the only person i have ever seen not get *A LOT* better after playing 12/hrs a day is me.
thats pretty good odds imo
thats pretty good odds imo
Pros not telling you everything.....
- Thread starter PistolPat
- Start date
Joey:
"Ya know I luv ya ta bits" (as the Brits would say in a pub). But methinks we're also downplaying the "see no evil, hear no evil" approach to "slipping one in." And I know you're not going to actually deny that takes place on these boards, right Joey?
Aiming system advocates, being on that side on the fence, don't see a problem with it, because "it's getting the word out" afterall. You know, free publicity and all that jazz. Heck, there's nothing wrong with that -- that's capitalism marketing at its finest. Attach a word or phrase to an object, so that it gets eyeballs and eardrums (e.g. "...and we bring you this Lucasi Hybrid match score update for the 2011 Derby City Classic...").
But it was the back-pedaling that got me. The OP wanted to use an example to demonstrate what he meant by "pros being pros precisely because they're holding something back," and he wanted to use an example. This is great -- show by example! I believe in that; I'm listening. But he dropped the "aiming system" bomb. Then, he spends a good portion of the post back-pedaling, stating how he didn't want it to be turned into another aiming system thread, and it was used only as an example. But wait, we're not done yet! To finish with a flourish, this outright pitch was used as a coupe de gras, "In the words of my greatest teacher thus far after he taught me THE aiming system and how easy it was to pocket ANYTHING after he taught me....." It's like stealing aint it?!" Boy, a lot of ground was covered on that one! Tell me that wasn't a Mariano Rivera closer cut-fastball right across the plate?
Do I think pros withhold things / secrets? SURE I DO. And I got news for ya: we all do, in some way/shape/fashion. When we (you and I, Joey) play 1-pocket, am I going to show ya all my moves? Sure I am -- but only after I execute them on ya to show how effective they are. (And yes, after all's said and done, I'll show ya what I was thinking and why I chose that particular move -- but not before that move has first stung.)
Are the amateurs "entitled" to have that pros' knowledge? Hell no. And depending on who that amateur is, we can even make that a "f*ck no!" (Those that whine and complain about pros not sharing "all" their secrets definitely are not even walking on the correct road to deserving them.) What in the h*ll makes an amateur think he/she is entitled to know all the pros secrets? I'll tell ya. Quick fix. Don't want to put the work in to earn it and most importantly, understand it fully. Wants quick and easy satisfaction. Click the fingers, and voila! It's there.
A crystal example of this goes back to that poster that wanted to know which chapter, which page, which paragraph, and finally, which sentence he needs to read in Bob Fancher's Pleasures of Small Motions to get the maximum benefit, rather than reading this small 140-page paperback book (less than the size of today's TV Guide) in its entirety. People like that, and people that accuse the pros of being pros precisely because they don't release everything, are one and the same in my book.
I'll give the shirt off my back to a player that shows not only interest, but INITIATIVE and MOTIVATION to really learn this game. I'd want nothing more than to have that player -- who has earned my respect and trust that he/she will do good for the sport we both love -- to further the knowledge I'd passed on to him/her. I have to be assured, though, that it's not a short-term fad with this person, or otherwise an attempt to end-run hard work to acquire the skills, only to admonish them later with a wave of the hand, "Oh, that was easy." This ain't the Staples red push-button!
There's a nice Thoreau quote about this, but my brain is kind of fried at the moment, and I don't want to misquote it. But I think you know the one I'm referring to.
-Sean
Sean, my friend I have to send you a :clapping: and a :canoodle:. LOL
I don't know if the thread starter had the slipping the old aiming system thing planned or not but you do bring up some good points about the continuity of the aiming thing/slip it under the wire. I still don't know if it was intentional or not. If he was being sly, that's just plain wrong. If he was getting in his points that aiming systems are meaningful and this is the only way he thought he could get by the screening crew, I just don't see that much wrong with it. Personally, I prefer the more direct approach in getting a message out but he doesn't have to be :deadhorse::smash::slap: if that is the case either.
I think this thread has given me impetus for a new thread on aiming systems and I'm going to start one and hope that you will join me. Your perspectives, intelligence and civility are always welcome at my table even if we are on opposing sides of an issue and so far, I haven't found even one issue that you and I are on competely opposite sides.
Your perspectives are always fair and honest and especially civil even when they are riding on my turnip truck.
The purpose of the new thread on aiming systems is to detail why the threads create so much heat. Some acknowledgments on BOTH SIDES of the fence are in order. The proponents, the foes, the antagonists and the naysayers will be invited to extend the olive branch to their opposing posters by making one perspective that they can concede. I will start the thread with the infamous "Aiming Systems - Why the PROBLEMS?". Each person will be invited to make a different statement(s) in their own words that acknowledges the position of the other sides point of view.Any person who chooses to use this thread to incite or to push another person's buttons will be RED REPPED by me. Since, I have never red-repped another poster in my years on this forum, some may be wanting to be first. :grin: but I honestly hope that some of the animosity that has become prevalent on this forum can be nullified and even eliminated. We'll see. (BTW, I don't see any animosity in your posts and you don't make an effort to needle any particular individual other than me (but that's ok :grin
.Thanks again Sean. I wish you were a lot closer to give me that spanking at one pocket that I so richly deserve. See you on the next aiming system thread.
To everyone who chooses to participate, try to make only one statement so that others may participate in the process. Thanks,
JoeyA
the only person i have ever seen not get *A LOT* better after playing 12/hrs a day is me.
thats pretty good odds imo
You are not alone. :grin:
Thanks for that clarification. And it is your final sentence that interests me most: knowing what's possible.
The reason I got hung up in this thread is that I am always fascinated (and amused) when there are claims of 'secrets' to doing something. Or to doing it well or better than others. My favorite is the "secrets of weight loss". Sound familiar?
The kind of mentality suggested by the OP harkens back to the days of the Guilds, when there really were secrets to doing some of the things governed by a particular Guild, e.g. glass blowing, masonry - not Masonry, the art of the patina, etc. That pocket billiards would share qualities of those secretive fraternities is humorous to me.
The bottom line is that, if one were to spend less time on pondering the secrets, and more time on practicing what you do know (cf. sleinen above), you wouldn't need any 'secrets'.
And, if that's the case, then what is the point?
Now, back to your response, and, knowing what is possible. The description of the shot you give, is the sort of thing I was looking for; and, as you say, there are probably techniques that could be applied that would make it easy (or easier) to execute. The principles governing the technique (i.e. the physics involved), however, aren't secret. They've been spelled out many times in many places. One simply has to try them out... over and over...
The only secret, would be in knowing whether what you want to do is even possible. And I contend that anyone can find out that answer.
I keep secrets.......many of them.....about not only pool, but many of life's mysteries.....and I'm not telling you any of them.....ever......unless you show up at my place with a nice cigar and a good scotch.....by the time we hit the end of the bottle, I might tell you something, just maybe....
I would love to agree with this but fact is I have played too much perfect pool to go along with this, Now learning to aim correctly is or has been kept
secret IMO. I never had this result until after I learned the right way to sight and line up my shots
How good does the scotch have to be?
Can we start at Glenlivet, or do we need to step up to MaCallan?
(God I miss drinking Scotch
The things we do to stay married...)
Sean, my friend I have to send you a :clapping: and a :canoodle:. LOL
I don't know if the thread starter had the slipping the old aiming system thing planned or not but you do bring up some good points about the continuity of the aiming thing/slip it under the wire. I still don't know if it was intentional or not. If he was being sly, that's just plain wrong. If he was getting in his points that aiming systems are meaningful and this is the only way he thought he could get by the screening crew, I just don't see that much wrong with it. Personally, I prefer the more direct approach in getting a message out but he doesn't have to be :deadhorse::smash::slap: if that is the case either.
I think this thread has given me impetus for a new thread on aiming systems and I'm going to start one and hope that you will join me. Your perspectives, intelligence and civility are always welcome at my table even if we are on opposing sides of an issue and so far, I haven't found even one issue that you and I are on competely opposite sides.
Your perspectives are always fair and honest and especially civil even when they are riding on my turnip truck.
The purpose of the new thread on aiming systems is to detail why the threads create so much heat. Some acknowledgments on BOTH SIDES of the fence are in order. The proponents, the foes, the antagonists and the naysayers will be invited to extend the olive branch to their opposing posters by making one perspective that they can concede. I will start the thread with the infamous "Aiming Systems - Why the PROBLEMS?". Each person will be invited to make a different statement(s) in their own words that acknowledges the position of the other sides point of view.Any person who chooses to use this thread to incite or to push another person's buttons will be RED REPPED by me. Since, I have never red-repped another poster in my years on this forum, some may be wanting to be first. :grin: but I honestly hope that some of the animosity that has become prevalent on this forum can be nullified and even eliminated. We'll see. (BTW, I don't see any animosity in your posts and you don't make an effort to needle any particular individual other than me (but that's ok :grin
Thanks again Sean. I wish you were a lot closer to give me that spanking at one pocket that I so richly deserve. See you on the next aiming system thread.
To everyone who chooses to participate, try to make only one statement so that others may participate in the process. Thanks,
JoeyA
Joey:
Thank you for not taking my post personally, and for not confusing my pointedness with animosity, which I certainly harbor towards NOONE. As you know, I call people / situations out that I feel, with my being, are just wrong or in bad taste. Will I use some colorful metaphors to enhance my point? You bet.
I would welcome participating in your thread about the plusses / pitfalls of aiming system discussion. I think I have a lot of good input for that topic, as the only time I'll enter one of the aiming system threads, is when I see one of these "just plain wrong" things being committed.
In fact, feel free to cut/paste my entire post above (the Mariano Rivera closer cut-fastball one) as the opener for your new thread, if you think it would help establish a foundation for the purpose of that thread in the first place. (I.e. it shows Exhibit A of "slipping one in" and then back-pedaling, good establishment for the topic of discussion.)
What I can't guarantee, though, is that I'll enter the thread tonight. I had a rough day at work, walking some non-technical, non-English-speaking people over the phone how to get some Cisco routers and switches up on the network to the point where I can connect to it and take over finishing the configuration. Needless to say, after all that articulating-every-word-I-speak-and-being-as-basic-as-I-can-be-so-they-can-understand-me, I'm beat! I'm exhausted, mentally.
Tonight, I'm going to forget about technology. I'm going to hit Iron Willies tonight, and engage my subconscious in some straight pool and one pocket.
"See you" tomorrow, though, in that thread.
Have a great one!
-Sean
This is all so true Joey!
I'm sure you remember when I had my conversation with Hal about 8-10 years ago and IMMEDIATELY improved by 2 balls in 9 ball. (literally, after a 2 hour phone call I could now pot any ball on the table....still couldnt think straight or move the que ball to where it needed to go, but getting the ball to the hole was no longer a problem).
Unfortunately i think i platuead there! lol....
Aiming systems/knowledge pro's have (i had been playing for 5 years before i learned about outside english for cuts), etc can all RAPIDLY get a bangers game to C level pool. After that, Getting to B/A level requires putting the hours in and nothing else IMO.
(((something for you new thread could be Aiming system vs. game.....I think hal's system/cte is best suited for straight pool....8'ball/9'ball requires too many cheating shots/or english/follow/draw to get whitey where you need it and in 1p CTE has almost no value whatsoever...again IMO)))).
I'm sure you remember when I had my conversation with Hal about 8-10 years ago and IMMEDIATELY improved by 2 balls in 9 ball. (literally, after a 2 hour phone call I could now pot any ball on the table....still couldnt think straight or move the que ball to where it needed to go, but getting the ball to the hole was no longer a problem).
Unfortunately i think i platuead there! lol....
Aiming systems/knowledge pro's have (i had been playing for 5 years before i learned about outside english for cuts), etc can all RAPIDLY get a bangers game to C level pool. After that, Getting to B/A level requires putting the hours in and nothing else IMO.
(((something for you new thread could be Aiming system vs. game.....I think hal's system/cte is best suited for straight pool....8'ball/9'ball requires too many cheating shots/or english/follow/draw to get whitey where you need it and in 1p CTE has almost no value whatsoever...again IMO)))).
Sean, my friend I have to send you a :clapping: and a :canoodle:. LOL
I don't know if the thread starter had the slipping the old aiming system thing planned or not but you do bring up some good points about the continuity of the aiming thing/slip it under the wire. I still don't know if it was intentional or not. If he was being sly, that's just plain wrong. If he was getting in his points that aiming systems are meaningful and this is the only way he thought he could get by the screening crew, I just don't see that much wrong with it. Personally, I prefer the more direct approach in getting a message out but he doesn't have to be :deadhorse::smash::slap: if that is the case either.
I think this thread has given me impetus for a new thread on aiming systems and I'm going to start one and hope that you will join me. Your perspectives, intelligence and civility are always welcome at my table even if we are on opposing sides of an issue and so far, I haven't found even one issue that you and I are on competely opposite sides.
Your perspectives are always fair and honest and especially civil even when they are riding on my turnip truck.
The purpose of the new thread on aiming systems is to detail why the threads create so much heat. Some acknowledgments on BOTH SIDES of the fence are in order. The proponents, the foes, the antagonists and the naysayers will be invited to extend the olive branch to their opposing posters by making one perspective that they can concede. I will start the thread with the infamous "Aiming Systems - Why the PROBLEMS?". Each person will be invited to make a different statement(s) in their own words that acknowledges the position of the other sides point of view.Any person who chooses to use this thread to incite or to push another person's buttons will be RED REPPED by me. Since, I have never red-repped another poster in my years on this forum, some may be wanting to be first. :grin: but I honestly hope that some of the animosity that has become prevalent on this forum can be nullified and even eliminated. We'll see. (BTW, I don't see any animosity in your posts and you don't make an effort to needle any particular individual other than me (but that's ok :grin
Thanks again Sean. I wish you were a lot closer to give me that spanking at one pocket that I so richly deserve. See you on the next aiming system thread.
To everyone who chooses to participate, try to make only one statement so that others may participate in the process. Thanks,
JoeyA
I think I can tell by this post that you did not order Stan Shuffett's Pro One/CTE aiming video? Am I right on that?
How good does the scotch have to be?
Can we start at Glenlivet, or do we need to step up to MaCallan?
(God I miss drinking Scotch
I'm cheap......don't care about brands, just taste.....if it's good, it can be any price....if you are man enough to make that drive down, I'll drink whatever you bring :grin:
Don't forget the cigars :wink:
Ha! If the mothership ever calls me back to your part of the world again, it'll be a done deal. (I used to be in DFW every few years, ah, but the times they are a changin'.) But I would be flying, not driving that far.
I'd need help with the cigars, tho, as I don't smoke and wouldn't know where to begin. I'm sure it's like figuring out what you like in Scotch, a wonderful experience.
You bring up a good point about Hal Houle's CTE and the way he taught it. In years past I noticed that MOST, if not ALL Hal Houle students could pocket balls EXTREMELY WELL, especially shots that looked "difficult" but their cue ball was flying all over the place and they frequently had diffiicult shots to shoot. I figured that if the Hal Houle CTEers out there couldn't beat me, then I probably didn't want to invest much too much time with it. It wasn't until I became friends with Stan Shuffett that I realized he had gone a lot further with understanding CTE and had additional pieces of the puzzle that Hal never shared with me. Originally, I tried CTE as Hal taught me and it was all right but for the most part, it required some instinctual adjustments. Stan's Pro One/CTE is very finite and while some people have trouble using it to it's fullest capabilities, I think that some "get it" and will be able to use it right away. Others, IF THEY CHOOSE TO, will need to get with someone who can consistently use it to show them what they are doing wrong. I was lucky enough to get a one on one lesson from Stan on Pro One/CTE and it sunk in after a few hours. :grin:
Pro One/CTE is NOT the HOLY GRAIL or the SILVER BULLET but it can and will help some people to aim better. Unfortunately, it takes more than just good aiming techniques to run a rack or make a difficult shot. Now you've got me talking about aiming systems. WTH? What is it with you Jimmy? :grin::grin:
Stan's Pro One/CTE doesn't prohibit you from using English, draw, follow et cetera to get shape and play patterns.
Banks
Banned
I think part of it is some aren't so inclined to give away knowledge for free or to those that they just don't want to give it to.. I'm sure we all see somebody else now and again that seems to be doing things the wrong way. Do we really want to try helping them out at our own expense? And as pros, after having gone through as much work as they have, do they really want to go out of their way to help somebody if they even have the patience from being bombarded with questions at every turn?
There are a lot of smalls things that can be done to make it easier to pocket a ball, many working in their own circumstances, but there are very few things (pretty much just specialized) that one would rarely learn on their own after much practice.
Just my 2 cents..
I havent seen it.....i havent touched the table in 6 months, but plan to restart soon (it became the storage area, lol....finally have that all cleaned up!).
Although I have heard plenty of stories like that, in my entire pool-playing life, I have only encountered two people that fit that description.
One was a peer of mine (age-wise) who thought more of his game than was really warranted, and just wanted to be an ass; more to others than to me, because we shot about the same speed.
The other was an older pool-hall owner/operator who would only play one-pocket, and only for more $$ than any of us had. He was quite the player back in the 50s (I hear). But by the late 60s and into the 70s, he had pretty much closed up shop. I was just a kid, and didn't have enough money to get him to play. I finally just quit asking.
I thought then, as I do now, that it wasn't that he had any 'secrets' that I needed to know to play better, but I felt that I could have fed off his experience and style in the way that he managed his game, and that might have made me a better player.
Where can I buy some of that? Is there a "Desire for Dummies" book out there?
I agree that's a big one. If you have it, then you are going to practice and learn, and the other pieces will start falling into place. I know I lack it not that I don't want to. Life is just too busy with other things that I want to be good at and enjoy.
Just accept it for who you are, for what you are willing to compromise. I have my moments of brilliance, along with those other moments of befuddlement, and I've come to accept my current skill level through what I have learned and the sliver of talent I have in my little finger. I'm happy with how I shoot but I'm not willing to take it to another level through hours of practice by sacrificing other things that bring me happiness. And I just don't have the God-gifted natural talent that some guys have.
Each person is different and even some little "secret" doesn't mean that player is going to be able to execute it. If there was some "get rich" scheme in helping all become better players, then it would have been leaked by now to the masses. There's not a good ol' boys club with all of the top players; they're too sharky with each other to hold in a secret.
I can't believe how many posts there have been in this thread that have nothing to do with the posters original comment. It seems to me that the discussion was meant to be whether or not pros hid there secrets, not about aiming systems, or what made you a good player.
I don't know any pros, so I can't really comment, but it would not surprise me at all if they did keep certain things secret.
I don't know any pros, so I can't really comment, but it would not surprise me at all if they did keep certain things secret.
Really folks, if you've been around the game for a while you've likely accumulated a few shots that aren't widely known. I guess you could call them secrets. I've known several pros and I was able to show them shots they've never seen befiore (and I'm a rank amatuer).
I'll be waiting for the professionals to start their own thread about those slippery amatuers that won't give up any of their own secrets. I know it's coming.
I'll be waiting for the professionals to start their own thread about those slippery amatuers that won't give up any of their own secrets. I know it's coming.
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Do you think that many of the top players in the world bought Freddy's book, Brumback's DVD's, or go to Dr. Dave's site? Maybe a
couple, but I'd bet the vast majority haven't. Why? Probably because they were at the pool hall putting in those hours and getting to
the highest level they could the good ol' fashioned way, by playing...alot.
That being said, we all have flashes of brilliance when we play - we all know what it's like to get in that "zone" where we play incredibly
good for a session or two not missing a ball or position, but we can't maintain that consistency like the pros do. Why can we all play
great, but just for that small amount of time? Did we discover a secret for that small amount of time, but forgot it immediately after?
NO...we all have that capacity to play at that highest gear given we have the talent and knowledge behind it, but it all comes down to
consistency. Pros are generally more talented and play more, therefore they're more consistent. IMO...that's all it is -
consistency.
A perfect example is Shane's break. It mystifies many... If he wrote a book about how to do it, I guarantee it would sell like hot cakes.
Why? because people would rather buy the book instead of putting in the likely MASSIVE amount of hours of practice that Shane put
into perfecting that break and becoming so consistent with it. Is his break complicated and/or magical? No. He does a few things slightly different, but
there's nothing crazy about it. He's just a very talented individual and worked hard to get consistent with it. That's the bottom
line...no big secret.
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