Pulling up in the middle of a set when score is tied

[btown]

Already told it. 2011 Chris played Dennis in the action room $ 25 a game even 10 ball. Lost $ 200. It was his money. Not going to say his last name or speed the bottom line is he was getting robbed. Chris was in a worse game than Dennis was in with me. Guess what IT HAPPENS.. thats the point.. Chris didn't cry and whine about losing, he paid off.. I didn't see Jay come running in telling Dennis that the game was out of line.. you know why because its part of pool.. you make a bad game and you take your lumps and if your the supposed best gambler on the planet you sure as hell don't pull the move Dennis pulled..

I get the making bad games but you have blamed Jay several times for Dennis taking this Chris's money in Miami and he wasn't even there.

Now Dennis made you mad and you are blaming Jay again.. You have spent now several hours in studying/editing your post all directed at Jay over what Dennis did.. Jay tried damage control by offering $350 extra "not a bad deal since you let him out for only $150" which he stuck his foot in his mouth about American players "I am sure he likes them too" but it isn't deserving of this rant.

 

[JAM]

JAM....Is this thread turning out to how you had hoped?:thumbup:

Oh, I geuss it's kind of similar to the one you started about newbie credibility. Isn't it interesting the twists and turns that can happen? :wink::grin-square::thumbup:

 

[btown]

Hust-lin

1. To jostle and push
2. To work or move energetically and rapidly
3. To act aggressively, especially in business dealings
4. Slang:

a. to sell or get by aggressive means
b. To solicit customers. Used of a pimp or prostitute
c To misrepresent one's ability in order to deceive someone, especially in gambling.

from my reading of the thread it would appear that everyone got "Hustled" in some way.

4c started it... where $1000 was to be won with the possibility of a 2nd set! through the classic misrepresentation of one's ability and ... then...

4a was employed by getting a settlement using "aggressive means" in this case emotional manipulation (the so called begging and crying which worked!)... so... at 8/8 Dennis is going to lose $1K with nothing in his pocket... but HE walked out $850 .... the other has $150 and a thread on AZ (priceless?!)... who was the better hustler?

This romantic ideal of honor among thieves is and always has been total BS..... there are reasons why road "partners" sleep with the bank roll under their pillow and take it with them when they are going for a piss.....

The entire thread seems to be a discussion of how unfair it is that the fish threw the hook as opposed to why the fisherman failed to land the big one...

This is interesting though and worth a bump.

Did they hustle each other so all is fair? I mean if thebigeasy was truly "hustling" as so it seems is this fair in love and war? I would think the answer maybe is yes.. maybe. If thebigeasy did not lay down and played no hustle the answer would be no IMO

I mean Dennis could have been intending to finish the set regardless and was just "pulling moves" to get out even so that isn't so bad is it? Interesting topic!

 

[JAM]

LMAO. The woman certainly knows how to poke the bear with just a gentle nudge.

 

[Diamond69]

Oh, I geuss it's kind of similar to the one you started about newbie credibility. Isn't it interesting the twists and turns that can happen? :wink::grin-square::thumbup:

The train rails on the threads lately are pretty shaky, that's for sure!

I liked how you started the thread as rhetorical. A little later you threw out the names, making people say "whoa! what?". Then the story got eye witnesses, and the actual player. Was a nice read til all the hair pulling started (or toupee pulling) as someone had mentioned.

Didn't think it would make 13 pages, but it did grow a life of its own!

And no, my one liner was not meant as an invitation to bash you. But some people just can't resist. You are a troll magnet! LOL.

 

[thebighurt]

I get the making bad games but you have blamed Jay several times for Dennis taking this Chris's money in Miami and he wasn't even there.

Now Dennis made you mad and you are blaming Jay again.. You have spent now several hours in studying/editing your post all directed at Jay over what Dennis did.. Jay tried damage control by offering $350 extra "not a bad deal since you let him out for only $150" which he stuck his foot in his mouth about American players "I am sure he likes them too" but it isn't deserving of this rant.

Like I already said I didn't come on here looking for money. Mine and Dennis' deal ended when I felt bad and let him out. I I just came on here to clarify what happened because OBVIOUSLY BY THIS THREAD everything can be twisted and changed if you dont stay on top of it. Did you ever ask yourself why Jay offered the money when the money part of the situation was over? Jay knew I wouldn't accept it if it was his.. So why offer? Why didn't Jay just say it was Dennis' and then just take it off the top the next time he backs Dennis? if he would have this would have ended long ago. Have you noticed that Jay never mentioned what Dennis said after he was on his way to Jays house? Was Jay just hoping to sweep everything under the rug before EVERYONE on the planet knew what Dennis did? after all you cant make money backing someone if nobody will play them anymore.. Was he just trying to look like a hero? If not once again why not just say Dennis gave him the money and it would have ended.. Not everything is black and white and especially in the pool world..

 

[JAM]

The train rails on the threads lately are pretty shaky, that's for sure!

I liked how you started the thread as rhetorical. A little later you threw out the names, making people say "whoa! what?". Then the story got eye witnesses, and the actual player. Was a nice read til all the hair pulling started (or toupee pulling) as someone had mentioned.

Didn't think it would make 13 pages, but it did grow a life of its own!

And no, my one liner was not meant as an invitation to bash you. But some people just can't resist. You are a troll magnet! LOL.

The thing is, I heard Keith talking to somebody on the phone in Tunica. At that time, I didn't hear who was involved. I just heard his voice elevate when he was expressing his thoughts about settling in the middle of a match.

And then I started to think about it. I remember Keith trying to settle out of court with Ronnie Wisemand and Alex Pagulayan, playing them as partners together. Keith and his partner were against them, racing to 10. Well, on sixth street, Keith realized he had no chance to win, so he was trying to settle,. Ronnie and Alex were laughing so hard, they kept shooting and wouldn't settle. Keith had to pay the entire freight. Game over. It only hurt for a little bit, I guess.

They used to do it in Detroit all the time at The Rack. If there was a bad game and it was sort of obvious, they would try to settle out of court and make another game.

After Keith got off the phone, I asked him who he was talking about, and that's when I found out it was "some kid from Florida" and Dennis Orcollo.

The way Dennis did it was he was tied up and thought that he was going to be able to just take his money down without negotiating, talking with the guy, trying to work it out. That's why there was the whole stink. If Dennis would have handled it a little bit differently, with a little bit more class and tried to talk to the guy in a justified manner, the guy might have went for it. But he thought becuase he was Dennis Orcollo that he could do it. It backfired. He's lucky it only cost him 150.

 

[thebighurt]

The thing is, I heard Keith talking to somebody on the phone in Tunica. At that time, I didn't hear who was involved. I just heard his voice elevate when he was expressing his thoughts about settling in the middle of a match.

And then I started to think about it. I remember Keith trying to settle out of court with Ronnie Wisemand and Alex Pagulayan, playing them as partners together. Keith and his partner were against them, racing to 10. Well, on sixth street, Keith realized he had no chance to win, so he was trying to settle,. Ronnie and Alex were laughing so hard, they kept shooting and wouldn't settle. Keith had to pay the entire freight. Game over. It only hurt for a little bit, I guess.

They used to do it in Detroit all the time at The Rack. If there was a bad game and it was sort of obvious, they would try to settle out of court and make another game.

After Keith got off the phone, I asked him who he was talking about, and that's when I found out it was "some kid from Florida" and Dennis Orcollo.

The way Dennis did it was he was tied up and thought that he was going to be able to just take his money down without negotiating, talking with the guy, trying to work it out. That's why there was the whole stink. If Dennis would have handled it a little bit differently, with a little bit more class and tried to talk to the guy in a justified manner, the guy might have went for it. But he thought becuase he was Dennis Orcollo that he could do it. It backfired. He's lucky it only cost him 150.

You are right about that. If dennis would have said listen Rob I know im in a bad game will you let me buyout for $ 500 I would have done it INSTANTLY because I had alot of respect for him before this. Instead Dennis said " I quit, we are even and I want my money back" I offered him a $ 500 buyout and he said "No I want it all back" Dennis was just pulling a move.

 

[btown]

Like I already said I didn't come on here looking for money. Mine and Dennis' deal ended when I felt bad and let him out. I I just came on here to clarify what happened because OBVIOUSLY BY THIS THREAD everything can be twisted and changed if you dont stay on top of it. Did you ever ask yourself why Jay offered the money when the money part of the situation was over? Jay knew I wouldn't accept it if it was his.. So why offer? Why didn't Jay just say it was Dennis' and then just take it off the top the next time he backs Dennis? if he would have this would have ended long ago. Have you noticed that Jay never mentioned what Dennis said after he was on his way to Jays house? Was Jay just hoping to sweep everything under the rug before EVERYONE on the planet knew what Dennis did? after all you cant make money backing someone if nobody will play them anymore.. Was he just trying to look like a hero? If not once again why not just say Dennis gave him the money and it would have ended.. Not everything is black and white and especially in the pool world..

Can you respond to post #183
And would you say that is any different then playing like a limp biscuit to get a game?
FYI I get a true impression you did "hustle" to get this game and you haven't tried to deny it.
And I am not against a "hustler". But did you get "hustled" back? Or would you say what he did is against the hustlers code of conduct?

 

[thebighurt]

Can you respond to post #183
And would you say that is any different then playing like a limp biscuit to get a game?
FYI I get a true impression you did "hustle" to get this game and you haven't tried to deny it.
And I am not against a "hustler". But did you get "hustled" back? Or would you say what he did is against the hustlers code of conduct?

Dennis thought he was hustling me when he asked me to play even 10 ball.. Wouldn't that of been a great game for you to talk about? I asked him for the break ball in hand playing 10 ball. His eyes lit up like he saw a big turkey dinner. We made the game in the chair, i wasn't hitting balls laying down when we made the game. Just so you know once again I had played 3 matches on the same table and Dennis was there when I gave Tedder the 9 playing 10 ball.... As far as did what he do break the hustlers code?.... The next time you see a top 10 player in the world crying and whining for a buy out please let me know I would like to hear about it.

 

[1 Lone Wolf]

Answer

Can you respond to post #183
And would you say that is any different then playing like a limp biscuit to get a game?
FYI I get a true impression you did "hustle" to get this game and you haven't tried to deny it.
And I am not against a "hustler". But did you get "hustled" back? Or would you say what he did is against the hustlers code of conduct?

The answer is it agains't two players that matched up an agreed upon game to quit, or try to quit before the agreed upon race to is finished. Both players obviously thought they had a good game. This is not hustling, If you are not a player, you wouldn't understand. Gary Lutman

 

[1 Lone Wolf]

I dodged a bullet !

I was at the DCC a couple of years ago, I was approached by a guy and he politely asked me if I would like to play some cheap banks. I knew who this fellow was and I politely said no, maybe later. This could have been disaster for me because I always have played not cheap. Question, was Jay trying to hustle me, for I have heard of his bank pool ability ?? Gary

 

[Diamond69]

Dennis thought he was hustling me when he asked me to play even 10 ball.. Wouldn't that of been a great game for you to talk about? I asked him for the break ball in hand playing 10 ball. His eyes lit up like he saw a big turkey dinner. We made the game in the chair, i wasn't hitting balls laying down when we made the game. Just so you know once again I had played 3 matches on the same table and Dennis was there when I gave Tedder the 9 playing 10 ball.... As far as did what he do break the hustlers code?.... The next time you see a top 10 player in the world crying and whining for a buy out please let me know I would like to hear about it.

Rob,
In the scenario, you are right in my opinion. It was a weak move by Dennis. All the other drama aside, I will leave alone as I don't know all the players and their history personally.

But regarding your first statement above, I disagree that he was hustling you by asking to play even. A hustle is playing below your speed to get a game. I doubt Dennis was doing that. Making a game is a negotiation in which he came to you with an offer. You made a counter offer. So in that respect, you won the negotiation. But Dennis asking you for a game even is not a hustle.

Nobody goes into a hall and says...."I'm the best money player in the world, who wants a spot".

 

[btown]

Rob, you haven't always been such an angel yourself and have given me a hard time on here more than once, but in this case I have to agree with you. Dennis was wrong to quit for whatever reason. Granted he still had a chance to win since the score was tied, but that doesn't make it right. He told me he gave you $150 as a settlement. I told him that he got off easy and a fair settlement might have been more like $500. Even though I wasn't involved in the bet (in fact if I had been there I wouldn't have let him make that game with you), I am willing to send you $350 more to settle this with you fairly.

If you send me your address (my e-mail is jayhelfert@yahoo.com) I will send a check to you. I feel bad for Dennis due to the fact that he has been taken advantage of a couple of times and now he doesn't trust the pool players here. That is no excuse for what he did and I stressed that to him. Sometimes you just have to take your lumps and learn from it. Dennis is a great guy and a terrific player and gambler, but he's still young and may make a mistake once in a while. So please cut him some slack. Thanks

I am actually a pool player I have gambled with Gary and Rob but more working now.

And I agree 100% you cannot pull up in the middle of a match, you can ask but if they say no that's it and respect what you got yourself into. I just didn't see the point in bashing Jay for basically making the above comments.

Jay sounded sincere and I don't think he expected you not to take the money but that is just a guess

P.S. Both Rob and Gary were great sports on the table and I enjoyed every minute of it!
Also Rob I don't have 1 problem with you I just think you got out of line going after Jay.

Ok I am done with this thread!

 

[Diamond69]

I am actually a pool player I have gambled with Gary and Rob but more working now.

And I agree 100% you cannot pull up in the middle of a match, you can ask but if they say no that's it and respect what you got yourself into. I just didn't see the point in bashing Jay for basically making the above comments.

Jay sounded sincere and I don't think he expected you not to take the money but that is just a guess

P.S. Both Rob and Gary were great sports on the table and I enjoyed every minute of it!
Also Rob I don't have 1 problem with you I just think you got out of line going after Jay.

Ok I am done with this thread!

agreed^^^^^^^^

 

[uwate]

First id like to say that Rob is completely in the right here and that Ocullo pulled a disgusting move. I actually thought Jay's effort to ship some dough to Rob to settle the matter more fairly was a good gesture.

I wanted to get that out of that way before I chimed in about Chris. Lil Chris is a guy down in Miami that is a bit unusual. Chris LOVES to fire at stone Champions and has the bankroll that a few hundred is really meaningless compared to the experience of gambling with someone like Orcullo, whom Chris knew EXACTLY who he was playing. There was no sneaking up on anyone here and in fact Chris was the one who propositioned the game. Chris told me himself that Orcullo said to him something along the lines of well how are we going to play? to which Chris was like oh EVEN...I dont want any spot!

Whats funny is Chris will rarely get in the box with the locals down here in miami but if a top touring pro like SVB or Corteza would walk in the door in Miami, lil Chris would be the first guy to get up and only want to play even. I don't believe Chris has ever asked for a spot from any top player. I know for a fact that Chris has actually declined getting weight and instead wanted to continue playing even before with other players. What Chris told me personally about playing Orcullo was that after it was over they sat and talked and that Orcullo had invited Chris to come to the phillipines and stay with him while he was there. Lemme tell you, that was worth far more than 200 to Chris.


I do get the point though of what Rob was trying to say. Orcullo is perfectly fine with robbing a willing lamb. The big juicy lamb he thought he had this time around instead was something totally different. Pretty pathetic to whine and beg for a 10% buyout when you matched up piss poor.

I also dont get why anyone on here would call Rob a con artist.

 

[richiebalto]

Can you respond to post #183
And would you say that is any different then playing like a limp biscuit to get a game?
FYI I get a true impression you did "hustle" to get this game and you haven't tried to deny it.
And I am not against a "hustler". But did you get "hustled" back? Or would you say what he did is against the hustlers code of conduct?

Are you serious man, everybody matches up trying to get the best of it, Who do you know that matches up and tries not to get the best of it, NOBODY thats who!

Matching up has nothing to do with sharking someone, these are two totally different things.

Bigman didnt HUSTLE no one to get this game, HE OUT MATCHED UP DENNIS, nothing to do with cheating, sharking or what ever you try to say!

And FYI you dont hustle someone back by quitting in the middle of a set, thats not called hustling, i dont know what you call it but it sure isnt a hustle!

Its the biggest pos move a pool player could pull, in Baltimore and many other places DO would of been in serious trouble after trying this, i can assure you DO would of lost that 1000 if not more!

 

[Banks]

First id like to say that Rob is completely in the right here and that Ocullo pulled a disgusting move. I actually thought Jay's effort to ship some dough to Rob to settle the matter more fairly was a good gesture.

I do get the point though of what Rob was trying to say. Orcullo is perfectly fine with robbing a willing lamb. The big juicy lamb he thought he had this time around instead was something totally different. Pretty pathetic to whine and beg for a 10% buyout when you matched up piss poor.

I also dont get why anyone on here would call Rob a con artist.

From 1P.org to here, Rob is not afraid to say who he is or who he's played. I was also thinking it was a nice gesture on Jay's part to offer the difference on a 'proper' buy-out. Rob may have been a little jaded with Jay from previous experiences, so he said whatever he said. I also agree 110% with a top player like Orcullo robbing people, but showing a bad side when crying like a baby when he's on the wrong side of it. I'd be damn surprised if there's anybody that plays at either of their speeds that's truly dumb enough to give up a ghost spot for $$ without having some gambling experience - that includes giving up the spot and knowing you've got a sucker.

Are you serious man, everybody matches up trying to get the best of it, Who do you know that matches up and tries not to get the best of it, NOBODY thats who!

Matching up has nothing to do with sharking someone, these are two totally different things.

Bigman didnt HUSTLE no one to get this game, HE OUT MATCHED UP DENNIS, nothing to do with cheating, sharking or what ever you try to say!

What he said. If there's anybody that matches up not wanting the best of it, I'll take that action! Just let me know how lopsided you want it and we can work from there. :thumbup: The only time I'm putting myself in that position is when I'm playing with friends and to me it's practice out-running the nuts.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

First id like to say that Rob is completely in the right here and that Ocullo pulled a disgusting move. I actually thought Jay's effort to ship some dough to Rob to settle the matter more fairly was a good gesture.

I wanted to get that out of that way before I chimed in about Chris. Lil Chris is a guy down in Miami that is a bit unusual. Chris LOVES to fire at stone Champions and has the bankroll that a few hundred is really meaningless compared to the experience of gambling with someone like Orcullo, whom Chris knew EXACTLY who he was playing. There was no sneaking up on anyone here and in fact Chris was the one who propositioned the game. Chris told me himself that Orcullo said to him something along the lines of well how are we going to play? to which Chris was like oh EVEN...I dont want any spot!

Whats funny is Chris will rarely get in the box with the locals down here in miami but if a top touring pro like SVB or Corteza would walk in the door in Miami, lil Chris would be the first guy to get up and only want to play even. I don't believe Chris has ever asked for a spot from any top player. I know for a fact that Chris has actually declined getting weight and instead wanted to continue playing even before with other players. What Chris told me personally about playing Orcullo was that after it was over they sat and talked and that Orcullo had invited Chris to come to the phillipines and stay with him while he was there. Lemme tell you, that was worth far more than 200 to Chris.


I do get the point though of what Rob was trying to say. Orcullo is perfectly fine with robbing a willing lamb. The big juicy lamb he thought he had this time around instead was something totally different. Pretty pathetic to whine and beg for a 10% buyout when you matched up piss poor.

I also dont get why anyone on here would call Rob a con artist.

Thanks for clearing that up uwate. Apparently Rob's example to illustrate a part of Dennis's MO just sprung a leak. Regardless, I'd be pretty pissed too if what happened to Rob had happened to me.

 

[scsuxci]

When a guy is playing one of the best gamblers on the planet,
there's no hustle but responsibility to finish what was started.
Playing game after game after game,Dennis must of thought
he had a chance at some point.
If the guy was shooting off his thumb or between his toes,really
doesn't matter.Dennis is seasoned and one of the greats
and no matter how you look at it,Dennis is in the wrong.

Everyone that gambles always looks for an edge.I've never seen a guy
look for action where he's going to lose his shirt,unless he's brain dead.

It was up to the Pro(Dennis) to evaluate the situation and make the proper
decision.Well....he didn't and didn't even quit right away.

Why wait till that far into the set if you felt like you were being played?