Question about Allison Fisher's stroke.

Shawn Armstrong said:
I personally think SPF is a pile of HOOEY. People all operate at different tempos. Some shoot fast, some shoot slow. I come from the Jimmy Reid school. Always keep the cue moving. Excessive pauses cause excessive tension. Tension is bad. "FAST AND LOOSE", like Eddie said.
If you think SPF is a pile of HOOEY, then why are you tying to explain it here? People do operate at different tempo, I agree. But that has nothing to do with S-P-F. Excessive pauses and tension are bad, I agree. So why do you believe S-P-F is a pile of HOOEY?:confused:
 
DoomCue said:
I agree with you that tension is bad, but disagree that excessive pauses cause excessive tension. If anything, having a pause at the top of the backswing DECREASES tension as it allows a definite transition between the triceps and biceps. In other words, those muscles CANNOT fight against each other if there's a defined pause. It's physically impossible to always keep the cue moving - there's always a pause, no matter how slight, at the end of the backswing. SPF simply teaches to be aware of that pause and allow a transition between the triceps and biceps. We don't teach "you have to have a 1.3 second pause" or anything like that.

SPF has nothing to do with shooting fast or shooting slow.

-djb

Hi David,

I would modify your remarks to the extent that it is POSSIBLE to create tension during the pause...grabbing down with the grip...or just in general, tensing up prior to the final forward stroke.

But of course among the PURPOSES of the Pause includes a conscious relaxing so if a person does tense up during the pause, they are not executing that essential purpose.

And contrary to "fast and loose" being the end all/be all approach (although it works fine for some) it is AT LEAST as likely that the player will tense up...grab down etc. at the back of a stroke that does not include an intentional, distinct pause.

Regards,
Jim
 
Same-same.

av84fun said:
That is incorrect. I don't think it would be inappropriate to quote briefly from Scott's manual for this purpose.

"The Finish is the end result of the stroke. Simply by moving the cue stick to the finish position, the stroke is completed with proper follow-through."

"Holding the Finish position for a brief moment is called the FREEZE....The FREEZE is a diagnostic tool."

Clearly, while related, Finish and Freeze are two different things.

Regards,
Jim
We are saying the same thing here. How am I "incorrect"? I have the Cue Tech manual and I read it quite often. Also, I don't agree with attacking another poster simply because you cannot convince them you are right. We all have different opinions and we all have something to contribute. Not one of us has all of the answers. Take what you like and leave the rest.
 
Cornerman said:
I think it's a good idea for the vast majority of players. Then again, so is practicing. So is taking lessons from a competent instructor.

There are some things that make the pause more comfortable. Seek instruction.

Buddy Hall is the most pronounced, but many male pros have some kind of pause back there. A pretty high percentage of snooker male pros do as well.

I would recommend it to a beginner.

Fred
I am replying to this message but would like to thank ALL for the information, and especially for responding so quickly.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
She pauses just before she hits the cueball. I don't know about you, but I hit the cueball on my frontswing, not my backswing. So, I'm guessing he's talking about the pause at the transition between the front and back swing. When I took my BCA lessons, they taught me this was the PAUSE position.

Now, go ahead and tell me I'm wrong again.

Shawn, you misread Jim's post. He was simply answering someone else's post about the front pause, which Jim pointed out correctly is the SET portion of SPF.

Fred
 
av84fun said:
Hi David,

I would modify your remarks to the extent that it is POSSIBLE to create tension during the pause...grabbing down with the grip...or just in general, tensing up prior to the final forward stroke.
Sure, but that can be a problem no matter what school of stroke is being used. SPF instructors teach techniques to keep the wrist and grip loose throughout the stroke. The Pause is just a part of the equation. Every player does break down at some point, though, whether it's through a lack of concentration, or nervousness, or being tired, or whatever. Often, tightening the grip and locking the wrist, or turning the wrist, is the root cause of a miss, but that can happen regardless of stroke technique.
av84fun said:
But of course among the PURPOSES of the Pause includes a conscious relaxing so if a person does tense up during the pause, they are not executing that essential purpose.
Not necessarily conscious - we don't really want conscious thought during the stroke. Through repetition and practice, the pause should become part of a routine, just like players who don't have a "pause" have made that a part of their routines.
av84fun said:
And contrary to "fast and loose" being the end all/be all approach (although it works fine for some) it is AT LEAST as likely that the player will tense up...grab down etc. at the back of a stroke that does not include an intentional, distinct pause.

Regards,
Jim
I don't think there's an end all/be all. I don't think there's anything wrong with "fast and loose" (as we're using the term here) as long as the player is consistent with it. I would never teach someone to shoot in the style of KM, but he's done damn good with it because he's consistent with it. One of the big benefits of adhering to SPF is that it has built-in checks for when things go wrong (and they will go wrong; like I said, we all break down) to identify and correct those things. For players who haven't sought instruction, it's usually difficult to figure out where the break down occurs and self-diagnose. For an SPF player, that's a relatively easy thing.

-djb
 
av84fun said:
With all due respect to Jimmy, numerous players with considerably more status in the ranks of top professionals DO use it.
Jim

"Considerably more status" than Jimmy Reid? Unless you've got Earl Strickland, Johnny Archer or Mike Sigel using SPF, I would love to know who the people are with more status than Jimmy. Maybe you've never seen the man play before.
 
Pro Snooker Players' Stroke

DoomCue said:
Big C - Randy did not teach Allison her stroke, although they have worked together. Allie comes from the world of snooker, where strokes are almost universal. Just about every snooker player I've ever seen (with a few exceptions) has the same stroke.

-djb

While its true that most pro snooker players have a noticeable pause at the end of their final backswing (like Alison Fisher) they do not all have the same stroke. When I used to play a fair amount, and watch the tv matches, I could recognize any of the top players just by their stroke.

IMHO it is pretty much essential to pause, either at the end of the final backswing or before you start the final backswing. However the key is not the pause itself, but what goes on during the pause - you need to use the pause to focus on the shot you are playing. (And don't just focus on the fact that you are pausing!) :smile:
 
I have a pause in my stroke as well. I never really noticed it or focused on trying to do it, but I had people point it out to me. I know the reason I do it is when I get down on a shot, Im focusing on the cue ball at first and then right before I pull the trigger, I change my focus to the object ball. I have noticed Allison and others with a pause and if you watch, she looks at the object ball during her pause. Im not sure whether its a good thing or a bad thing, but mine is purely natural.

Southpaw
 
Big C said:
If you think SPF is a pile of HOOEY

I don't see how SPF could stand for a Pile of Hooey. Maybe it could stand for a Small Pile of Fooey, but not a Pile of Hooey. A Pile of Hooey would be PH, I would think.

Still, I don't really know what a Small Pile of Fooey is anyway.

I use SPF 50, by the way.
 
Interesting.

PoolBum said:
I don't see how SPF could stand for a Pile of Hooey. Maybe it could stand for a Small Pile of Fooey, but not a Pile of Hooey. A Pile of Hooey would be PH, I would think.

Still, I don't really know what a Small Pile of Fooey is anyway.

I use SPF 50, by the way.
So this is your first post on this thread? Were you trying to tell us something, or just an attempt at humor? Maybe you should stay out of the sun, or wear a hat? :rolleyes:
 
Big C said:
We are saying the same thing here. How am I "incorrect"? I have the Cue Tech manual and I read it quite often. Also, I don't agree with attacking another poster simply because you cannot convince them you are right. We all have different opinions and we all have something to contribute. Not one of us has all of the answers. Take what you like and leave the rest.

MY APOLOGIES!!! I misread you post. I thought you said the FINISH and FREEZE were the SAME thing but of course you said NOT the same thing.

MY BAD... Beat me!
(-:
 
DoomCue said:
Sure, but that can be a problem no matter what school of stroke is being used. SPF instructors teach techniques to keep the wrist and grip loose throughout the stroke. The Pause is just a part of the equation. Every player does break down at some point, though, whether it's through a lack of concentration, or nervousness, or being tired, or whatever. Often, tightening the grip and locking the wrist, or turning the wrist, is the root cause of a miss, but that can happen regardless of stroke technique.

Not necessarily conscious - we don't really want conscious thought during the stroke. Through repetition and practice, the pause should become part of a routine, just like players who don't have a "pause" have made that a part of their routines.

I don't think there's an end all/be all. I don't think there's anything wrong with "fast and loose" (as we're using the term here) as long as the player is consistent with it. I would never teach someone to shoot in the style of KM, but he's done damn good with it because he's consistent with it. One of the big benefits of adhering to SPF is that it has built-in checks for when things go wrong (and they will go wrong; like I said, we all break down) to identify and correct those things. For players who haven't sought instruction, it's usually difficult to figure out where the break down occurs and self-diagnose. For an SPF player, that's a relatively easy thing.

-djb

Essentially, we are on the same page with respect to each of your points. Re: conscious thought, I was referring to how the SPF is taught.

Before that method becomes subconscious, it must first be conscious...including the fact that some SPF instructors advise actually saying SET, PAUSE and FINISH out loud during the "early adoption" phase of the method.

Regards,
Jim
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
"Considerably more status" than Jimmy Reid? Unless you've got Earl Strickland, Johnny Archer or Mike Sigel using SPF, I would love to know who the people are with more status than Jimmy. Maybe you've never seen the man play before.

Oh, get your shorts out of the bunch they're in parder. I have met Jimmy personally and have been given brief pointers by him at JOBs in Nashville.

I have followed his career for a few decades: have been a paying member of his website and own some of his outstanding instructional videos.

When Jimmy was healthy, he played JAM UP but his RECORD of tournament wins and money winnings is not nearly equal to, say, Buddy Hall for example.

Maybe you've never seen Buddy Hall play or reviewed his professional record. Check him out. He's pretty good.

Jim
 
Poolplaya9 said:
What I was referring in my side note were the pros who have a noticable pause before their final backstroke (the set position in spf), but no pause at the rear of the final stroke (the pause position in spf). I should have probably been more clear. To my knowledge, no instructors teach this variation, but it is fairly common among pros.

Actually, with SPF, we teach it as 3 different stops. Set, Pause, and Finish are just names for each stopping point in the stroke sequence. There is a reason for each, and we encourage our students to exagerate each of them by holding each for a couple of seconds, DURING PRACTICE. The stops will eventually become habits, but in a game situation, they may be of much shorter duration than in practice. We encourage students to actually not think about SPF during a match. With enough practice, it will show up in the game all by itself.

Steve
 
Actually, that's not true Dave. Randy DID teach Allie how to finish her stroke. Snooker players are taught to "screw" the CB by forcibly stopping the cue, at contact with the CB (aka no finish or followthrough). Allison had trouble with long draws when she came to pool school. Once she learned where her "home" position was, and how to get there consistently, she started doing table length draws accurately, with no effort! Allison has two pauses...one at the CB and a longer, more distinct pause, at the end of the backswing.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

DoomCue said:
Big C - Randy did not teach Allison her stroke, although they have worked together. Allie comes from the world of snooker, where strokes are almost universal. Just about every snooker player I've ever seen (with a few exceptions) has the same stroke.

-djb
 
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