Pros turning their backs on English?

Blackball75

Blackball75

Blackball75
Silver Member
An industry insider I spoke to recently told me that some of the top billiards pros are seeking to minimize the use of English in their game, perhaps eradicating it completely. He said such a goal was possible if they were able to play position with a very high degree of accuracy.

I believe he was talking about pool, rather than snooker, the latter which I believe tends to require greater use of English (side) to play at the high level?

Any comments?
 
Why not shoot the messenger?? He is just as guilty as this crazy idea posted from " an industry insider."
 
Blackball75 said:
An industry insider I spoke to recently told me that some of the top billiards pros are seeking to minimize the use of English in their game, perhaps eradicating it completely. He said such a goal was possible if they were able to play position with a very high degree of accuracy.

I believe he was talking about pool, rather than snooker, the latter which I believe tends to require greater use of English (side) to play at the high level?

Any comments?
Click to expand...

Minimize yes, but eradicate? Not even close to a possibility.

I guess the idea, for games like straight pool, 8-ball, and 9-ball, (nobody would claim this about 1pocket, I don't think) is that if you plan your patterns well enough, and always leave exactly the perfect angle on every ball, you should never really need side to get perfect on the next ball.

But it's a load of BS. There are a lot of layouts where, while there may be a perfect position you could get on a ball which would leave no need for side, the vastly higher-percentage thing to do is go for the less demanding position, and use some spin on the next shot. Further, even if that weren't the case, nobody gets perfect on every ball. Nobody comes even close on that goal. Watch the best players in the world play 9-ball, and you'll see they continuously get a tiny bit (or sometimes quite a bit) out of line and take minor (or sometimes major) corrective action on the next shot to try to get back in line.

The grain of truth is that the better your speed control and pattern conceptualization get, the less side you have to use, because you play for the right angle where a "plain ball" will get you a good angle on your next shot. So working on controlling the ball and leaving those angles such that you don't need as much english is a good thing for your game; it simplifies things and promotes consistency. Also, anyone who knows pool will tell you that if you do have an angle such that you don't need side, don't use it.

But striving to actually eliminate the use of side spin? Futile and counter-productive.

-Andrew
 
why would you ever use english if you didnt need it? i don't think this is really anything new. moving around the table with slight angles is always easier than using english.
 
Bank players well one one Bank player I know who uses very little english banks the balls better than anyone I have ever seen period.


Other than him I'm with Donny Mills(hey I spelled his name right!!!:smile:)
 
Blackball75 said:
An industry insider I spoke to recently told me that some of the top billiards pros are seeking to minimize the use of English in their game, perhaps eradicating it completely. He said such a goal was possible if they were able to play position with a very high degree of accuracy.

I believe he was talking about pool, rather than snooker, the latter which I believe tends to require greater use of English (side) to play at the high level?

Any comments?
Click to expand...

English is the "devil" you sell yourself to in order to do things simply not possible without it.

There have been players who have tried this. I remember reading something Shawn Putnam wrote when he was excited about finding a better way to play for himself by reducing english to minimal. He found a more reliable game.

If every rail, every table, every cushion, every cloth, every climate, every light, every cue, every tip, every ball, and every chalk were exactly the same, then yes - players could play position to such as level they might not need side spin very much. In fact, a lot of side spin we put on balls could be replaced just by stroking high or low, firmer or softer.

However, who can do that when every table and condition is different? Pool is not a game of perfect, even for players at the highest level. Every shot corrects the last positional mistake within tolerances until the game is finally over. English allows for corrections.

I will say that the players who can stick closer to the center of the ball will find themselves playing a much simpler game than those who go to the edges. Pool is infinitely more difficult when the tip reaches the outer limilts.

Chris
 
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jdxprs said:
why would you ever use english if you didnt need it? i don't think this is really anything new. moving around the table with slight angles is always easier than using english.
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This is absolutely the crux of the matter here.

The less side-spin you have to use the better off you are. If you can control your speed well you can work the angles you have and move the cue ball in to positions where the natural angle is what you want and can use. And on any cut shot, draw and follow will change the path the cue ball takes after contact with the ob, so a player can work the cb quite a bit without using english.

Sure, there will always be times when spinning to the right or left will be necessary but a player should strive to keep those to a minimum imo.
 
Blackball75 said:
An industry insider I spoke to recently told me that some of the top billiards pros are seeking to minimize the use of English in their game, perhaps eradicating it completely. He said such a goal was possible if they were able to play position with a very high degree of accuracy.

I believe he was talking about pool, rather than snooker, the latter which I believe tends to require greater use of English (side) to play at the high level?

Any comments?
Click to expand...

It's not new. A top tour pro told me something similar in the early nineties. Basically he said that he uses top and bottom to get position over 95% of the time and avoids sidespin if at all possible.

I've found that if I get in a slump a lot of times it's because I have gotten too casual with using english and if I go back to forcing myself to only use top and bottom I work my way back out of the slump pretty quickly.

~rc
 
sixpack said:
It's not new. A top tour pro told me something similar in the early nineties. Basically he said that he uses top and bottom to get position over 95% of the time and avoids sidespin if at all possible.

I've found that if I get in a slump a lot of times it's because I have gotten too casual with using english and if I go back to forcing myself to only use top and bottom I work my way back out of the slump pretty quickly.

~rc
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Mosconi preached the same, use minimal english, stay close to the center of the ball.........
 
Blackball75 said:
I believe he was talking about pool, rather than snooker, the latter which I believe tends to require greater use of English (side) to play at the high level?

Any comments?
Click to expand...

Gotta comment on that statement there being absurd, snooker in no way requires more english play then rotation pool.

I have gotta to a point in my game where I notice a reduction in the amount of siding I use on alot of shots. It all comes from playing the proper angle on balls and better patterns that allow for a more simple shape play game.

Will you ever remove english completely? Of course not, there are countless times when you need to use the spin to get the desired result and the player is going to do what they need to do.
 
One of the biggest differences I've noticed between highly skilled players, like pros, and schmucks like me is that pros tend to use more English, not less. They'll work the white ball around the rails using running spin where lesser players will use speed. In 9-ball especially, I think any pro who didn't use English would be toast. Mosconi mostly played 14.1, where the cue ball generally has to travel much shorter distances to get shape.
 
sixpack said:
It's not new. A top tour pro told me something similar in the early nineties. Basically he said that he uses top and bottom to get position over 95% of the time and avoids sidespin if at all possible.

I've found that if I get in a slump a lot of times it's because I have gotten too casual with using english and if I go back to forcing myself to only use top and bottom I work my way back out of the slump pretty quickly.

~rc
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It's not new, but people should understand it's also not true. I don't know which top pro you're referring to, but simply watching video of the top pros reveals that while you do frequently hear someone making a claim like the one above (95% of shots without side-spin), those claims are always wildly off the mark.

Great players (world class) might only use side spin on 25% of their shots. For us mere mortals, I would bet it's usually over 50%. There's no human being on the planet who can play winning 9-ball with such extreme control that they can stick to the center axis on 95% of shots. That means while running a 5-pack, you'd only stray off the center axis on 2 shots. No matter who you're talking about, that's a wild exaggeration. I'd bet that regardless of what the player may claim, it's actually more than 10 shots, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it was more than 20.

-Andrew
 
Blackball75 said:
An industry insider I spoke to recently told me that some of the top billiards pros are seeking to minimize the use of English in their game, perhaps eradicating it completely. He said such a goal was possible if they were able to play position with a very high degree of accuracy.

I believe he was talking about pool, rather than snooker, the latter which I believe tends to require greater use of English (side) to play at the high level?

Any comments?
Click to expand...
Ridiculous.

Fred
 
Andrew Manning said:
It's not new, but people should understand it's also not true. I don't know which top pro you're referring to, but simply watching video of the top pros reveals that while you do frequently hear someone making a claim like the one above (95% of shots without side-spin), those claims are always wildly off the mark.

Great players (world class) might only use side spin on 25% of their shots. For us mere mortals, I would bet it's usually over 50%. There's no human being on the planet who can play winning 9-ball with such extreme control that they can stick to the center axis on 95% of shots. That means while running a 5-pack, you'd only stray off the center axis on 2 shots. No matter who you're talking about, that's a wild exaggeration. I'd bet that regardless of what the player may claim, it's actually more than 10 shots, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it was more than 20.

-Andrew
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Andrew,

You're absolutely correct. I played against said player and during our match he used a lot more sidespin than 5% (probably your estimate of 25% is pretty close)

But thinking about it that way helps him be more careful about using sidespin I think. It's a mental model that works for him and other folks have picked it up.

~rc
 
Taco said:
One of the biggest differences I've noticed between highly skilled players, like pros, and schmucks like me is that pros tend to use more English, not less.
Click to expand...

Exactly 100000000% correctomundo. Pros use MORE english than lesser players. Because they're pros, they can use more english, still make the ball, and get easier position. That's why they're pros.

I can't believe anyone who has watched any decent pool would even think that top player actually use less.

The absolute standard 3 or 4 shots in rotation games like 9-ball or 10-ball are shots with english. They make the game so much easier than trying to force yourself to use vertical center.

. Mosconi mostly played 14.1, where the cue ball generally has to travel much shorter distances to get shape.
Click to expand...
And even Mosconi's standard break shot was the back cut with 3-rail shape off the pack. Guess what? He used inside english.

In other words, his words didn't apply to him or to good player. They applied to players who had problems making shots with english. At some point, good player have to get past that problem and add english to their game or else they will be forever stuck in Mediocreville.

Fred
 
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