Push-Out Rules

[Jimmy M.]

It's been so long since I've seen this played, and I don't even know if I was born yet when these were the standard rules, but I have a question about the two-shot shootout rules. After you push, can your opponent push right back? I'm thinking that the answer is yes and that now you're both just on one foul and you'd either shoot or pass it back from there. Is that correct?

 

[JAM]

Jimmy, I think the push-out is very similar to current-day norm of a push-out after the break. The opponent has the opportunity to either shoot the shot or decline the push-out. The player who pushed out must shoot the shot and/or make a good hit.

At the Trump's Marina 10-Ball Challenge in 2003, which was won by Canadian Danny Hewitt, they modified the push-out format a bit in the rules for this event. If a player pushed out at any time during the game and the opponent declined to shoot it, then the player MUST pocket the ball or else the opponent got ball in hand.

It is my understanding that this traditional 9-ball format of two-shot/push-out was changed because it was felt that for TV purposes this type of format slowed things down. Thus, a new 9-ball game was born.

JAM

 

[pete lafond]

It's been so long since I've seen this played, and I don't even know if I was born yet when these were the standard rules, but I have a question about the two-shot shootout rules. After you push, can your opponent push right back? I'm thinking that the answer is yes and that now you're both just on one foul and you'd either shoot or pass it back from there. Is that correct?

No, but you may have an interesting concept. Allow players following the opening break to push out without BIH and get penalized one foul. Add to this, call all shots and you've got some good game rules.

 

[Black-Balled]

I certainly have played it that way before- where my opponent pushed, then I pushed right back- it was lots of fun! We shot around for like 10 minutes without ever making a good hit.

 

[pete lafond]

I certainly have played it that way before- where my opponent pushed, then I pushed right back- it was lots of fun! We shot around for like 10 minutes without ever making a good hit.

Do you think if you were penalized a foul each push out it would have changed things? Keep in mind after the original shooter pushed once, he only has one more push before losing by foul.

 

[stevelomako]

There were two ways to play push-out.

Two fouls in a row.

Two fouls by the same player.

It ends up being different games safety wise, in two by the same player, the player that pushes back (your example) can wind up being hooked by the other player and then needs to kick/jump at the ball to avoid giving ball-in-hand.

The chance to string more racks together was/is always greater playing two foul because you didn't/won't get penalized for being aggressive trying to break balls up which leads to more run-outs.


The demise of two foul nine ball took away alot of banking in nine ball and took away spot shots completely.

I guess one foul was supposed to speed up the game (what a joke) and also make the weaker player have a chance (another joke).

 

[pete lafond]

There were two ways to play push-out.

Two fouls in a row.

Two fouls by the same player.

It ends up being different games safety wise, in two by the same player, the player that pushes back (your example) can wind up being hooked by the other player and then needs to kick/jump at the ball to avoid giving ball-in-hand.

The chance to string more racks together was/is always greater playing two foul because you didn't/won't get penalized for being aggressive trying to break balls up which leads to more run-outs.


The demise of two foul nine ball took away alot of banking in nine ball and took away spot shots completely.

I guess one foul was supposed to speed up the game (what a joke) and also make the weaker player have a chance (another joke).

Great points Steve.

 

[Jimmy M.]

It ends up being different games safety wise, in two by the same player, the player that pushes back (your example) can wind up being hooked by the other player and then needs to kick/jump at the ball to avoid giving ball-in-hand.

So some people did play that, after a push, you could push back?

 

[Jimmy M.]

I certainly have played it that way before- where my opponent pushed, then I pushed right back- it was lots of fun! We shot around for like 10 minutes without ever making a good hit.

The way I understand the rules, two fouls in a row by the same player would be BIH for their opponent.

Anyway, I actually like the idea of playing by the push-out rules. The concept that a guy can miss a ball by two diamonds and then get rewarded for (by hooking their opponent, for example) it is a bit of a joke.

 

[nfty9er]

In the old days or old school

So some people did play that, after a push, you could push back?

Never played push back, either you took shot or gave it back. NO FOUL.
In the old days there was no 3 foul rule so it made no difference. There was no bih either. That was why the 2 push out was fun and fair. Better than bih IMO.

 

[stevelomako]

So some people did play that, after a push, you could push back?

Correct.

If you were playing 2 fouls by the SAME PLAYER, you could push, I could take the shot and push back (we'd both be on 1 foul then) and you could take the shot and hook me (with a legal hit)...I would have to hit the ball then....if I didn't...YOU HAVE BALL IN HAND ANYWHERE.



With 2 fouls by ANY PLAYER, if I pushed out.....the next shot (by whomever takes it) must be a legal hit or it's BALL IN HAND ANYWHERE for the other player.

 

[stevelomako]

Anyway, I actually like the idea of playing by the push-out rules. The concept that a guy can miss a ball by two diamonds and then get rewarded for (by hooking their opponent, for example) it is a bit of a joke.

Anybody that can play a little bit would agree with you.



If you play both for a while, I think you'll find that 2 fouls by any player is a better game, you'd find out real soon why I say that.



Shoot I'll just tell you now........if you play 2 by the same player and you push....I can take the shot and hook you, then you'd have to hit the ball (cause you're on 1 foul) or give up ball-in-hand to me.

With 2 by any player...if you push and I take the shot (or let you shoot) and hook you...the slate is clean because I made a legal hit and you could push again.

 

[frankncali]

Correct.

If you were playing 2 fouls by the SAME PLAYER, you could push, I could take the shot and push back (we'd both be on 1 foul then) and you could take the shot and hook me (with a legal hit)...I would have to hit the ball then....if I didn't...YOU HAVE BALL IN HAND ANYWHERE.



With 2 fouls by ANY PLAYER, if I pushed out.....the next shot (by whomever takes it) must be a legal hit or it's BALL IN HAND ANYWHERE for the other player.

Steve

Never heard of the second version ( 2 fouls by any player). That could get really interesting but I dont see myself playing it anytime soon.
In the south or at least around Dothan Al players would play what we called "2 shot roll out". Basically the same as your 2 foul by the same guy.
First player can push and then the second guy has option of shooting or giving it back. He had these options only. I cant remember anyone ever pushing right back. IMO that would take the original guy "off" of being on a foul. We had it as two consecutive shots. If the other guy shot then he was not on "one".
In your way how many shots would it carry. If you push on the 1 ball playing me you would be on "one". What happens if I make the one but play safe on the 2. Are you still on "one"?

 

[Louis Ulrich]

The way I understand the rules, two fouls in a row by the same player would be BIH for their opponent.

Anyway, I actually like the idea of playing by the push-out rules. The concept that a guy can miss a ball by two diamonds and then get rewarded for (by hooking their opponent, for example) it is a bit of a joke.

I played with these rules only once in my life and I swore it would be the last. It was against Bakersfield Bob and he robbed me at it. The rules that we played by were that the shooter had the option to push out at any time and the incoming player could accept the shot or decline, just like today's after the break push out. There was no option for the incoming player to push back.

I though along the same lines as you that it would be a better game for the best player where the guy who misses and gets lucky wouldn't be able to get ball in hand for a bs hook. What happened to me was that my opponent kept hooking himself and was able to just push out of it. I was never able to get ball in hand. My safties were worthless because he would again just push out of it. It's a much different strategy and I believe the player who is most familiar with the game will prevail most of the time.

We switched to Texas Express and I got even just as fast as I got stuck, just to give you an idea of what a difference it made for me.

 

[pete lafond]

I played with these rules only once in my life and I swore it would be the last. It was against Bakersfield Bob and he robbed me at it. The rules that we played by were that the shooter had the option to push out at any time and the incoming player could accept the shot or decline, just like today's after the break push out. There was no option for the incoming player to push back.

I though along the same lines as you that it would be a better game for the best player where the guy who misses and gets lucky wouldn't be able to get ball in hand for a bs hook. What happened to me was that my opponent kept hooking himself and was able to just push out of it. I was never able to get ball in hand. My safties were worthless because he would again just push out of it. It's a much different strategy and I believe the player who is most familiar with the game will prevail most of the time.

We switched to Texas Express and I got even just as fast as I got stuck, just to give you an idea of what a difference it made for me.

I would not be a fan of a push out at any time except after the opening break. I am in favor of a push out up to two times or at which time a called ball has been pocketed. (Yes, I believe 9 ball should be call pocket, no ball in hand if missed - I also mean 9 ball on the break should be called) Each push should be considered a foul making the third a loss of game.

Given these rules, in my opinion 9 ball would still have some TV appeal but more importantly skill becomes more noticeable.
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[Cornerman]

It's been so long since I've seen this played, and I don't even know if I was born yet when these were the standard rules, but I have a question about the two-shot shootout rules. After you push, can your opponent push right back? I'm thinking that the answer is yes and that now you're both just on one foul and you'd either shoot or pass it back from there. Is that correct?

Interesting. The nation is full of house rules.

If it means anything, the 1977 BCA rulebook is clear. Whoever comes in to shoot the shot after pushout must make a legal hit or else it's full table ball-in-hand.

Obviously, I'd take the word of, say, Grady or Keith on how they played it.


Fred

 

[pete lafond]

Interesting. The nation is full of house rules.

If it means anything, the 1977 BCA rulebook is clear. Whoever comes in to shoot the shot after pushout must make a legal hit or else it's full table ball-in-hand.

Obviously, I'd take the word of, say, Grady or Keith on how they played it.


Fred

There are many rule books to pick from and the BCA is just one of them. It would be nice to all these organizations to come together and vote on some real pool governing body and define one set everyone plays by.

I like the discussions and opinions of the many players likes, dislikes and ideas. Right now many of these ideas can not be proven as potential successes, just more mental masturbation. But I do like the multiple pushout.

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[Bob Jewett]

It's been so long since I've seen this played, and I don't even know if I was born yet when these were the standard rules, but I have a question about the two-shot shootout rules. ...

The way it was played around here was that any two consecutive fouls gave up ball in hand, and after the first foul, you could pass the shot back to the fouler. At that time, balls pocketed illegally usually spotted, so there were a lot of tough hits to make after scratches. There were variations like only money balls spotted.

 

[Snapshot9]

The original push-out

When 2 foul push-out was in effect before 1 foul ball in hand rules was that
the push out had to be a legal hit, and you had to hit a rail for it to be considered legal, not like today where you can roll the cue ball anywhere without hitting a rail. 2 foul push out was a good game, the psychology of it was very intriguing at times, and in that game, it didn't take long at all to know if you were in deep do-do or not.

If you were left with a push-out, and knew you could not make the shot, and turned it back to your opponent, and he makes it, it would dawn on you that you might be swimming with sharks.