Pulled or Pushed

[3kushn]

Just a thought.....

The cue stick is attached to our body with the help of our hand.
Muscles in our body always pull, they never push.

The Triceps pull the arm back and the Biceps pull our arm forward.

The cue stick is being pulled forward, the cue ball is being pushed forward.

As I said, just a thought.

randyg

This would fall in line with his thinking. Since you can pull more weight than pushing, then a rear balanced has more weight being pulled....Kinda... Extra cue weight behind the grip than in font can allow for more power. At least that was the jest of his thinking.

I don't own a break cue but just wondering how they're normally balanced?

 

[KRJ]

I come here more than most NPRers.

I have essential tremor so when I pause I shake sometimes. The older I get, the worse it is. I've been working on pausing, or not, re the tremor. Not sure which way works best, other than to just continue on with the stroke no matter what happens. Once committed to the shot, I don't want to stop for anything. Sometimes that is a good thing, sometimes, not.

What helps best for me is to lift weights so my triceps are stronger
so even if I pause and shake there's enough working muscle to overcome that problem.

Now, if I could just stay with my lifting routine.

Jeff Livingston

Yeah, nice little break coming in here But yes, physical limitations change the rules, and when I give lessons, I don't adhere to many things due to those limitations, especially amont the "older" players. And rather than get bogged down, we try and get to the path that works for the student. Not everyone is the same, and thus can not be taught exactly the same way.

Some folks will NOT change certain things due to those limitations or just stubborness, but the goal is to figure out what will work. And I keep in mind that I"m not training folks for the US Open, but folks who just want to shoot a little better, or move up a few levels in their league !!

 

[One Pocket John]

Just a thought.....

The cue stick is attached to our body with the help of our hand.
Muscles in our body always pull, they never push.

The Triceps pull the arm back and the Biceps pull our arm forward.

The cue stick is being pulled forward, the cue ball is being pushed forward.

As I said, just a thought.

randyg

Thanks Randy, your post is logical.

I did notice that when I push the cue thru the forward stroke that my bicep does not flex very much. But when I pull the cue thru the forward stroke my bicep is flexed (like making a mudcle).

Thanks folks........back to the table and more practice.

Is Mr. 3Kushin's name Bill (Mr. Stroke) from Cue and Cushion? :smile:

Thanks again

John

 

[Scott Lee]

Actually John, you have it backwards. When you pull the cue back with the tricep, and pull it forward with the bicep, along a predetermined range of motion, with a loose cradle, and a perfectly timed swing, you are flexing the bicep the least. When you push the cue forward, with a tight grip (like on the break for most players), you are exerting more muscle 'clench', and therefore pushing or driving the cuestick through the CB, with your arm and shoulder muscles heavily flexed. For the most accurate and repeatable results (for most players), keep a loose cradle and a pulling movement (which is what happens when the 'quick twitch' muscle fibers in the bicep contract).

Oh...and 3kushn is Tom, not Bill! :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Thanks Randy, your post is logical.

I did notice that when I push the cue thru the forward stroke that my bicep does not flex very much. But when I pull the cue thru the forward stroke my bicep is flexed (like making a mudcle).

Thanks folks........back to the table and more practice.

Is Mr. 3Kushin's name Bill (Mr. Stroke) from Cue and Cushion? :smile:

Thanks again

John

 

[One Pocket John]

Actually John, you have it backwards. When you pull the cue back with the tricep, and pull it forward with the bicep, along a predetermined range of motion, with a loose cradle, and a perfectly timed swing, you are flexing the bicep the least. When you push the cue forward, with a tight grip (like on the break for most players), you are exerting more muscle 'clench', and therefore pushing or driving the cuestick through the CB, with your arm and shoulder muscles heavily flexed. For the most accurate and repeatable results (for most players), keep a loose cradle and a pulling movement (which is what happens when the 'quick twitch' muscle fibers in the bicep contract).

Oh...and 3kushn is Tom, not Bill! :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Thanks Scott. I'll be sure to pay close attention to the forward stroke and what my biscep is doing. You pull with the biscep with no tension in the muscle.

John

 

[Bob Jewett]

... with the tricep, and pull it forward with the bicep, ...

A small nit: Biceps is the singular form of the word. Not "bicep". The correct Latin plural of the word is bicipites (by-SIP-eh-TEES, I think), which you probably are not going to see in any body-building magazines. In English, "biceps" is both the singular and plural form, sort of like "sheep". Similarly, triceps is the singular form. "Tricep" is, technically, not a word.

As for the original question, I believe that all muscles do their work by contraction, so I'm not sure how to differentiate between "push" and "pull". The most obvious way is by the location of the center of mass of the cue stick relative to the connected part of the body, and that is always ahead of the hand so the power stroke is always a push.

So, I would say the question has little meaning.

 

[Scott Lee]

I disagree Bob. It's only a push if there is significant tension in the biceps, shoulder and grip. If you were to "hang" the cue, from a couple of balance points, where it was level with the table, at ball address, and then the cue was pulled back, and then "thrown" through the CB, at a high rate of acceleration, there would be no push involved. With a very loose grip, and no shoulder involvement, the pendulum stroke accomplishes the same thing.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

the power stroke is always a push.

 

[3kushn]

Is Mr. 3Kushin's name Bill (Mr. Stroke) from Cue and Cushion? :smile:

Thanks again

John

Some call me Mr. Elbow No Stroke

 

[BilliardsAbout]

The biceps are two muscles, which is why there is no "bicep". Anatomy gets complex where tendons attach muscles in tandem or even bigger groups.

 

[FranCrimi]

Maybe I'm too simplistic about the complex movements of the arm, but to me it would seem that in the forward motion, if you drop your elbow, you are pushing and if you don't you are pulling. So you can choose to either push or pull.

Am I wrong? Did I miss something?

 

[FranCrimi]

Maybe I'm too simplistic about the complex movements of the arm, but to me it would seem that in the forward motion, if you drop your elbow, you are pushing and if you don't, you are pulling. So you can choose to either push or pull.

Am I wrong? Did I miss something?

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Am I wrong? Did I miss something?

I don't think you are missing anything because there is nothing here. No one here has yet given a good explanation of "push" versus "pull". When I'm pushing a car to get it started, I know I'm pushing. When we give up on starting it, and we tie a rope to its front bumper and tow it to a service station, I know we're pulling. I think in the context of the mechanics of the stroke, the concept is not useful or applicable. "Am I pushing? Did I pull that shot?" Worthless pondering. Concentrate on moving your arm straight through with the minimum effort that gets the required speed. Do not strain at gnats.

Unfortunately, no one here seems to know anything about sports kinesiology, which may have some actual answers in this matter.

 

[Bob Jewett]

The biceps are two muscles, which is why there is no "bicep". Anatomy gets complex where tendons attach muscles in tandem or even bigger groups.

Wikipedia has an excellent article on this that seems to disagree with your comment. They seem to think it's one muscle with two "heads". Here is the article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biceps

They point out that some people have up to 7 "heads" in their biceps brachii.

There is no "bicep" because the word "biceps" is singular.

 

[FranCrimi]

I don't think you are missing anything because there is nothing here. No one here has yet given a good explanation of "push" versus "pull". When I'm pushing a car to get it started, I know I'm pushing. When we give up on starting it, and we tie a rope to its front bumper and tow it to a service station, I know we're pulling. I think in the context of the mechanics of the stroke, the concept is not useful or applicable. "Am I pushing? Did I pull that shot?" Worthless pondering. Concentrate on moving your arm straight through with the minimum effort that gets the required speed. Do not strain at gnats.

Unfortunately, no one here seems to know anything about sports kinesiology, which may have some actual answers in this matter.

Maybe you're right, but I think there may be something here worth researching. You're right in that we need a more scientific definition of pulling and pushing, but if we don't research it, we won't learn for sure whether or not it has value.

 

[sfleinen]

I don't think you are missing anything because there is nothing here. No one here has yet given a good explanation of "push" versus "pull". When I'm pushing a car to get it started, I know I'm pushing. When we give up on starting it, and we tie a rope to its front bumper and tow it to a service station, I know we're pulling. I think in the context of the mechanics of the stroke, the concept is not useful or applicable. "Am I pushing? Did I pull that shot?" Worthless pondering. Concentrate on moving your arm straight through with the minimum effort that gets the required speed. Do not strain at gnats.

Unfortunately, no one here seems to know anything about sports kinesiology, which may have some actual answers in this matter.

Bob:

Definitely NOT a sports kinesiologist here, although I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Do we really need to invoke sports kinesiology, though? I mean, let's boil it down to simple anatomy -- what, of the two types of muscles (flexor or extensor), is used to create the movement?

To me, the pool stroke -- the one in which you DELIVER the cue -- is a push stroke, because it involves the use of the bicep (flexor). Most of the weight of the cue is in FRONT of the lever (the forearm), and the flexor muscle pushes the weight forward. Sure, pulling the cue back is a pull, but we're focusing on the delivery here, and that is definitely a push.

But I agree that we're picking at nits -- not even worthwhile to discuss, because it has no bearing on how well we deliver the cue.

A more apropros discussion would be what muscle groups to invoke to deliver that cue -- not whether it's a "push" or a "pull" motion.

-Sean

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Sure, pulling the cue back is a pull, but we're focusing on the delivery here, and that is definitely a push. ...

I'll strain at a few more gnats, 'cause that's what I do.

So when you are a little chilly at night and you pull the covers up, do you ever do that by contracting your biceps? Few would call that "pushing" the covers up. You push the covers down with your extensors. You push the plate away at dinner similarly. You can pull on a fishing line with either depending on how your arm is turned.

For most people "push" and "pull" are defined by where you are and where the object is and which way you want to move the object.

 

[Donny Lutz]

I choose "pull"

Is the cue stick pulled thru the stroke or pushed thru the stroke?

My instructor asked me once, long ago, "is it easier to push the cue or to pull the cue forward". Tough question.

In my mind if I am going to force something forward, like a cue ball, I would want to push the stick rather tha pull the stick forward. But pushing involves muscles to tense which can be a problem.

Had to ask. :smile:

John

I choose pull over push.

Have you ever tried to push a wheel barrow up a hill? It's much easier to pull it.

When you address the CB, your grip hand is BEHIND you. Do you want to push something from behind you or pull it from behind you?

Pushing the cue can tend to tighten your grip. A loose grip works fine for pulling something that weighs just over a pound.

More control with a pull than a push.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor

 

[sfleinen]

I'll strain at a few more gnats, 'cause that's what I do.

So when you are a little chilly at night and you pull the covers up, do you ever do that by contracting your biceps? Few would call that "pushing" the covers up. You push the covers down with your extensors. You push the plate away at dinner similarly. You can pull on a fishing line with either depending on how your arm is turned.

For most people "push" and "pull" are defined by where you are and where the object is and which way you want to move the object.

Of course, Bob -- the action isn't necessarily tied to the function of "flexor" vs "extensor." I hinted at this when I mentioned that the majority of the weight of the cue was in front of the lever, hence, to me, it's a "push" motion.

However, if we *really* want to strain at gnats, root cause of all muscle motion is a PULL, because we know that's how muscles work -- the fibers contract (i.e. they pull their levers), not expand.

-Sean

 

[sfleinen]

I choose pull over push.

Have you ever tried to push a wheel barrow up a hill? It's much easier to pull it.

When you address the CB, your grip hand is BEHIND you. Do you want to push something from behind you or pull it from behind you?

Pushing the cue can tend to tighten your grip. A loose grip works fine for pulling something that weighs just over a pound.

More control with a pull than a push.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor

Donny:

Pure semantics on whether your grip on the cue is in front of or behind you. The question is where is your grip on that object, related to its own weight and balance point? If you were gripping the cue near the tip, sure, you'd be pulling the cue. But you don't grip the cue in that manner.

Put it this way -- in front of you stands a pile of earth (dirt). You have a long-handled shovel in your hands (the type with just a long hickory broomstick-type handle). When gripping the shovel normally, getting ready to "stab" it into the pile of earth, are you "pulling" or "pushing"? I vote push -- the majority of the shovel's weight is in front of your hands.

But then again, muscle fibers work on the concept of *pulling* their levers (i.e. forearm, or, in the pectoral muscle's case, the upper arm), so is that really a "pull"?

Like Bob says, we're straining at gnats here.
-Sean

 

[Okie]

In my opinion...

Whether you are pushing or pulling a cue is determined by the position of your hand in relation to your elbow, assuming your elbow is the hinge in your stroke.

Am I right or Amarillo?

Ken