Question about intentional swerve

[ENGLISH!]

1. If you watch closely it's apparent that the hitch mostly happens after the CB is gone - it's just a common case of steering (which I thought that was beneath Buddy).

2. The shot doesn't need any sidespin and clearly doesn't have any. If it had sidespin it would hit the blocking ball coming off the rail.

pj
chgo

Patrick,

Sometimes you make me think that you know nothing about physics nor playing pool.

Best 2 You...& All.

PS You just called Buddy Hall a liar.

Edit: My apologies Patrick. Dave's post made me come back & re-read your post. I had thought that the number 2. in your post was referring to the 2nd. shot. I now see you were making '2' points regarding the 1st. shot.

 

[dr_dave]

Patrick,

Sometimes you make me think that you know nothing about physics nor play pool.

Best 2 You...& All.

PS You just called Buddy Hall a liar.

Rick,

I just watched that segment of the video, and I agree with PJ's assessment. The slight steer occurs after the hit, and Buddy does in fact apply "high center" as he says is required. Nothing PJ wrote contradicts anything Buddy said. Why do you think PJ is calling Buddy a "liar?" Watch and listen to the video again.

Regards,
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick,

I just watched that segment of the video, and I agree with PJ's assessment. The slight steer occurs after the hit, and Buddy does in fact apply "high center" as he says is required. Nothing PJ wrote contradicts anything Buddy said. Why do you think PJ is calling Buddy a "liar?" Watch and listen to the video again.

Regards,
Dave

Dave,

Did you receive my PM from a few days ago?

Regards,
Rick

 

[dr_dave]

Sometimes you make me think that you know nothing about physics nor playing pool.

Rick,

FYI, this is the kind of post from you that can be perceived as "irritating" or "trouble making." I know you can easily find quotes from others toward you that you might also perceive this way, but it seems like you are the one who usually starts things.

I'm not telling you this to be mean. Rather, I hope it will help you be more aware of why you sometimes rub people the wrong way and sometimes contribute in causing threads to degrade into petty and childish personal attacks that detract from useful discussion and understanding.

FYI, PJ knows a lot more about pool physics and the game than most people on this forum. Like you and I, he has been around the game a long time (many decades). He is also a dedicated student of the game and the physics that makes the game so interesting and challenging. Like you, he also sometimes rubs people the wrong way, but not because of any lack of understanding of pool principles.

Best regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Did you receive my PM from a few days ago?

Yes, and I also replied a few days ago.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick,

I just watched that segment of the video, and I agree with PJ's assessment. The slight steer occurs after the hit, and Buddy does in fact apply "high center" as he says is required. Nothing PJ wrote contradicts anything Buddy said. Why do you think PJ is calling Buddy a "liar?" Watch and listen to the video again.

Regards,
Dave

Thanks Dave,

I misread Patrick's post. Please see my Edit apology. I had thought his number 2 was referring to the 2nd. shot.

I also agree about with PJ & You about the 1st. shot I would not base it on the cue path being after contact or a steering stroke. Video can be misleading. I base my decision on how the cue ball came off the 2nd. rail.

Thanks again for getting me to re-read PJ's post.

Regard,
Rick

 

[dr_dave]

Thanks Dave,

I misread Patrick's post. Please see my Edit apology. I had though his number 2 was referring to the 2nd. shot.

I also agree about with PJ & You about the 1st. shot I would not base it on the cue path being after contact or a steering stroke. Video can be misleading. I base my decision on how the cue ball came off the 2nd. rail.

Thanks again for getting me to re-read PJ's post.

Regard,
Rick

I'm glad you figured this out and apologized for your inappropriate and inaccurate statement.

Good job,
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

Yes, and I also replied a few days ago.

Dave,

If I had received a response, then I would not have asked if you received it.

Also, please note that in my post to PJ, I said 'sometimes'. Text communication can be a bit challenging at times. 'Sometimes' PJ's posts are a bit unclear & 'sometimes' clarifying questions need asking & 'sometimes' after reading his posts 2 or 3 times his true meaning becomes more clear.

Thanks again for getting me to go back to take note of my error.

Rick.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I'm glad you figured this out and apologized for your inappropriate and inaccurate statement.

Good job,
Dave

Dave,

Everyone makes mistakes Dave, even you.

Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick,

FYI, this is the kind of post from you that can be perceived as "irritating" or "trouble making." I know you can easily find quotes from others toward you that you might also perceive this way, but it seems like you are the one who usually starts things.

I'm not telling you this to be mean. Rather, I hope it will help you be more aware of why you sometimes rub people the wrong way and sometimes contribute in causing threads to degrade into petty and childish personal attacks that detract from useful discussion and understanding.

FYI, PJ knows a lot more about pool physics and the game than most people on this forum. Like you and I, he has been around the game a long time (many decades). He is also a dedicated student of the game and the physics that makes the game so interesting and challenging. Like you, he also sometimes rubs people the wrong way, but not because of any lack of understanding of pool principles.

Best regards,
Dave

Dave,

I think it better if I just don't respond to you here.

You have a great weekend,
Rick

 

[dr_dave]

Dave,

If I had received a response, then I would not have asked if you received it.

I'll check my "Sent PMs" folder to make sure I sent the message. I am sorry if you didn't receive it. If so, and if I find it, I will re-send it.

Also, please note that in my post to PJ, I said 'sometimes'. Text communication can be a bit challenging at times. 'Sometimes' PJ's post are a bit unclear & 'sometimes' clarifying questions need asking & sometimes after reading his posts 2 or 3 times his true meaning becomes more clear.

I thought PJ's post was perfectly clear (and totally logical and accurate) based on what was in the linked video. I agree that it is fine to ask "clarifying questions;" however, that can be done without hurling petty and immature insults. I know PJ's "tone" can sometimes be perceived as disrespectful; but, IMO, it is never appropriate to launch personal attacks or be mean or confrontational. I know I have been accused of this in the past also, but I always try to remain mature and respectful when I disagree with what people post.

Thanks again for getting me to go back to take note of my error.

You're welcome.

Best regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Dave,

I think it better if I just don't respond to you here.

You have a great weekend,
Rick

Based on past experience, that's probably a good idea.

You have a good weekend also.

Best regards,
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

I'll check my "Sent PMs" folder to make sure I sent the message. I am sorry if you didn't receive it. If so, and if I find it, I will re-send it.

I thought PJ's post was perfectly clear (and totally logical and accurate) based on what was in the linked video. I agree that it is fine to ask "clarifying questions;" however, that can be done without hurling petty and immature insults. I know PJ's "tone" can sometimes be perceived as disrespectful; but, IMO, it is never appropriate to launch personal attacks or be mean or confrontational. I know I have been accused of this in the past also, but I always try to remain mature and respectful when I disagree with what people post.

You're welcome.

Best regards,
Dave

I made a mistake & perhaps my wording could have been better & while PJ & I may not be best friends we are not strangers. I immediately apologized when I recognized my mistake. Perhaps you are misinterpreting what my tone & what my intent may have been.

Do you want me to bring the hammer & nails along with the cross that you seem to want to use?

PS I was not referring to this specific post of PJ's as being nuclear but others have 'sometimes' been so.. I immediately admitted that it was my mistake. I placed no blame on him in this instance.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Like you...

Ouch.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

I made a mistake & perhaps my wording could have been better & while PJ & I may not be best friends we are not strangers. I immediately apologized when I recognized my mistake. Perhaps you are misinterpreting what my tone & what my intent may have been.

Do you want me to bring the hammer & nails along with the cross that you seem to want to use?

PS I was not referring to this specific post of PJ's but others. I admitted that it was my mistake. I place no blame on him in this instance.

Rick,

FYI, I checked my "Sent PMs" folder, and for some reason the reply I thought I sent to you did not go out. I apologize for that. FYI, I just sent a reply.

Concerning the latest collection of posts in this thread: You made an inappropriate post. It was pointed out. And you appropriately apologized. It probably should have ended there. We should probably both look back to see why it didn't end. That might be a good learning experience for both of us.

Regards,
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

Ouch.

pj
chgo

Patrick,

Please accept my apology, but since Christian/Chrippa referred to both shots & you used the "1." & the "2.", I think it should be rather easy to see that my mistake was an honest mistake.

Again, please accept my apology.

With Sincerity & Best Wishes,
Rick

PS I also now realize that I was unclear as to what part of your post I was referring & that's sort of a double hit foul that I call on myself whenever I realize it has occured.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick,

FYI, I checked my "Sent PMs" folder, and for some reason the reply I thought I sent to you did not go out. I apologize for that. FYI, I just sent a reply.

Concerning the latest collection of posts in this thread: You made an inappropriate post. It was pointed out. And you appropriately apologized. It probably should have ended there. We should probably both look back to see why it didn't end. That might be a good learning experience for both of us.

Regards,
Dave

Agreed.

So, did you make a 'mistake' when you said you replied a few days ago? :wink:

Best wishes,
Rick

 

[Chrippa]

good morning from Sweden everyone:thumbup:.

Thanks for the response Neil, Dave and PJ about the Buddy Hall stroke.

Do you really think it´s likely that Buddy Hall, THE BUDDY HALL.... is doing this with no purpose?

I myself would have just a touch of left on this, - the cb bounces away from the hit before the english takes. If just going in with center it will take some negative spin from the hit and will not imo go like that.

He has a beautiful stroke, so easy and with so much power.

Cheers

Chrippa

 

[12squared]

Oh my...

Dr. Dave took me and my wife to lunch yesterday to thank me for the time we spent together trying to make his video comparing "swoop" stroke w/back hand english. I had a burger w/artichoke dip on it - yummy (thanks my good doctor!). At lunch Dave asked me if I have seen this thread, which I had not since it's part of a larger thread, so he was kind enough to point me in the right direction. I did not have the patience to read through it all as there seems to be a lot of repetition of "us" vs "them". I respect when there is difference of opinion w/examples, that's how we learn new things, but this (and many other similar threads) just turn into a pissing contest that is not productive (IMHO).

I just want to point out that Dr. Dave asked me to to try to hit the same spot on the cueball with the same elevation and bridge position for each stroke to try to get a comparison. I tried my best and am not an expert of the "swoop" stroke, but I was taught this technique in the late 70's by Allen Gilbert when I used to play a lot of 3-cushion so it was not totally foreign to me but I have not used it in decades. For that matter, I do not use back hand english on a regular basis either. As we thought this was achieved, Dr. Dave notice when reviewing the video that this was not the case so he had to redo the last portion of it (sorry Dave).

I believe, as Dr. Dave does, that if you hit the cueball in the exact same spot with the same cue angle and bridge position that the results will be the same. All this talk of starting the swoop from the opposite side of the cueball instead of the center that you would start using back hand english would not be comparing apples to apples since the start point is different as well as where your bridge begins. I would think that would be it's own test where everything tested starts at the same place.

To close, I am not a science guy, I am more of a results guy so these things are not fun for me to do...I do it for Dr. Dave because of all he does for pool. I would hope people would simply thank Dr. Dave for his efforts and realize he does this because people like yourselves ask him to prove things they do not have the equipment to prove, nor the time. You have no idea how much time Dave devotes to this endeavor.

Thanks you, Dr. Dave!

Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Dr. Dave took me and my wife to lunch yesterday to thank me for the time we spent together trying to make his video comparing "swoop" stroke w/back hand english. I had a burger w/artichoke dip on it - yummy (thanks my good doctor!). At lunch Dave asked me if I have seen this thread, which I had not since it's part of a larger thread, so he was kind enough to point me in the right direction. I did not have the patience to read through it all as there seems to be a lot of repetition of "us" vs "them". I respect when there is difference of opinion w/examples, that's how we learn new things, but this (and many other similar threads) just turn into a pissing contest that is not productive (IMHO).

I just want to point out that Dr. Dave asked me to to try to hit the same spot on the cueball with the same elevation and bridge position for each stroke to try to get a comparison. I tried my best and am not an expert of the "swoop" stroke, but I was taught this technique in the late 70's by Allen Gilbert when I used to play a lot of 3-cushion so it was not totally foreign to me but I have not used it in decades. For that matter, I do not use back hand english on a regular basis either. As we thought this was achieved, Dr. Dave notice when reviewing the video that this was not the case so he had to redo the last portion of it (sorry Dave).

I believe, as Dr. Dave does, that if you hit the cueball in the exact same spot with the same cue angle and bridge position that the results will be the same. All this talk of starting the swoop from the opposite side of the cueball instead of the center that you would start using back hand english would not be comparing apples to apples since the start point is different as well as where your bridge begins. I would think that would be it's own test where everything tested starts at the same place.

To close, I am not a science guy, I am more of a results guy so these things are not fun for me to do...I do it for Dr. Dave because of all he does for pool. I would hope people would simply thank Dr. Dave for his efforts and realize he does this because people like yourselves ask him to prove things they do not have the equipment to prove, nor the time. You have no idea how much time Dave devotes to this endeavor.

Thanks you, Dr. Dave!

Dave

Thanks Dave ... and you're welcome.

In case people can't find the video in this ridiculously long thread, here it is again:

NV F.2 - Swoop Stroke Experiment - Can swooping create extra spin on the cue ball?

Again, I think the video explanations and demonstrations (especially later in the video) clearly show that a swoop stroke cannot create more spin than a straight stroke. Now, one can easily be fooled into thinking otherwise by not being careful and consistent with aiming, or by elevating the cue (intentionally or not), or by hitting below the horizontal center-line of the CB with the swoop vs. straight strokes (, or because of some other logical reason).

If people want more information and other demonstrations, additional relevant resources can be found here:
stroke swoop resource page

Regards,
Dave