Pulled or Pushed
- Thread starter One Pocket John
- Start date
:grin:
Ok, here's another scenario:
You are trying to get a very heavy wheelbarrow up a hill. The initial approach would be to grab the wheelbarrow's handles, lifting up, and then walking backwards up the hill. However, you find that if you turn around and face the opposite way, stand between the wheelbarrow's handles (you're facing up the hill, while the wheelbarrow is behind you facing down the hill, and you are between the handles), you reach out to the ends of the wheelbarrow's handles in front of you, lift up, and "push" the wheelbarrow up the hill, in much the same way as those horse-drawn carts, except you are the horse, and you're "attached" to the handles of the cart (wheelbarrow) via your own hands.
Your hands are in front of you, so your synopsis (quoted above) would be that you're "pushing" the wheelbarrow. But the wheelbarrow's weight is behind you. So is that really a push or pull?
BTW, the "hands out in front of you to push" (when you're actually pulling the weight behind you) is used in some versions of the strongman truck pull (where the strongman grips two ropes attached to the truck, and his ends of the ropes have rings attached at the ends, which he thrusts out in front of him to "push" against), and it's still called a truck "pull," because the weight is behind the person moving the weight of the truck.
-Sean
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I agree with that assessment.
In possibly straining a few more gnats, I think that the only 'pulling' action there can be in any stroke is in the second half of the forward motion of a pendulum-type stroke, where the elbow is still. Maybe it could be considered a push to the bottom or midpoint of the pendulum, but once it reaches the midpoint, I think the motion after that is a pure pull.
Whether the pull of a pendulum vs. the push of an elbow drop stroke has any significance would seem to me to be not yet known, regardless of what anyone theorizes, until someone actually does the research.
Even though I am NOT an instructor, I would tend to agree with you Mr. Ken.
pull: Exert force on (someone or something), typically by taking hold of them or it, to move or try to move them or it toward onself or the origin of the force.
push: Exert force on (someone or something), typically with one's hands, in order to move them or it away from onself or the origin of the force.
So the foward stroke is a pull then a push by typical definition.
I prefer to not think of it in either of those terms due to the positions of the hand & forearm. I believe they are in a pronated position.
Just my $0.02 contribution to the veranulars.
RJ
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Actually, you're disagreeing with Ken, not agreeing with him.
The key point that I think some folks are missing is this:
"Push" vs "pull" has everything to do with your contact point on the object relative to its weight, and has NOTHING to do with the orientation of the object to your body.
The orientation of the object related to the force placed upon it, determines whether the motion is a "push" or a "pull".
In the concept of a cue, even though your grip hand is behind you, your grip hand is still BEHIND the majority of the weight of the cue.
Here's a final, third scenario:
Everyone's familiar with dumbbells (weight-lifting objects, not people
), right? When you grip a dumbbell normally to exercise your biceps, is that a push or a pull? Now place that dumbbell on the floor, tie a short length rope to that dumbbell, where the free end of the rope has a loop in it for you to place your hand in to grip. Gripping the loop of that rope, lift the dumbbell off the floor using the exact same motion of your biceps. Is that now a push or a pull?Regardless of the "definition" of push vs. pull, the same muscle grips are used to deliver the cue, in the same motion. The delivery motion is the same.
-Sean
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In both cases your hands are ahead of the weight of the cart. I would call both cases pulling the weight.
But I'm not sure that's what you said in this reply:
That would imply that as you go through your stroke, it starts out as a "pull" and turns into a "push" merely because the hand passed by the elbow, yet the weight of the cue -- at all times -- stayed in front of the hand, even during what you would call (if I'm understanding you correctly) the "pull" phase.
Or did I misunderstand?
-Sean
Yes, sorry, that is correct. I was thinking the word's etymology has to do with the two heads/parts.
It looks like some are speaking about the backstroke and some the forward stroke in the most recent posts.
The elbow joint is a uniaxial hinge (like swinging a door back or forth in one arc/direction only, and an "elbow" can be flexed or extended as Sean suggested. (Please note "elbow" is in quotes as I'd like to keep this in lay terms.)
Sean is correct if the player has a lower arm straight up-and-down perpendicular to the cloth. If the elbow is broken out a bit, then the whole biceps/triceps stroke creates a slight curve to the stroke, and there has to be some kind of adjustment or compensation. I understand SPF and Tom Simpson, etc. work to simplify the stroke with biceps/triceps movements--I'm all for making it simple for students--and it works if the lower arm hangs down with gravity. But in the same vein (anatomical pun not intended) calling the stroke a pendulum is likewise "simplifying" and almost, but not, correct.
A biceps/triceps stroke back and forth feels like a pull back/push through to me. We're straining at gnats, perhaps, but the right picture could make all the difference for a newbie--but then again there's more than one way to stroke a cue and score.
As in golf, I prefer telling students, "Go straight back and forth without undue tension." As in golf, all the conscious looping and wrist cocking and muscle tensing and releasing and etc. hasn't improved anyone's scores.
Pull, push, toss, I don't care much.
Actually, you're disagreeing with Ken, not agreeing with him.
The key point that I think some folks are missing is this:
"Push" vs "pull" has everything to do with your contact point on the object relative to its weight, and has NOTHING to do with the orientation of the object to your body.
The orientation of the object related to the force placed upon it, determines whether the motion is a "push" or a "pull".
In the concept of a cue, even though your grip hand is behind you, your grip hand is still BEHIND the majority of the weight of the cue.
Here's a final, third scenario:
Everyone's familiar with dumbbells (weight-lifting objects, not people
Regardless of the "definition" of push vs. pull, the same muscle grips are used to deliver the cue, in the same motion. The delivery motion is the same.
-Sean
LOL
How about we stay in the context of a pool cue and the stroke. This really isn't so in depth and complex that we have to start thinking about physiology.
The weight is ahead of the hand but the hand is behind the force used to move the hand.
How bout this...
I pull the hand which pushes the cue?
I hope I said that right. I am far to uneducated to be using this many fancy words. Hell, I just got lucky to spell physiology right and I had to look up the definition of fulcrum in hopes of not misusing it. And even then I backed off of using it in fear of being wrong.
Why did I open my mouth?
Ken
p.s. I read your last comment and think this answers it as well. And yes once the hand passes the elbow it would be a push if you actively extend the follow through. I think a better technique would be to let the follow through come to it's own death naturally without pushing.
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What do you call it when a player releases the cue during the forward stroke and catches it again somewhere ala Greenleaf? For the cue momentum to exceed the hand motion, there has to be a letting go and/or a toss...
...But I really like your position here. Piston strokes push and pendulums pull forward.
How bout this...
I pull the hand which pushes the cue?
I hope I said that right. I am far to uneducated to be using this many fancy words. Hell, I just got lucky to spell physiology right and I had to look up the definition of fulcrum in hopes of not misusing it.
Why did I open my mouth?
Ken
p.s. I read your last comment and think this answers it as well. And yes once the hand passes the elbow it would be a push if you actively extend the follow through. I think a better technique would be to let the follow through come to it's own death naturally without pushing.
Hey, hey! That's why I suggested a thread on how the cue starts back. Some move their lower arm and the hand/cue come for the ride and some are sort of vice versa and consciously begin by pulling the hand back. And then all the wrist pieces come into play either way in different configurations... and I'm telling 'ya it's a great question to ask when they're on the case 9-ball...
LOL
How about we stay in the context of a pool cue and the stroke. This really isn't so in depth and complex that we have to start thinking about physiology.
The weight is ahead of the hand but the hand is behind the force used to move the hand.
How bout this...
I pull the hand which pushes the cue?
I hope I said that right. I am far to uneducated to be using this many fancy words. Hell, I just got lucky to spell physiology right and I had to look up the definition of fulcrum in hopes of not misusing it.
Why did I open my mouth?
Ken
p.s. I read your last comment and think this answers it as well. And yes once the hand passes the elbow it would be a push if you actively extend the follow through. I think a better technique would be to let the follow through come to it's own death naturally without pushing.
That was exactly my point from the beginning (and Bob's as well). It doesn't matter. Whether you like to think you're "pushing" the cue or "pulling" the cue, it's merely academic. And remember, this is a discussion board, and sometimes discussions take a diversion to explore those little nuances. It happens.
I agree with the letting cue's momentum come to its own stop.
In the concept of what the OP was proposing, I think the answer to the "I think I pulled the shot" thing is that he used muscles to stop the momentum suddenly, instead of letting it come to its own stop. A worse indication of this is something called the "lasso" stroke, where the cue is actually snapped back after contact with the cue ball -- a definite deadly no-no.
Do you agree? Remember, all of this is in the spirit of discussion.
-Sean
Trust me Sean...I am in good spirits. I am laughing my butt off at how poorly I communicate!
Ken
Trust me Sean...I am in good spirits. I am laughing my butt off at how poorly I communicate!
Ken
Good -- I hoped that we weren't getting off on a bad foot. And, I took one on the noggin' myself, when I used the mangled word "bicep" -- when it is correctly called "biceps" even when referring to the single muscle group attached to one arm (re: the dumbbell explanation). Thanks for that, Bob!
What interested me in this whole "push/pull" thing, is that it's a common term used in I.T. You might ask, "what in the h*ll would the terms push/pull have anything to do with information technology?". The answer lie in how computers "receive" information. You can open a connection to a computer and "push" (upload) content to it, or you can open a connection and "pull" (download) content from it. The key is where is the force located that is moving the content, relative to the content itself? Is it in front of, or behind it?
I often get into these discussions when I do post-project knowledge transfer sessions at customer sites, when I hear folks confuse the terms "upload" and "download."
All's good,
-Sean
Go the end of your backswing then stop. Consciously try to push forward now "from the stroke hand". What is the effect on the elbow? Repeat sequence with a "pull".
Fran is correct. Pullers pendulum, pushers piston.
Now if I can only convert those four alliterative words into a 750-article for my website...! Just kiddin'.
Fran is correct. Pullers pendulum, pushers piston.
Now if I can only convert those four alliterative words into a 750-article for my website...! Just kiddin'.
Why do you believe that Greenleaf did this?
I did Network and System administration from 2002-2006. I was then asked to create a SQA group. I spent 3 years doing that until I left. SQA is not for me. You do your job and tell folks it ain't working then they get on ya because you're always complaining. I work at a small place now and am a one man IT department. Love the lack of stress!
So ya...push/pull....gotcha!
On a pool note, I have a desire to break down the stroke into pieces. I have seen/found my problem and now I just have to fix it.
Tis a good topic for me right now...thanks Rick(RJ)!
Ken
Actually, you're disagreeing with Ken, not agreeing with him.
The key point that I think some folks are missing is this:
"Push" vs "pull" has everything to do with your contact point on the object relative to its weight, and has NOTHING to do with the orientation of the object to your body.
The orientation of the object related to the force placed upon it, determines whether the motion is a "push" or a "pull".
In the concept of a cue, even though your grip hand is behind you, your grip hand is still BEHIND the majority of the weight of the cue.
Here's a final, third scenario:
Everyone's familiar with dumbbells (weight-lifting objects, not people
Regardless of the "definition" of push vs. pull, the same muscle grips are used to deliver the cue, in the same motion. The delivery motion is the same.
-Sean
Sean,
Why did you delete the definintion of 'pull' when quoting my post. Also, I respectfully request, please, that you do not presume to tell me what I am doing. I agree with Ken that the determining factor is the position of the mass relative to the force as also stated in both definitions.
Regards,
Rick
RJ
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LOL
How about we stay in the context of a pool cue and the stroke. This really isn't so in depth and complex that we have to start thinking about physiology.
The weight is ahead of the hand but the hand is behind the force used to move the hand.
How bout this...
I pull the hand which pushes the cue?
I hope I said that right. I am far to uneducated to be using this many fancy words. Hell, I just got lucky to spell physiology right and I had to look up the definition of fulcrum in hopes of not misusing it. And even then I backed off of using it in fear of being wrong.
Why did I open my mouth?
Ken
p.s. I read your last comment and think this answers it as well. And yes once the hand passes the elbow it would be a push if you actively extend the follow through. I think a better technique would be to let the follow through come to it's own death naturally without pushing.
I an not an instructor, but I would agree with the bolded part of Mr. Kens. post
based on my 46 years of playing experience.
RJ
Man.....I opened up a can of worms with my thread. It has been very interesting reading.
A lot of different opinions. Thank you.
I am going to stick with either pull the cue forward until you are at the bottom of the arc and then begin to push the cue forward or pull the cue thru the entire forward stroke.
I have a table at home and the time to dedicate.
I dont have any issues with getting thru the cue ball I just want to do it comfortably and correctly.
I use to play very well about 12 years ago, then something clicked off and I couldnt feel the cue ball, so I started, I think now, is pushing the cue thru the entire stroke. After about a year of trying to get my sytroke back I quit playing for 10 years. Just started back up about 2 years ago. I know I'm getting closer to where I was 12 years ago.
Just takes many hours of practice and feel.
Thanks everyone
John
A lot of different opinions. Thank you.
I am going to stick with either pull the cue forward until you are at the bottom of the arc and then begin to push the cue forward or pull the cue thru the entire forward stroke.
I have a table at home and the time to dedicate.
I dont have any issues with getting thru the cue ball I just want to do it comfortably and correctly.
I use to play very well about 12 years ago, then something clicked off and I couldnt feel the cue ball, so I started, I think now, is pushing the cue thru the entire stroke. After about a year of trying to get my sytroke back I quit playing for 10 years. Just started back up about 2 years ago. I know I'm getting closer to where I was 12 years ago.
Just takes many hours of practice and feel.
Thanks everyone
John