Push shot foul?

[Bob Jewett]

I just set two shots up - one with a tiny gap and one frozen - and I couldn’t see a big difference in the ball reaction. What should I be looking for?

I don't think you can tell whether they were frozen or not after the hit. I was just saying that if the balls are not frozen as checked beforehand, and the cue ball flies immediately down the table close to the object ball, it was a double hit, and that you shouldn't be looking for chalk spots.

 

[JPB2]

I just set two shots up - one with a tiny gap and one frozen - and I couldn’t see a big difference in the ball reaction. What should I be looking for?

Listen.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I know it is a rule in American pool, but what is the rationale for push shots to be legal when balls are frozen?

Suppose the cue ball is frozen to the six ball which is next in a game of nine ball. What kind of shot should be allowed? Like snooker, where you can shoot away from the ball and get credit for having hit it? You get ball in hand anywhere? The ball is removed and you shoot at the next one? You have to use at least a 45-degree elevation? Grady's rule was that you had to shoot the shot "with character". Really.

If you are going to remove the "OK to shoot at a frozen ball" rule, you have to put something else in. What would you like to see?

(It's not a push shot by the definition in the rules. A push shot is something else that requires a very special stroke.)

 

[MattPoland]

I like sharing this 22 second clip to illustrate why it’s not a push.

✂️ Frozen Shot Rules and Footage

21 seconds · Clipped by Matt Poland · Original video "FROZEN CUE BALL SHOTS … Everything You Need to Know" by DrDaveBilliards

youtube.com

 

[Bob Jewett]

Listen.

That often gives the wrong answer -- in both directions.

 

[GideonF]

I like sharing this 22 second clip to illustrate why it’s not a push.

✂️ Frozen Shot Rules and Footage

21 seconds · Clipped by Matt Poland · Original video "FROZEN CUE BALL SHOTS … Everything You Need to Know" by DrDaveBilliards

youtube.com

This is a great clip of why it’s not a double hit but it doesn’t show the difference between a legal shot into a frozen ball and an illegal push shot. Lots of people apparently (including Karl Boyes it seems) think it’s a push. Do you know of a clip showing the actual illegal push technique?

 

[JPB2]

Thing is you can play this shot legal way and ilegal way with both ways doing

Check Dr Dave’s site for videos. And the one above. Push shot and double hit are different. Dr Dave’s site linked a Mike page video too.

 

[JPB2]

That often gives the wrong answer -- in both directions.

I’d like to hear more. But the post said that there wasn’t a noticeable difference in cueball movement on the frozen ball vs a small gap. I agree, but one is a foul and one not. I also agree that if you are saying the better way to call it is cueball movement. But, isn’t it also true that the sound with the small gap is often way different than the frozen balls? That is with just shooting through in both situations.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I know it is a rule in American pool, but what is the rationale for push shots to be legal when balls are frozen?

*When Frozen Only* The rationale is it's not actually a "push" or a "double hit". There is only one contact, and the contact is normal like hitting a regular shot. This has been proven with high speed camera footage.

 

[SlateMan]

Okay, I have the definitive answer here! I uploaded the video to ChatGPT and asked it whether this was a legal hit. ChatGPT said "Rosebud," so there you have the correct answer.

 

[straightline]

Entrapment by referee.
Should be expressly forbidden and this one fined.

 

[MattPoland]

This is a great clip of why it’s not a double hit but it doesn’t show the difference between a legal shot into a frozen ball and an illegal push shot. Lots of people apparently (including Karl Boyes it seems) think it’s a push. Do you know of a clip showing the actual illegal push technique?

You’re right it doesn’t show the illegal technique. At that point I just quote the rules:

3.8 PUSH SHOT
It is a foul to prolong tip-to-cue-ball contact beyond that seen in normal shots.

And then point out in the video you see the tip, cueball and object ball all immediately separate. The tip-to-cue-ball contact time is exactly in line with the timing seen in normal shots. And that a real “push” is basically resting the tip on the ball then shoving.

 

[Island Drive]

I just set two shots up - one with a tiny gap and one frozen - and I couldn’t see a big difference in the ball reaction. What should I be looking for?

If there's a gap on the OP shot, CB should not go the same speed as the object ball.
Even if the gap was lets say 1/8 of an inch and you didn't know it, the ball actions after contact would be very similar to a slight gap.
So calling the shot not frozen would tell the shooter to not do what Pongers attempted.

 

[David in FL]

I just set two shots up - one with a tiny gap and one frozen - and I couldn’t see a big difference in the ball reaction. What should I be looking for?

Nothing. If the balls are frozen it's good. If they're not, it's a foul.

It's that simple.

 

[GideonF]

If there's a gap on the OP shot, CB should not go the same speed as the object ball.
Even if the gap was lets say 1/8 of an inch and you didn't know it, the ball actions after contact would be very similar to a slight gap.
So calling the shot not frozen would tell the shooter to not do what Pongers attempted.

I understand why it’s a foul if there is a gap and why it’s legal if no gap. I had thought Bob J was suggesting that you could tell from the ball reaction if they were frozen and couldn’t see it so I asked what to look for. Bob responded that I misunderstood and there is nothing to look for.

 

[westcoast]

*When Frozen Only* The rationale is it's not actually a "push" or a "double hit". There is only one contact, and the contact is normal like hitting a regular shot. This has been proven with high speed camera footage.

that makes sense. However, in this particular instance, it sure looked like he pushed through and therefore double hit

 

[GideonF]

that makes sense. However, in this particular instance, it sure looked like he pushed through and therefore double hit

This is just wrong IMO. Shooting into a frozen ball with this stroke can’t produce a double hit. Look at the short video from Dr Dave that Matt Poland posted you can see why.

You CAN push foul a frozen ball, but not with that stroke IMO.

 

[straightline]

Did either ref explain WTF?

 

[BeiberLvr]

I like sharing this 22 second clip to illustrate why it’s not a push.

✂️ Frozen Shot Rules and Footage

21 seconds · Clipped by Matt Poland · Original video "FROZEN CUE BALL SHOTS … Everything You Need to Know" by DrDaveBilliards

youtube.com

To me, it sounds like there is a slight difference in the sound of the shot played by Dr. Dave and the shot played by Quinten.

Dr. Dave's shot is more muffled.

Quinten's shot has more of a hollow sound.

Could just be my ears though.

 

[iusedtoberich]

@Bob Jewett was right, of course

I went to the pool hall tonight but I was too lazy to set up the camera I set up the balls both frozen, and a hair apart, maybe .5mm. I shot both versions head on with draw, center, and follow. Fast speed on all.

The follow version I couldn't tell the difference in appearance. Just like Bob said, the CB looked about the same in both versions. In the frozen version, it even caught up to the OB and hit it again, again as Bob said. There was a slight difference in sound and stick feel, but not enough to be definitive.

The draw had the biggest difference between the two. And the center hit somewhere in the middle.

Based on this new-to-me knowledge that the follow frozen version looks the same as a double-hit foul, I'm changing my answer to:

Ref declared balls frozen. Player smartly played a legal shot to ride the 9. Ref was not properly trained for WPA American Pool and was going by blackball/snooker/carom rules instead.