Pros not telling you everything.....

[Blackjack]

No matter how much pool knowledge you possess, it is useless if you do not have the skill or the ability to apply it to your game. It is also useless if if you do not possess the composure to recall that information in order to apply it.

I can show somebody how to run proper patterns and shot sequence in 14.1, but that does not mean that the student will run 100 balls. The information has be digested, and that knowledge has to be trusted before, during, and after it is applied. The player has to be committed to developing that knowledge on a daily basis, and determined to stick with that development process despite setbacks and disappointments.

The players that jump those hurdles and crash through those brick walls and make it out to the other side are the ones that realize that the hard work and dedication it takes to succeed in this game costs 100 times more than whatever you've paid for the accumulation of the knowledge.

 

[irock]

Have you seen KingCobra's work as a table mechanic, he is definately a pro, just as much as pro poolplayers are on a pooltable, and he has a treasure chest full of secrets that he shares sometimes, just saying.

 

[swest]

It's clear why you're trying to backpedal on your original post:

This thread MAY catch some heat but it's not in ANY way speaking on behalf of all pros or experienced players....it's just a truth with some I have met...

I was reading an article from Roger Long ( certified Instructor as well as columnist for AZ ) about CTE ( This isnt about CTE ) and his statement in there about how Hal Houle's claims of Pros using this method and the reason they do not admit it to any of us is because WE the " regular " pool player are seen as the enemy. Again this has NOTHING to do with ANY aiming system/s the pros use...it is just to confirm what is true about the statement of pros keeping what they know secret from the rest of the pool community. The point is it's NOT true....but yet again it IS true... Not true in the sense that we arent seen as the enemy at all, just some are seen as undeserving of the knowledge that they all have earned on their own through their own trials and tribulations. TRUE in the sense that there are a LOT of secrets they keep from us. It IS very much a secret society of pool knoewledge, it's just a simple fact. If in their eyes they like your personality and see that you have a desire to play better...they will assist you by revealing some of their secrets...sometimes even without you asking for it. I have LUCKILY come across some great pro and top tier players who have greatly assisted me in my game and most assuredly boosted my game up beyond those around me who have been playing seriously a LOT longer than I have by bestowing knowledge upon me that I had NO idea about until they revealed it to me that very moment. And the truth is...a lot of it IS kept as a secret..how do I know?? Because I was instructed not to reveal anything that was to taught me as well from ALL of them..........In the words of my greatest teacher thus far after he taught me THE aiming system and how easy it was to pocket ANYTHING after he taught me....." It's like stealing aint it?! ".....My reply...." Just a look of astonishment back at him "....He just smiled back.

(emphasis added to demonstrate that you were referring to all Pros)

with statements like:

It's not at all surprising that this thread has definietly been misinterpreted by the masses....to the handful that UNDERSTOOD the thread from the get go, I thank you for your appropriate posts according to the orginal post of this thread which is...say it with me now everyone...THAT SOME PROS DON"T LIKE TO SHARE ANY KNOWLEDGE THAT THEY HAVE ACQUIRED FROM TIME SPENT AT THE TABLE. This has nothing to do with talent or a secret that will make a champion out of anyone...it's just simple information that to a pro/top player is a secret and therefore chooses not to share with the the general audience.....for what reason would they keep their so called secrets? Its anyone's guess...but one thing IS for sure is that this fact is common and goes on till this day whether ANY of you choose to believe it or not....

If you had constrained your sample space in your original post to 'Some Pros who don't like to share any knowledge that they have acquired', then there would have been no discussion.

 

[JoeyA]

And I'm sure if they had all the pool secrets ever discovered, the vast majority would still never become a champion, either.

Fatboy pretty much nailed it - natural ability, coupled with plenty of experience makes a champion.

Yes, but that's not what the thread is all about.

This thread is about the fact that professional players withhold information about how they do certain things in the game of pool. (that's what we call "secrets". :wink:

 

[swest]

Can someone please give me an example of a shot that requires 'secret' knowledge for its correct execution? I don't want the secret, mind you, just the shot...

Please avoid any examples that touch on any aspect of aiming (e.g. CTE, or its ilk).

Thanks.

 

[Snapshot9]

Example

When the cue ball is frozen to an object ball.

 

[sfleinen]

It's clear why you're trying to backpedal on your original post:

[...]

(emphasis added to demonstrate that you were referring to all Pros)

with statements like:

[...]

If you had constrained your sample space in your original post to 'Some Pros who don't like to share any knowledge that they have acquired', then there would have been no discussion.

I agree. But of course, we're all a bunch of bozos for calling him out on the over-generalizations, the not-so-veiled sales pitch for a particular aiming system, and the obvious notion that pros are pros precisely because they know they have something others don't, and want to keep it that way.

There's a lot to be said about:

• talent (whether born or grown-from-a-spark)
• finding that "one something" that personally breaks you through to the next level of player -- whether it's instruction or finding something on your own
• finding that right environment that helps you grow to be the best you can be (i.e. it helps that Dennis Hatch grew up as a pool player around folks like Larry Hubbart, Mike Sigel, Danny DiLiberto, etc. -- greatness fosters greatness)
• practice, experience
• desire

That last one is one of the most important. We all say "I wish I could play like that," or "I desire to be the best player I can possibly be." But really, do you? Saying it, meaning it, and actually doing something about it are three different things.

Pros may have a secret or two concerning what *they* think are the things that make them the level of player they are, but what's the possibility that they're overlooking something from the list above? I'd say there's a good possibility.

Let me ask you guys this: how many of you go to a pool hall, and actually work on some aspect of your game? How about your break? We're oh-so-fond of lathering the praise on Shane for his formidable break, but how many of you are willing to put as much time into it as Shane does? I've seen Shane work a solid HOUR on his break alone. Racking the balls, breaking them, raking and racking them up again, breaking them, raking/racking them again... ad nauseum. And he's not just whacking at the balls, either. I've watched him finagle with his grip, move the cue ball fractions of an inch each time, etc.

How many of you work on your position play? Do you set up shots that you pooched in earlier matches, and repeat shooting them the proper way until you'll never again make the original mistake you did?

Or do you just throw balls out on the table, and try to run them to impress the railbirds?

You see, everything's relative. Good focused work in, good results out. Garbage in, garbage out.

-Sean

 

[Blackjack]

Garbage in, garbage out.

-Sean

That about covers it all.

 

[swest]

When the cue ball is frozen to an object ball.

If the 'secret' has to do with the rule that applies, then I will refer to the World Standardized Rules, rule #3.38... not a secret.

If the 'secret' has to do with the path the cue ball will take if a push shot is executed, then I will refer to:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/technical_proofs/new/TP_A-15.pdf
or
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1996-02.pdf

... not a secret.

If the 'secret' has to do with your ability to throw the object ball left or right (due to accentuated cut-induced-throw), I would normally refer to information found in Koehler's "Science of Pocket Billiards", or one of Byrne's books, but I don't have them with me and can't cite chapter and verse; instead I will refer to:

http://www.billiardworld.com/frozball.htm

... not much of a secret.

If the 'secret' is something else, then I'll need some clarification about the nature of the shot beyond what was given.

 

[swest]

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There's a lot to be said about:

• talent (whether born or grown-from-a-spark)
• finding that "one something" that personally breaks you through to the next level of player -- whether it's instruction or finding something on your own
• finding that right environment that helps you grow to be the best you can be (i.e. it helps that Dennis Hatch grew up as a pool player around folks like Larry Hubbart, Mike Sigel, Danny DiLiberto, etc. -- greatness fosters greatness)
• practice, experience
• desire

That last one is one of the most important. We all say "I wish I could play like that," or "I desire to be the best player I can possibly be." But really, do you? Saying it, meaning it, and actually doing something about it are three different things.
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-Sean

tap, tap, tap...

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[Banks]

Can someone please give me an example of a shot that requires 'secret' knowledge for its correct execution? I don't want the secret, mind you, just the shot...

Please avoid any examples that touch on any aspect of aiming (e.g. CTE, or its ilk).

Thanks.

Sure.. the 'twist' bank shot where the double-kiss is a guarantee unless you know the way to execute it.

I had to poke around until I found somebody that could explain to me how the shot was executed.. and then I found that was the easy part.. I gave up on trying to get this bank down (though I still want to practice it sometimes).

...

I think Joey has this thread owned.. there are so many pieces to this question. Things that one takes for granted in their game can be something that's been holding back another's game. It also depends upon the willingness and ability of the 'student' to learn.

When somebody asks, 'How can I break better?' or 'Help me make more balls.' What are people suppose to say? Is there one right answer? I've got several different things I do for different shots. I figured a way to make awkward shots much more often without much effort, but my friends just didn't seem to get it when I tried to show them or their lack of proper execution just didn't make is appealing. Can you teach someone how to power draw easily and with control when they can't even do a stop shot most of the time?

I think one of the reasons a lot of the upper players show things while they are playing is because it is much easier to do so that way. You have the shot set up in a regular game, all you have to do is a little explaining without having to pull a random shot to show from memory.

When I started posting on here, there was a disagreement as to whether spin could be transfered. I wasn't that good, but I still knew that it could be, while some others said it couldn't or was negligible. I use that to recalculate my banks for an easier shot, but some people thought it was voodoo or just don't know how useful it can be (and with some, it just won't sink in until they stumble into it again on their own one day).

The way I've learned is from trying to play better players, watching every player to see what they do or what happens when they do things, and by trying to 'fix' what I do wrong.. it wouldn't exactly be a snap to just dump all of that on another player and have them grasp it. And I'm not even that good, so I can't imagine how a pro would feel about having that expected of them..

 

[JoeyA]

I really don't know if you are being serious, or just trying to push someones buttons.???In the case of you being serious, have you read the whole thread?? Do you really just not get it?? Take the shot you quoted. Sure, today it is not much of a secret, it can easily be found on the internet and in books. But, think a little.... do you think that the authors devised those methods?? They revealed one of the secrets! Do you really think EVERYTHING to be known about pool is in some book or can be found on the internet?? There still are a lot of "secrets", or "knowledge" that a few have that is not passed on readily. And, certainly, not to every John Doe that bothers to ask! Heck, even I, at my limited abilities, know stuff that I have never seen published. If I do, then you better believe the pros do too!

If you ask properly, and to the right people, and show yourself worthy in their eyes, maybe, just maybe, they will share some stuff with you. No one is saying that it will make you a pro. It won't. But, it will get you a little farther along that path. But, as has been mentioned a number of times already, along with that knowledge, you have to put in a large number of hours to make it a worthwhile part of your game. And, you have to be open-minded enough to be able to take that little bit of knowledge, and use it "out of the box". Not just as described, but understand the concept of it, and be able to take the concept to another application.

Good players regularly go on the road with TOP PLAYERS for a few months and come back TOP PLAYERS. It's because the "SECRETS" have been revealed to them. LOL :killingme:

While the original poster did slip in the code word for let's get those guys, ("aiming system"), I don't really believe he meant to incite anyone.

It's getting so rough on here that we may have to vote on banning the words, "aiming system", and "SECRETS". :scratchhead::rotflmao1:

 

[swest]

I really don't know if you are being serious, or just trying to push someones buttons.???In the case of you being serious, have you read the whole thread?? Do you really just not get it?? Take the shot you quoted. Sure, today it is not much of a secret, it can easily be found on the internet and in books. But, think a little....
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I'm completely serious; and, anyway, whose buttons would I be pushing?

Yes, I've read the whole thread. And, yes, I think I get it completely.

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There still are a lot of "secrets", or "knowledge" that a few have that is not passed on readily.

and... I am asking for examples of shots that require 'secret' knowledge to execute. And, preferably, shots that actually come up in games often enough to warrant special attention.

I don't think that there are many, if any. And, if there are shots in that category how would knowing how to make them make a difference with the other 99.99%?

 

[master9baller]

response to pistol

Heres an example...say you didnt know how to power draw the ball. you had no access to anything to teach you except you and your own discoveries on the felt.....lets say that it takes you xxx amount of dollars for table time till one day when you were testing every damn thing in the world and BAM you figured out how to do it...after how many hours days and months of trying and xxx amount money spent as well as pushing your frustrations to its limits you FINALLY know how to power draw...it has become YOUR little secret.....next day you see some new kid trying to do what you NOW know how to do....Are you you just gonna walk up to him and show him how to do it just like that without that kid working hard FIRST himself so that he can earn that knowledge??? I'm a nice guy but I aint nice and dumb.....I would hint to someone how to do something but never right out deal all teh info unless I liked the person and I saw them struggling JUSt as bad as I had with whatever I was trying to learn.... And that's the point Im getting across...Pros have many " secrets " that they arent telling you cuz you have to work hard to earn that knowledge yourself...

I agree that it takes time (to practice) and money as well. How many great pros had a family owned pool hall, another family member who was pro or nearly pro speed or just spent time learning from other great players.

For me, in my area, I really haven't had access to greatly talented players to learn from. What changed things for me was owning a table and building up my game one piece at a time.

I have utilized many books and DVD's, still looking for great information/instruction for an advanced player. At this point there isn't too much more to be learned, just mastering everything to my maximal ability. I've been thinking of brushing up on 2+3 rail kicking, but I have that down fairly well anyway. Thinking of learnig 1 pocket play, some players around here gamble with that.

The biggest issues are finding my motivation and quality nearby events that challenge me, or persons to lockup with.

If somebody wants to improve or learn something from me it's $20 a set, with their appropriate handicap:grin:

 

[justadub]

Forgive me, but if any specific shot required a "secret" to execute, why do you expect to get an example of it here? After all, by definition, it wouldn't be a "secret"?

Maybe the concept of you request is too deep for me.

 

[swest]

Sure.. the 'twist' bank shot where the double-kiss is a guarantee unless you know the way to execute it.

I had to poke around until I found somebody that could explain to me how the shot was executed.. and then I found that was the easy part.. I gave up on trying to get this bank down (though I still want to practice it sometimes).

Thanks for that response.

Could you give me a little more to go on, with respect to the setup? Object ball frozen to the rail? Target pocket less than a diamond away?

 

[swest]

Forgive me, but if any specific shot required a "secret" to execute, why do you expect to get an example of it here? After all, by definition, it wouldn't be a "secret"?

Maybe the concept of you request is too deep for me.

My original request assumes that there is a difference between the setup and its goal, and the execution of the shot that will achieve the goal.

It's the execution that's a secret, right?

Perhaps you're suggesting that it would be against the secrecy rules to even reveal that a given setup requires some sort of secret technique.

For example, I might cite the example of the cue ball on the head spot, and the object ball frozen to the long rail at the diamond just south of the side pocket, and the goal being to pocket the object ball into the corner pocket closest to it.

The technique used to pocket that ball might be seen as 'secret' by some, no? It being somewhat non-intuitive. Nevertheless, I give away no secret by offering the setup.

That's what I'm asking for.

 

[Banks]

Thanks for that response.

Could you give me a little more to go on, with respect to the setup? Object ball frozen to the rail? Target pocket less than a diamond away?

If I remember it correctly, it would be something like a dead-on bank that's close enough to the rail to cause a double-hit at the angle the shot is set up on. After doing a little research, I think there may be 2 ways of hitting such shots with getting the double kiss, but each require a specific way of hitting the ball, as the english of mere mortals will not appease the pool gods..

Maybe an equal-angle bank that's about a half-diamond up and barely off the rail.. I think.. I'm just taking a guess at the moment.

But there are definitely things that can be done that make shots easier.. heck, a few of those basic things I got out of mosconi's little book. To some, they're no-brainers, to others they can change the game quite a bit.. kinda like his help for lining up carom shots. Sometimes you know things happen, but finding out why can shed quite a bit of light on what's now more possible.

 

[sfleinen]

Good players regularly go on the road with TOP PLAYERS for a few months and come back TOP PLAYERS. It's because the "SECRETS" have been revealed to them. LOL :killingme:

While the original poster did slip in the code word for let's get those guys, ("aiming system"), I don't really believe he meant to incite anyone.

It's getting so rough on here that we may have to vote on banning the words, "aiming system", and "SECRETS". :scratchhead::rotflmao1:

Joey:

"Ya know I luv ya ta bits" (as the Brits would say in a pub). But methinks we're also downplaying the "see no evil, hear no evil" approach to "slipping one in." And I know you're not going to actually deny that takes place on these boards, right Joey?

Aiming system advocates, being on that side on the fence, don't see a problem with it, because "it's getting the word out" afterall. You know, free publicity and all that jazz. Heck, there's nothing wrong with that -- that's capitalism marketing at its finest. Attach a word or phrase to an object, so that it gets eyeballs and eardrums (e.g. "...and we bring you this Lucasi Hybrid match score update for the 2011 Derby City Classic...").

But it was the back-pedaling that got me. The OP wanted to use an example to demonstrate what he meant by "pros being pros precisely because they're holding something back," and he wanted to use an example. This is great -- show by example! I believe in that; I'm listening. But he dropped the "aiming system" bomb. Then, he spends a good portion of the post back-pedaling, stating how he didn't want it to be turned into another aiming system thread, and it was used only as an example. But wait, we're not done yet! To finish with a flourish, this outright pitch was used as a coupe de gras, "In the words of my greatest teacher thus far after he taught me THE aiming system and how easy it was to pocket ANYTHING after he taught me....." It's like stealing aint it?!" Boy, a lot of ground was covered on that one! Tell me that wasn't a Mariano Rivera closer cut-fastball right across the plate?

Do I think pros withhold things / secrets? SURE I DO. And I got news for ya: we all do, in some way/shape/fashion. When we (you and I, Joey) play 1-pocket, am I going to show ya all my moves? Sure I am -- but only after I execute them on ya to show how effective they are. (And yes, after all's said and done, I'll show ya what I was thinking and why I chose that particular move -- but not before that move has first stung.)

Are the amateurs "entitled" to have that pros' knowledge? Hell no. And depending on who that amateur is, we can even make that a "f*ck no!" (Those that whine and complain about pros not sharing "all" their secrets definitely are not even walking on the correct road to deserving them.) What in the h*ll makes an amateur think he/she is entitled to know all the pros secrets? I'll tell ya. Quick fix. Don't want to put the work in to earn it and most importantly, understand it fully. Wants quick and easy satisfaction. Click the fingers, and voila! It's there.

A crystal example of this goes back to that poster that wanted to know which chapter, which page, which paragraph, and finally, which sentence he needs to read in Bob Fancher's Pleasures of Small Motions to get the maximum benefit, rather than reading this small 140-page paperback book (less than the size of today's TV Guide) in its entirety. People like that, and people that accuse the pros of being pros precisely because they don't release everything, are one and the same in my book.

I'll give the shirt off my back to a player that shows not only interest, but INITIATIVE and MOTIVATION to really learn this game. I'd want nothing more than to have that player -- who has earned my respect and trust that he/she will do good for the sport we both love -- to further the knowledge I'd passed on to him/her. I have to be assured, though, that it's not a short-term fad with this person, or otherwise an attempt to end-run hard work to acquire the skills, only to admonish them later with a wave of the hand, "Oh, that was easy." This ain't the Staples red push-button!

There's a nice Thoreau quote about this, but my brain is kind of fried at the moment, and I don't want to misquote it. But I think you know the one I'm referring to.

-Sean