Pulled or Pushed

[ENGLISH!]

What do you call it when a player releases the cue during the forward stroke and catches it again somewhere ala Greenleaf? For the cue momentum to exceed the hand motion, there has to be a letting go and/or a toss...

...But I really like your position here. Piston strokes push and pendulums pull forward.

Mr. Sherman,

My stroke is fairly similiar to which you refer. I would not call it a release, though I believe Mr. Greenleaf did actually do so on certain shots. I also do not 'let go' & toss the cue. My stroke is similiar due to the loose attachment of the hand to the cue & the loose free flowing wrist. Those aspects make it approximate a toss as the cue 'slides' slightly with in the hand attachement in conjunction with the loose wrist that allows the cue to move in a more straight line as it would if 'tossed'. The motion is somewhat similiar to tossing a horse shoe but with the hand/forearm in a pronated position. Someone refered to it as a J stroke, but I'm not sure if that would exactly apply to the stroke of Mr. Greenleaf. Hope this is helpful in some small way,

Sincerely,
Rick (I am not an instructor)

 

[ENGLISH!]

Go the end of your backswing then stop. Consciously try to push forward now "from the stroke hand". What is the effect on the elbow? Repeat sequence with a "pull".

Fran is correct. Pullers pendulum, pushers piston.

Now if I can only convert those four alliterative words into a 750-article for my website...! Just kiddin'.

Mr. Sherman,

For discussion purposes, I would not etch that in stone. My stroke much more resembles a pistion in the actual movement of the cue & I never have any inkling of ever pushing the cue. Remember the tossing reference & picture or 'feel' the motion of tossing a horse shoe. Now take the shoe in hand & pronate so the shoe is perpendicular to the ground.Take it back til it stops & step foward. Are you pushing it or are you pulling it. As the 'swing' nears bottom, if you place no addional force on it & let the momentum carry it foward, did you push it?

Just 'food' for thought.
Rick (I am not an instructor)

 

[sfleinen]

Sean,

Why did you delete the definintion of 'pull' when quoting my post. Also, I respectfully request, please, that you do not presume to tell me what I am doing. I agree with Ken that the determining factor is the position of the mass relative to the force as also stated in both definitions.

Regards,
Rick

RJ

RJ:

First of all, before you pop assumptions all over the place, you'll notice that you initially posted an incomplete post, and was in the process of editing it when I replied. Don't believe me? Click the "Last edited by ENGLISH!" link underneath your post, and do a "Compare versions". You'll see that you posted a blank definition of "pull:" and I'd replied to that post of yours, after which you edited it and filled-in the definition.

So, you'll see the "Please... don't presume to tell me..." thing is pretty much moot.

Second, although not in your reply above, why do the large majority of your posts have the phrase "in my 46 years of playing..." editorializing? We get it, you've been playing a long time. Obviously, there's a natural reply to that, roughly translating to something along the lines of time itself doesn't necessarily translate to <fill in the blank>. I don't say that to be mean; I'm saying that to let you know that the "46 years" thing doesn't necessarily carry authoritative weight. It *can*, but it doesn't necessarily "have to."

Respectfully,
-Sean

 

[ENGLISH!]

RJ:

First of all, before you pop assumptions all over the place, you'll notice that you initially posted an incomplete post, and was in the process of editing it when I replied. Don't believe me? Click the "Last edited by ENGLISH!" link underneath your post, and do a "Compare versions". You'll see that you posted a blank definition of "pull:" and I'd replied to that post of yours, after which you edited it and filled-in the definition.

So, you'll see the "Please... don't presume to tell me..." thing is pretty much moot.

Second, although not in your reply above, why do the large majority of your posts have the phrase "in my 46 years of playing..." editorializing? We get it, you've been playing a long time. Obviously, there's a natural reply to that, roughly translating to something along the lines of time itself doesn't necessarily translate to <fill in the blank>. I don't say that to be mean; I'm saying that to let you know that the "46 years" thing doesn't necessarily carry authoritative weight. It *can*, but it doesn't necessarily "have to."

Respectfully,
-Sean

Sean,

I stand corrected, I should not have worded my question in that assumptive manner. I apologize.

However, I respectfully stand by my request that I not be told whether I agree or disagree with someone or something. I think it would be more appropriate to point out that my example, statement, etc. seems to more closely disagree rather than agree if that was your interpretation.

I am NOT an instructor & it has been discussed in another thread that those commenting in this section that are not instructors should probably identify themselves as such to make it clear to those reading such comments. I respectfully agree & try whole heartedly to do so.

You may have read & am aware of the length of time that have played the game but others & new readers may not. I concur with your thoughts rearding my 46 years of playing experience & I reciprocate them toward a certificate.

No offense meant. I have a Chauffuers Drivers License. Does that tell that you that I am a very good driver or merely that I can pass a test. That is why in the thread I started regarding civility. I brought up the idea of an AZB instructors registry with background & credentials. I think it might be beneficial to potential students & instructors alike.

With Reciprocating Respect,
Rick

 

[bbb]

do you think this thread will help players from now until forever??
just askin
do you think this thread is mental masturbation because noone has posted a better question to answer
just askin
im not an instructor so i may be missing the teaching point

 

[CJ Wiley]

Extend the Tip

Is the cue stick pulled thru the stroke or pushed thru the stroke?

My instructor asked me once, long ago, "is it easier to push the cue or to pull the cue forward". Tough question.

In my mind if I am going to force something forward, like a cue ball, I would want to push the stick rather tha pull the stick forward. But pushing involves muscles to tense which can be a problem.

Had to ask. :smile:

John

The feeling is best described "Extend your tip through the Cue Ball" imho

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Why do you believe that Greenleaf did this?

I don't think he did it on every stroke. Hal Houle talked with me about it and on the trick shots on YouTube where he's going for more cue ball roll, you can see Greenleaf "reverse slip stroking" on the forward stroke...

It's a fun technique to try but extremely difficult to time with any kind of accuracy. Very nice for certain shots though...

 

[Bob Jewett]

I don't think he did it on every stroke. Hal Houle talked with me about it and on the trick shots on YouTube where he's going for more cue ball roll, you can see Greenleaf "reverse slip stroking" on the forward stroke...

It's a fun technique to try but extremely difficult to time with any kind of accuracy. Very nice for certain shots though...

Are there any specific Youtube videos that you think display this well?

 

[chefjeff]

I don't think you are missing anything because there is nothing here. No one here has yet given a good explanation of "push" versus "pull". When I'm pushing a car to get it started, I know I'm pushing. When we give up on starting it, and we tie a rope to its front bumper and tow it to a service station, I know we're pulling. I think in the context of the mechanics of the stroke, the concept is not useful or applicable. "Am I pushing? Did I pull that shot?" Worthless pondering. Concentrate on moving your arm straight through with the minimum effort that gets the required speed. Do not strain at gnats.

Unfortunately, no one here seems to know anything about sports kinesiology, which may have some actual answers in this matter.

Didn't one of the backgrounds songs in the Color of Money have a refrain of "Push...Pull...Push....Pull..."?

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

I think this whole thread is just pushing our leg.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Donny Lutz]

Yes, it's a pull

In both cases your hands are ahead of the weight of the cart. I would call both cases pulling the weight.

Yes!!

When you begin your business stroke, your grip hand is obviously behind you, as is the point on the cue where you grip. How can you push something that is behind you?

With regard to the wheelbarrow, whether you're facing uphill or backing uphill, the weight of the barrow is below (behind) you. Even if you're facing downhill you're still pulling it.

When you pull back (please notice it's PULL back), you're pulling the tip away from the cue ball. When you execute the business stroke, you're pulling the cue back into the address position. On a normal shot, once the cue starts forward it has momentum and doesn't need to be "pushed" at all. It stops its forward motion because you have a grip on it. Now the exaggerated follow-through is a different thing. This can be correctly be called a "pull transitioning into a push".

Try looking at a car instead of a wheel barrow. When you tow a car, it doesn't matter if the tow truck is facing the towee and is in reverse gear, or is not facing the towee and is in a forward gear. Either way you are pulling the towee. And once the towed vehicle starts its forward motion, momentum allows it to continue until something stops it. And just like in pool, you have more control with the pull than with a push. Why do you think it's legal to tow a car by pulling and not by pushing? Because it's easier and you have more control.

One more way to look at this!...
Stop your stroke at the end of your pull back and look back at your grip hand. To bring the grip hand forward for the business stroke, are you pushing your grip hand toward you, or pulling it?

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor

 

[sfleinen]

With regard to the wheelbarrow, whether you're facing uphill or backing uphill, the weight of the barrow is below (behind) you. Even if you're facing downhill you're still pulling it.

Donny, this we *all* agree on. Please read my post #42 carefully. You'll notice that I'm trying to demonstrate this action is a PULL to the person I'm responding to, regardless of the location of the hands in relation to the body. What I was trying to demonstrate -- as evidenced by the further example of the truck "pull" in that post -- that because the weight is completely behind the person, this action is always a pull, regardless of the location of the hands to the body.

Yes!!

When you begin your business stroke, your grip hand is obviously behind you, as is the point on the cue where you grip. How can you push something that is behind you?

Now here's where we're going awry -- we're once again trying to put the location of the hands in relation to the body as an indicator of "push" or "pull".

Even with the hands behind the body, the majority of the weight of the cue is still in front of the force propelling it. That is to say, even with your hand "behind" you, your grip + forearm (lever) is still BEHIND the majority of the weight of the cue, pushing it forward.

That is the big differentiator from the cart (wheelbarrow, truck pull) situation, where the entire weight of the cart is always behind your contact point (grip) on the cart. That is not the case with a cue.

When you pull back (please notice it's PULL back), you're pulling the tip away from the cue ball. When you execute the business stroke, you're pulling the cue back into the address position. On a normal shot, once the cue starts forward it has momentum and doesn't need to be "pushed" at all. It stops its forward motion because you have a grip on it. Now the exaggerated follow-through is a different thing. This can be correctly be called a "pull transitioning into a push".

Try looking at a car instead of a wheel barrow. When you tow a car, it doesn't matter if the tow truck is facing the towee and is in reverse gear, or is not facing the towee and is in a forward gear. Either way you are pulling the towee. And once the towed vehicle starts its forward motion, momentum allows it to continue until something stops it. And just like in pool, you have more control with the pull than with a push. Why do you think it's legal to tow a car by pulling and not by pushing? Because it's easier and you have more control.

One more way to look at this!...
Stop your stroke at the end of your pull back and look back at your grip hand. To bring the grip hand forward for the business stroke, are you pushing your grip hand toward you, or pulling it?

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor

Once again, I think the confusion arises from placing importance on where your body is in relation to your grip hand. It doesn't matter that your grip hand is "behind" you -- that grip hand and your forearm (lever) is still behind the majority of the weight of the cue. Now, if you were to grip the cue AHEAD OF its balance point (meaning, the majority of the weight of the cue is now behind the grip hand), I would agree with you -- you are then pulling the cue. But we don't grip the cue in that manner.

I'll give you another scenario:

You have a friend walking side-by-side with you, maybe even half a step behind, on your "cueing" side. You want to accelerate the person's pace so that he/she is walking in front of you (you're both in a jovial/joking mood). So you reach behind you with your grip hand, place your hand on your friend's back, and apply force to propel him/her forward to accelerate his/her pace. Remember, your hand is behind you, but still behind the majority of the weight of your friend. When you apply force to his/her back to propel him/her forward, is that a pull or a push?

I say it's a push. Do you agree, or no? And if not, what's your explanation that this would be a "pull" at any time?

-Sean

 

[Donny Lutz]

I want to agree so badly...

Donny, this we *all* agree on. Please read my post #42 carefully. You'll notice that I'm trying to demonstrate this action is a PULL to the person I'm responding to, regardless of the location of the hands in relation to the body. What I was trying to demonstrate -- as evidenced by the further example of the truck "pull" in that post -- that because the weight is completely behind the person, this action is always a pull, regardless of the location of the hands to the body.



Now here's where we're going awry -- we're once again trying to put the location of the hands in relation to the body as an indicator of "push" or "pull".

Even with the hands behind the body, the majority of the weight of the cue is still in front of the force propelling it. That is to say, even with your hand "behind" you, your grip + forearm (lever) is still BEHIND the majority of the weight of the cue, pushing it forward.

That is the big differentiator from the cart (wheelbarrow, truck pull) situation, where the entire weight of the cart is always behind your contact point (grip) on the cart. That is not the case with a cue.



Once again, I think the confusion arises from placing importance on where your body is in relation to your grip hand. It doesn't matter that your grip hand is "behind" you -- that grip hand and your forearm (lever) is still behind the majority of the weight of the cue. Now, if you were to grip the cue AHEAD OF its balance point (meaning, the majority of the weight of the cue is now behind the grip hand), I would agree with you -- you are then pulling the cue. But we don't grip the cue in that manner.

I'll give you another scenario:

You have a friend walking side-by-side with you, maybe even half a step behind, on your "cueing" side. You want to accelerate the person's pace (you're both in a jovial/joking mood), so you reach behind you with your grip hand, place your hand on your friend's back, and apply force to propel him/her forward to accelerate his/her pace. Remember, your hand is behind you, but still behind the majority of the weight of your friend. When you apply force to his/her back to propel him/her forward, is that a pull or a push?

I say it's a push. Do you agree, or no? And if not, what's your explanation that this would be a "pull" at any time?

-Sean

What if you turn and face that person, and place your arms around them, putting your hands on their back? Your hands are behind the majority of weight of that person. Can you push that person toward you?
No you can only PULL them toward you. For you to be able to "push" them, they must be at least slightly ahead of you.

I would say that because your grip is behind the point of address (forearm approximately perpendicular to the cue) you cannot push it toward the cue ball. Now if your grip is in FRONT of the point where the cue is perpendicular at address, THEN you can push the cue forward.

A physics professor actually explained this by simply saying, "push from behind, pull from before".

One more explanation!!

When you push something, you use the muscles that work to move your arms from bent to straight.
When you pull something, you use the muscles that work to move your arms from straight to bent.
When you bring the cue forward from your pause at the end of the back stroke, you're using the muscles that move your arm from less bent (almost straight) to bent (90% at address point).

Maybe this is easier to demonstrate than to explain in words...

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Insrtructor

 

[sfleinen]

What if you turn and face that person, and place your arms around them, putting your hands on their back? Your hands are behind the majority of weight of that person. Can you push that person toward you?
No you can only PULL them toward you. For you to be able to "push" them, they must be at least slightly ahead of you.

Ah, now we're thinking!

Let's take a look at that one:

A. If you are stationary, and use only your biceps to propel that person toward you, your forearms (levers) are still behind that person, and you are therefore pushing the person toward you. The fulcrum point and force being used to propel that person toward you is behind that person.

B. If you instead used your shoulders to propel that person toward you (i.e. pulling your shoulders back, like a military press), the fulcrum point, levers, and force being used to propel that person toward you is now AHEAD OF that person, therefore you are pulling that person toward you.

I would say that because your grip is behind the point of address (forearm approximately perpendicular to the cue) you cannot push it toward the cue ball. Now if your grip is in FRONT of the point where the cue is perpendicular at address, THEN you can push the cue forward.

A physics professor actually explained this by simply saying, "push from behind, pull from before".

Yes, I agree with the physics professor. But we have to keep in mind that when this is said, it's in reference to the force being applied, NOT where that person's body is located.

One more explanation!!

When you push something, you use the muscles that work to move your arms from bent to straight.
When you pull something, you use the muscles that work to move your arms from straight to bent.

Actually, the examples given by Bob Jewett earlier in this thread (post #36) disprove that flexor and extensor muscles have anything to do with the concept of push or pull.

When you bring the cue forward from your pause at the end of the back stroke, you're using the muscles that move your arm from less bent (almost straight) to bent (90% at address point).

Again, see post #36.

Maybe this is easier to demonstrate than to explain in words...

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Insrtructor

I would very much welcome that! I stay in contact with a couple instructors (e.g. Scott Lee, Randy) to let them know if I'm going to be at any events, asking them if they'd be there, so I would love to include you in on that list, if you wouldn't mind?

In any case, what I'm trying to do here is to get those thinking juices flowing and to stir discussion. (This is a discussion thread, isn't it?)

It looks like a rabbit hole, but I think it's very apropos to the original purpose of the thread (look at the title).

-Sean

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Are there any specific Youtube videos that you think display this well?

Greenleaf Highlights

Mr. Greenleaf takes slip strokes with the hand coming back on the backstroke but there are a number of shots where it looks like he is getting still more cue through his hand on the forward stroke as well...

 

[Donny Lutz]

One more try!

Ah, now we're thinking!

Let's take a look at that one:

A. If you are stationary, and use only your biceps to propel that person toward you, your forearms (levers) are still behind that person, and you are therefore pushing the person toward you. The fulcrum point and force being used to propel that person toward you is behind that person.

B. If you instead used your shoulders to propel that person toward you (i.e. pulling your shoulders back, like a military press), the fulcrum point, levers, and force being used to propel that person toward you is now AHEAD OF that person, therefore you are pulling that person toward you.

Yes, I agree with the physics professor. But we have to keep in mind that when this is said, it's in reference to the force being applied, NOT where that person's body is located.

Again, see post #36.

I would very much welcome that! I stay in contact with a couple instructors (e.g. Scott Lee, Randy) to let them know if I'm going to be at any events, asking them if they'd be there, so I would love to include you in on that list, if you wouldn't mind?

In any case, what I'm trying to do here is to get those thinking juices flowing and to stir discussion. (This is a discussion thread, isn't it?)

Actually, the examples given by Bob Jewett earlier in this thread (post #36) disprove that flexor and extensor muscles have anything to do with the concept of push or pull.

It looks like a rabbit hole, but I think it's very apropos to the original purpose of the thread (look at the title).

-Sean

Like "Matt", and perhaps Bob, you may be making this more complicated than it needs to be...

Try this. When you begin to move the cue forward in your business stroke, you are accomplishing this by bringing your grip hand (what matters here) CLOSER to you body. Do you PUSH something closer, or PULL something closer?

Regarding attending other instructors' events, I'd love to, but I survive on a very small ss check and the little I make teaching pool. I sold my last car when gas hit $1.50 a gallon, so I don't travel much.

I've enjoyed our "debate". It's always good to debate someone who doesn't resort to insults and innuendos.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Insstructor

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I'm making it more complicated by using inexact lay terms, as usual. You pull something closer, I agree with ya'.

 

[sfleinen]

Like "Matt", and perhaps Bob, you may be making this more complicated than it needs to be...

Not really, if I (we?) think a key concept is being overlooked or "glossed over."

Try this. When you begin to move the cue forward in your business stroke, you are accomplishing this by bringing your grip hand (what matters here) CLOSER to you body. Do you PUSH something closer, or PULL something closer?

And that's where I think we're falling down -- or rather, disagree. You place importance on where your *body* is located in reference to the force.

Where I (we?) depart from this, is in reference to the *force itself* being applied. All dictionary references to "push" and "pull" only refer to the force being applied, *not* to the body itself. Try it -- go to any of the content mills (e.g. ask.com, about.com) and check it out. The definition is boiled-down to just "force."

By extending your elbow backwards (as you do when you get into your shooting stance), you've moved the fulcrum and the force itself backwards, to behind the majority of the weight of the cue. The majority of the weight of the cue is IN FRONT OF the force driving it. The force to drive the cue forward is NOT coming from your body -- it's coming from your forearm, which is being driven forward by your elbow.

So to answer your question of whether you "push something toward you" or "pull something toward you," I say it depends. "Depends" meaning where -- what part of your body -- is positioned on the object, and what muscle or muscle groups are you using to apply the force? Using your own analogy, if you extend your arms outwards and around a person (e.g. as in an embrace), with the hands placed on the center of the person's back, and use only your biceps to apply force on the person's back to bring them closer to you, you are indeed "pushing" that person towards you. By way of comparison, if you instead use your shoulders to apply force to your levers (your arms), the source of the force is AHEAD OF the person, and you're now pulling the person towards you.

Regarding attending other instructors' events, I'd love to, but I survive on a very small ss check and the little I make teaching pool. I sold my last car when gas hit $1.50 a gallon, so I don't travel much.

I've enjoyed our "debate". It's always good to debate someone who doesn't resort to insults and innuendos.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Insstructor

I've enjoyed this as well, Donny. And even though I agreed with Bob that this is really straining at gnats, we can see that it really generated a lot of back and forth discussion with multiple folks -- for the purposes of understanding. Understanding is always a good thing, even if the debate ends in an impasse.

-Sean

 

[Donny Lutz]

Geez Bob

I don't think you are missing anything because there is nothing here. No one here has yet given a good explanation of "push" versus "pull". When I'm pushing a car to get it started, I know I'm pushing. When we give up on starting it, and we tie a rope to its front bumper and tow it to a service station, I know we're pulling. I think in the context of the mechanics of the stroke, the concept is not useful or applicable. "Am I pushing? Did I pull that shot?" Worthless pondering. Concentrate on moving your arm straight through with the minimum effort that gets the required speed. Do not strain at gnats.

Unfortunately, no one here seems to know anything about sports kinesiology, which may have some actual answers in this matter.

Did I miss something in my own posts? I offered several explanations.

Maybe "worthless pondering" to you; investigative contemplation to others.

Do you think you're the ONLY person who knows anything about sports kinesiology?

Bringing the cue forward from the end of the back swing is JUST LIKE pulling a car. Did you read my last two posts? If you did and you still want to claim you can PUSH something closer to yourself, well...

I guess I live in that alternate universe where you push things AWAY from you and pull things toward you. When you execute your business stroke, you are pulling the cue (the point on it where you grip) closer to you not away from you.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor

 

[Bob Jewett]

Greenleaf Highlights

Mr. Greenleaf takes slip strokes with the hand coming back on the backstroke but there are a number of shots where it looks like he is getting still more cue through his hand on the forward stroke as well...

I do see some of the "standard" slip stroke where the hand comes back on the grip on the final backstroke for example 2:45, 4:04 and 6:00. I see no evidence of the far more complicated action you describe of the stick being thrown forward while the hand lets go of it on the forward stroke. Without evidence, it's really, really hard to believe.