Quarter ball aiming system?

[Slider]

Do you then move your eye/head, in relation to the cue, as the aiming point changes? If you didn't, you wouldn't get your overlapping image. It would be distorted unless you moved your eye position.

No, at least I don't think so. I only use the arc - a particular place on that ball edge silhouette - in order to let me know where those two balls have to meet. The arc just happened to be something that my eye can see more readily. I tend to play in a more upright stance - like Danny Diberto's - so I would never actually see the overlap as shown in the diagram, it's just a means of determining where to send the cueball. Since the cueball is closer to the eye, and always appears larger, the view would be distorted even if I was a chin-on-the-cue player.

Once I have determined the place to send the cueball, things become a mishmash of estimations; cloth speed, ball "stiction", cueball swerve and deflection due to english and cueball speed, etc. It's a wonder I can make a ball.

Ken

 

[Da Poet]

Here's how I do it...
View attachment 35545
From the shooting position, I look at a point (green) on the arc at the top edge of the OB directly above the "aim" point (red), and match that with the corresponding spot on the arc on the cueball.
View attachment 35546
That gives me an image of two overlapping balls. It's an outgrowth of "Ghost Ball", I suppose.

Ken

I noticed something interesting last night about the geometric situation with cue ball vs object ball. I use the lense system myself, but I just stumbled across this. I don't know how this can be visually applied, but I think it is important to be aware of.

 

[Pete]

I wanted to say thanks for all the advise guys. I am having a lesson with Scott Lee in March and he will go over S.A.M. with me. He said it is very close to it.

I hope it helps me with my aim when I'm not hitting them so good...


Pete

 

[TheConArtist]

S.A.M is a great system, and do use it up to a #3 cut but 4,5,6th are hard for me to see the aim point, so for those i use the Pivot system as i can see the contact points, so its easier to use the pivot system, as when i pivot to center cueball i can see the aim point. You must update after your lesson and let us know what you think of it.

 

[Vahmurka]

S.A.M is a great system
You must update after your lesson and let us know what you think of it.

Yeah, right, Pete, hope you update here and introduce the likes of myself, who are far from all these aiming systems due to lack of good knowledge base, to what S.A.M is overall and how you feel about it after studying.
GL practicing!

 

[BRKNRUN]

CA;

I believe the Aim and Pivot or BHE systems (if thats the right word), is not an aiming system, but a system for applying english in certain situations. Applying english and aiming, although related, are different concerns. OMHO, FWIW.

Mike

BHE is mainly used for applying english.....(Back Hand English)

There is a Aim & Pivot system that is used for aiming shots.

They are two different things. There are a few different Aim & Pivot systems...(To me all seem to equate down to the 3-line system when your done with all the aiming and pivoting)

I am not an expert at Aim & Pivot (I only use it for one shot), but I believe typically the process is you aim your cue through the CB somewhere "off center"....then you pivot your cue to center CB

Hal Houle teaches a method he refers to as Shis-Ke-Bob.....I was never able to fully grasp this method for all shots as I am more comfortable useing the center CB as much as I can for shots.

But there are some people that can use this system that are very effective with it.

 

[jondrums]

I noticed something interesting last night about the geometric situation with cue ball vs object ball...

WOW! that is very interesting! I have no idea how to apply that on the table, but its cool none-the-less.

On this subject, I have found that when I do use the quarterball aiming system (actually fairly rarely), that I do not have an image of overlapping balls at all. I have found that my vision does not allow me to see both balls in focus, and I don't think anyone's vision would, unless you either close one eye, or are blind in one eye. If I focus on the OB, I can see two CB's, and vice versa if I focus on the CB. Regardless, I have never been able to get low enough to the table to actually see the two balls overlap anyway!

What I do instead, is try to aim the center of the CB (and thus the cue stick) straight through "a spot" on (or just off) the OB. For a 1/2 ball hit this spot is the edge of the OB. For 1/4 ball hit, its just off the edge a bit, for a 3/4, its halfway between the edge and the center of the OB.

Jon

 

[Da Poet]

WOW! that is very interesting! I have no idea how to apply that on the table, but its cool none-the-less.

On this subject, I have found that when I do use the quarterball aiming system (actually fairly rarely), that I do not have an image of overlapping balls at all. I have found that my vision does not allow me to see both balls in focus, and I don't think anyone's vision would, unless you either close one eye, or are blind in one eye. If I focus on the OB, I can see two CB's, and vice versa if I focus on the CB. Regardless, I have never been able to get low enough to the table to actually see the two balls overlap anyway!

What I do instead, is try to aim the center of the CB (and thus the cue stick) straight through "a spot" on (or just off) the OB. For a 1/2 ball hit this spot is the edge of the OB. For 1/4 ball hit, its just off the edge a bit, for a 3/4, its halfway between the edge and the center of the OB.

Jon

Thanks for the compliment!

Yeah, I haven't found any use for it really either. I've been messing around with CAD diagrams, looking for patterns that help add to the mental picture of different shots. Like you, I have certain shots I use as reference except I call them 15,30,45, and 60 degree shots instead of 1/4,1/2 and so on. I feel that this allows me to naturally compensate for throw.

Since I wear glasses, my periferal vision and depth perception aren't doing me any favors when it comes to determining angles and I have been looking for patterns to help with this. One other thing I found interesting is that a 2 1/4 dia ball from edge to edge is exactly 5 degrees wide from 25 3/4 inches away which is just 3/4 inches more than two diamonds on a nine foot table. This comes in handy for me picturing those longer side pocket shots when there's not a lot to visually latch on to. It helps me to assign a number to the angle of the shot before I get down on the shot and let my depth perception start playing tricks with me. I'm still experimenting with this stuff and I'm not sure if it's worthwhile for everyone, but it's kind of interesting.

 

[TheConArtist]

BHE is mainly used for applying english.....(Back Hand English)

There is a Aim & Pivot system that is used for aiming shots.

They are two different things. There are a few different Aim & Pivot systems...(To me all seem to equate down to the 3-line system when your done with all the aiming and pivoting)

I am not an expert at Aim & Pivot (I only use it for one shot), but I believe typically the process is you aim your cue through the CB somewhere "off center"....then you pivot your cue to center CB

Hal Houle teaches a method he refers to as Shis-Ke-Bob.....I was never able to fully grasp this method for all shots as I am more comfortable useing the center CB as much as I can for shots.

But there are some people that can use this system that are very effective with it.

From my understanding the Aim and Pivot is the same method of the ShishKaBob system just a different name, correct me if i am wrong here. As you aim then pivot to center cueball.

And to the Original poster the reason i said BHE as for the pivot system is you do use your backhand to pivot, yes it is for applying english so i shouldn't have said it though so therefore i am sorry.

Ron Vitello teaches a similiar method as rather then using your back hand to pivot the cue, you move your hips this way you head movement doesn't move from the cue. From what me and Ron talked about it does work for me but i can't see myself swaying my behind left or right while shooting in front a crowd Nowadays i am working on a system that i can just get down over the cueball without addressing the cueballs half and pivoting. If i need a center cueball hit i got it, but for using english simple just aim center cueball then BHE.

Mike Sigel mention'd on the IPT event on t.v. and said people always ask him how he aims, his advice was simple. Just pay attention on how much or what part of the cueball hits the objectball. Not much of advice or great advice just depends on how you look at it.

 

[TheConArtist]

Thanks for the compliment!

Yeah, I haven't found any use for it really either. I've been messing around with CAD diagrams, looking for patterns that help add to the mental picture of different shots. Like you, I have certain shots I use as reference except I call them 15,30,45, and 60 degree shots instead of 1/4,1/2 and so on. I feel that this allows me to naturally compensate for throw.

Since I wear glasses, my periferal vision and depth perception aren't doing me any favors when it comes to determining angles and I have been looking for patterns to help with this. One other thing I found interesting is that a 2 1/4 dia ball from edge to edge is exactly 5 degrees wide from 25 3/4 inches away which is just 3/4 inches more than two diamonds on a nine foot table. This comes in handy for me picturing those longer side pocket shots when there's not a lot to visually latch on to. It helps me to assign a number to the angle of the shot before I get down on the shot and let my depth perception start playing tricks with me. I'm still experimenting with this stuff and I'm not sure if it's worthwhile for everyone, but it's kind of interesting.

This is interesting for me as when i first started playing pool i wore glasses, and shot great with them. I had some glasses that were big but then changed up to some small glasses, but also got contacts so the glasses are for when i take'em out. But now when i try and play pool at the house with the glasses i can't at all, i have to either keep my head really high on cue or hold my head different to see the objectball if its far away from the cueball. Plus they also bug my nose also I love my contacts but wouldn't mind getting my eyes done.

I have experimented with everything there might be on aiming, and come to find that all the systems boil down to the same thing, and you must be aligned with the shot for them to work, and have a good stroke. So what i do is make shure i am in aligned perfect with the shot while standing, as if i do this the aiming is simple, rather then trying to get in align while down over the cueball ain't so easy as you might have to stand back up.

 

[breakin8]

I use Hal system and It work on all shots. Some shots with side spin you must adjust for but not as much one would think. The harder the ball is to pocket the better Hal's system loves the thin cut the off angle shots the long staight ins and back cuts the side pocket cuts.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Sure. Let's take this into perspective...I'm assuming if you have a cut, you'll recognize that it is a 1/4 ball hit and shoot it. Sounds easy enough. Next you'll recognize one that is between a 1/4 and a 1/2...take the middle (3/8 or whatever) and shoot it....sure that will work, but are all of these extra steps nessisary when basically you are saying "use the ghost ball" only with more explaining rather than just saying it? Occams razor; cut out the extra...look it up; it's brilliant.

I don't know this from experience or anything, but also, wouldn't you develope quite a habbit of hitting the 1/4 hit? What if you want to cheat the pocket, it seems as if it might actually become difficult to NOT hit an exact 1/4 ball hit after so much repition. I am also wondering if you will always be hitting the heart of the pocket this way, or if you'll just be pocketing the ball by recognizing a small range that you can perform a 1/4 hit and make.

Basically, why would I explain this to a new player rather than saying get the contact point and hit it... This system seems to be making things harder than they are. Maybe it's just me...

Hal's quarter ball aiming system is a point of reference to get you started. You make valid points if you read his system and then only stick to the 3 angles he mentioned - you'd never go anywhere. If you really practice the system and put a lot of time into it, your mind will begin to immediately recognize in-between angles and make the necessary adjustment.

Since you mentioned Occams Razor, I'll throw it your way. Why use a ghost ball and aim in 3-dimensions (requiring size/depth perception of the CB to the OB) when you can aim in 2-dimensions w/ the Houle system, quarter-ball or whatever you want to call it?

Freddy's Banking w/ the Beard book had a good story about a straight pool player they called Sailor (don't flame me if I get the name wrong, I haven't read the first chapter in a long time--- amazing book btw, make sure you get it) who used to cut the OB into 17 slices instead of 4. Apparently this guy ran 300's a lot.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right - aiming systems have different values to different people. I'm just saying that system is not garbage.

 

[PKM]

What I don't get about this kind of system is how you are able to see the overlap between the OB and CB. Even if your stance is very low over the CB, it seems to me you're still not low enough to see how it overlaps the OB.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

What I don't get about this kind of system is how you are able to see the overlap between the OB and CB. Even if your stance is very low over the CB, it seems to me you're still not low enough to see how it overlaps the OB.

Honestly, that's the hardest part of the system. I get really low when I shoot and I had a hard time at first. The diagrams in this thread show the relation, but don't expect to see a virtual 'overlap' of the balls. I see the outline of the OB (the visual face of the OB) and move that outline to the right or left respectively and shoot the CB into the "circle". Hope that makes sense.

 

[Cornerman]

What I don't get about this kind of system is how you are able to see the overlap between the OB and CB. Even if your stance is very low over the CB, it seems to me you're still not low enough to see how it overlaps the OB.

That's the beauty of Hal Houle's system. He recognized how difficult it is to see overlapping balls, with one ball smaller than the other due to perspective. So many of his aiming systems deal with aiming to a point on the object ball with a point from the cueball. Some of them are aiming systems using the stick through a point on the cueball to the point on the cueball.

The SAM method (supplemental aiming method) that the SPF teachers use is an expansion of the quarter-ball fractional aiming that's been taught by snooker players and such for decades. I don't know if they take the aiming to the degree that Hal Houle does, but I know that one of the reasons why they teach it is because of Hal's demonstration of his systems.


Fred

 

[LAMas]

What I do instead, is try to aim the center of the CB (and thus the cue stick) straight through "a spot" on (or just off) the OB. For a 1/2 ball hit this spot is the edge of the OB. For 1/4 ball hit, its just off the edge a bit, for a 3/4, its halfway between the edge and the center of the OB.

Jon

FInally someone that aims like I do.

The straight in shot is center of the CB (center ball) to the center of the OB and the 90 degree cut is 1/2 the OB (one radius) to the right of 3:00 O'clock or left of 9:00 O'clock. The other way I look at it is to double the distance from the center of the OB to where the line to the pocket enters/exits the OB. The same 90 degree cut is double the distance from the center of the OB to a point 1/2 the diameter of the OB the 3:00 edge or 9:00 O'clock edge or double the distance from the center of the OB to the edge where the line to the pocket enters/exits the OB.

 

[scottycoyote]

I agree completely. To the point that aiming systems really don't have much effect on the long term outcome of the player. I am basically saying that if I were going to teach a beginner, I would teach them what is the fastest to explain... There are so many systems, but a lot of them are similar...and in the end no substitute for experience.

I see how my first post must have sounded, my fault. We should be square now.

im a big fan of SAM, its freed up my mind in my game to work on other things. I dont know if youve actually tried the system or not......id be curious to know the answer.
As for teaching new players.....my gf has been wanting to learn lately and ive been teaching her things a step at at time....stance, bridge, stroke. I first introduced aiming to her using the ghost ball, just putting the cueball on the object ball where it needs to be to make the ball, then telling her to hit it there. Sometimes she would make a ball and sometimes she would be so far off id wonder what she was aiming at. Well after several nights of practice i introduced SAM to her and i have to say the results were truly amazing.....she was making a good 60% more shots, and a few 4 and 5 ball runs(8ball) which was definitely not the norm for her. I agree everybody learns differently, some things are more valid for certain people, all i know is SAM works great for me and it made a huge improvement in my beginner gf's game. If something could improve your game that much, wouldnt it make how you end up as a pool player at least get here quicker....thats if you assume you reach a point where you know it all and theres nothing left to learn (which i dont believe in pool).

 

[Vahmurka]

Could you tell me which is TRUE Hal Houle's aiming syste? I tried to search the Net for an answer, and even found Hal's words on it. It was on some forum (Billiards Digest I suppose) and looked like that:
John Doe: blah-blah-blah
Hal Houle: okay, but that's not my system
And he never explained it, he had a reason for that I think.
So I still can't figure it out.
Same Hal was talking about SAM, quarter-aiming etc - that his system is different. Where?! I wonder.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Could you tell me which is TRUE Hal Houle's aiming system? ...

Hal Houle has many systems, so you start from a false premise. The best person to ask is Hal himself. He has posted his phone number -- the new one in Pennsylvania (I think). Unfortunately, it might be expensive to call him from your house in Russia. He welcomes inquiries and does not charge for his advice.

 

[Vahmurka]

thanks Bob, but you are right about international phone call cost Did Hal probably post his e-mail (since he's been using the forums)?