore.

What have you seen? A few events. What about him makes you think he can't play that level again?

 

[nrhoades]

Two Shot Shoot Out is definately 10 times more interesting to watch, and there's some Texas streamers that may put on such an event. I could write a 200 page book on how to play "Shoot Out" and it would only take a half a page to describe how to play "One Foul".

Anyone that's played both will agree at some level with this statement. There's really not much strategy playing "One Foul" and there's no other sport that has a "Ball in Hand" rule and it would be equally silly in golf, tennis, football, baseball, hockey, etc......I believe it's a HUGE mistake to endorse a game that you can win on a safety (to get "ball in hand" for an easy run out and not have to make a critical shot), and not have to make the necessary shots. With the lack of popularity of pool in the last 13 years I'm under the impression that most people would agree.....they just may not know why.

CJ, I can see the short-comings of current-day nine-ball, though do you still prefer two-shot/push-out to call-shot/call-safe w/ option? (WPA ten-ball)?

 

[lfigueroa]

Just my opinion, but the game has evolved: the level of play, the strategies, the knowledge base, and the equipment. CJ's game was well-suited for his era and he could do things like TOI and divide the pocket into segments or whatever else he's espousing nowadays.

But like I said, the game, like most other endeavors, has evolved. There are more *great* players; the short stops and even the amateurs are playing at a far higher level; people have watched the Accu-Stats and TAR matches; they have listened to the expert commentary; they've read the books; have a better understanding of the physics of the game; and the tables are tougher.

On this particular point: when you are staring down a long shot, or a difficult cut, or tough position play on a Diamond Pro-Am, you are not cutting the pocket into segments and you are not putting a touch of anything on the ball you don't absolutely have to.

Like I said, the game has moved on. I don't know that CJ could win nowadays, regardless of the rules.

As a side note: as an amateur who CJ woofed at not too long ago I am enjoying a bit of schandenfreude right about now

Lou Figueroa

 

[CreeDo]

CJ won't be on TAR unless Justin sells the business or something.

Long ago when TAR was new they tried to film a ring game and JCIN says CJ was the only guy there
who flat out refused to appear on the stream unless he could get paid for it.
CJ's side is that JCIN's got him confused with someone else and possibly wasn't even there.

See this thread:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4071078&postcount=26

I would be interested (and would pay up to $35-$40) to watch CJ match up in a live stream
with several possible opponents. Someone said his money game is a step above what we've seen recently,
so hopefully the right incentive can be found to bring it out and some other streamer can volunteer to show it.

 

[SakuJack]

What have you seen? A few events. What about him makes you think he can't play that level again?

What makes you think he can?

I'm not ruling out the possibility, but I think lumping him in with players who have all but maintained their level of play from their primes through to the present day is a stretch. It's tough to keep playing well into mid-life and even old age. It's even tougher to actually get back to that level after years away from the game.

 

[prad]

people playing at higher level, really ?

Just my opinion, but the game has evolved: the level of play, the strategies, the knowledge base, and the equipment. CJ's game was well-suited for his era and he could do things like TOI and divide the pocket into segments or whatever else he's espousing nowadays.

But like I said, the game, like most other endeavors, has evolved. There are more *great* players; the short stops and even the amateurs are playing at a far higher level; people have watched the Accu-Stats and TAR matches; they have listened to the expert commentary; they've read the books; have a better understanding of the physics of the game; and the tables are tougher.

On this particular point: when you are staring down a long shot, or a difficult cut, or tough position play on a Diamond Pro-Am, you are not cutting the pocket into segments and you are not putting a touch of anything on the ball you don't absolutely have to.

Like I said, the game has moved on. I don't know that CJ could win nowadays, regardless of the rules.

As a side note: as an amateur who CJ woofed at not too long ago I am enjoying a bit of schandenfreude right about now

Lou Figueroa

I agree that the game is different now, but the fundamentals remain the same. There are a lot of things that experience can teach a player which no book will teach him/her even if it claims to. A book can tell you that 0 degree is a cold temperature, but you'll never know how it feels if you have never experienced it.
Now a days there are a lot of resources available to learn stuff about pool, but in my personal experience just being there taking the heat, watching other players, doing it the 'hard' way makes a huge difference.
As a matter of fact, I think that the level / skill set of players today have gone lower, cuz things come easy to them. If they want to learn how to make shot, there is book about it. They don't have to go to their local pool room and gamble / play with some one who knows is a good bank shot player to learn it. They can learn by reading the book or watching dvd and by playing in their basement. People are getting lazy, they are trying to acquire skills that comes after 100 hours of play time by doing it just for 20 hours and a $40 book. IMO that's just "half learning". I seriously doubt that I will see another Eddie Taylor or Bugs Rucker in my lifetime, cuz that's just not going to happen. May be there is a guy who could be like them, but he is stuck selling cars and never picked up a pool cue cuz pool is not as big as it used to be. Can you name a book that will teach me how to play shape like the great buddy hall ? or how to be as flamboyant as Keith ?? or to be an artist like Efren ? The point is just cuz we have all these "resources" now a days doesn't necessarily mean that a general level of play has increased.

People have different style of play, every one learns differently. After a 8 ball break some people see clusters and others see patterns. Good bank pool players see lines on the table that are never there. So, I don't agree with you saying and I quote "when you are staring down a long shot, or a difficult cut, or tough position play on a Diamond Pro-Am, you are not cutting the pocket into segments...".

I don't understand when you say that Cj's game was well suited for his era ?? that don't make sense to me. Pool fundamentals are still the same, you still got to make ball in the pocket regardless of how you aim it, you still gotta know angles, spins, lines, and various other things. The guy is just teaching what he believe made him a better player, and there is nothing wrong with it.
I don't know if CJ is going to win or loose cuz that's something only he can answer.

 

[JB Cases]

What makes you think he can?

I'm not ruling out the possibility, but I think lumping him in with players who have all but maintained their level of play from their primes through to the present day is a stretch. It's tough to keep playing well into mid-life and even old age. It's even tougher to actually get back to that level after years away from the game.

Um he is not physically handicapped or otherwise prevented from getting into fighting shape.

Mosconi came back after years of retirement to finish second in a world class event with the best players in it.

Mike Lebron and Buddy Hall both won the US Open after 50.