Question for APA captains

K

kaznj

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There is an APA rule that says "The team manual states that you must split to a second table if you're not in the fourth match by official league time plus two hours unless no second table is available or bother teams agree not to split. There is no option, and sportmanship penalties can be assessed to teams that make an available table unavailable. ".
Do any of you enforce this rule? Last night the fourth match was about to start 3 1/2 hours after we started. It was late. I wanted to get done. The other team went crazy. The cursed at me. It was ridiculous, but I would not back down.
Everyone on my team has a real job. We are not a bunch of kids who want to drag ourselves to work the next day. No other team in our league agrees with me. The hate me for using this rule. I would like to hear from you about your opinions on this subject.
Also, what about the start times. A team has a 15 minute grace period to get a player to the table to start the first match. We constantly have teams that wander in 30 minutes late. Last night the other team had only one player, not the captain, ready to go 20 minutes after the official start time. I told her to put herself up and let's get going. She did but was unhappy about it. Again, your opinion please.
 
kaznj said:
There is an APA rule that says "The team manual states that you must split to a second table if you're not in the fourth match by official league time plus two hours unless no second table is available or bother teams agree not to split. There is no option, and sportmanship penalties can be assessed to teams that make an available table unavailable. ".
Do any of you enforce this rule? Last night the fourth match was about to start 3 1/2 hours after we started. It was late. I wanted to get done. The other team went crazy. The cursed at me. It was ridiculous, but I would not back down.
Everyone on my team has a real job. We are not a bunch of kids who want to drag ourselves to work the next day. No other team in our league agrees with me. The hate me for using this rule. I would like to hear from you about your opinions on this subject.
Also, what about the start times. A team has a 15 minute grace period to get a player to the table to start the first match. We constantly have teams that wander in 30 minutes late. Last night the other team had only one player, not the captain, ready to go 20 minutes after the official start time. I told her to put herself up and let's get going. She did but was unhappy about it. Again, your opinion please.
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We don't "enforce" the rule but when things are running late we have split the final 2 matches to 2 tables. I've never had an opposing captain say no when I suggest splitting(haven't done it many times). As far as the start time thing goes we give the 15 minutes if we have to but after 15 minutes they will forfiet if they don't put up a player.
Our take on it is, you're allowed 8 players on your roster and if you can't put up a player by the end of the 15 minute grace period then that's not our problem. We're always there and ready, we expect the same courtesy.
 
There are a few slow teams where I play, and some resisted when we tried to enforce it. It got to the point that me and my co-captain printed out that page from the rulebook and carried it with us. After that, the arguments stopped.
 
kaznj said:
There is an APA rule that says "The team manual states that you must split to a second table if you're not in the fourth match by official league time plus two hours unless no second table is available or bother teams agree not to split. There is no option, and sportmanship penalties can be assessed to teams that make an available table unavailable. ".
Do any of you enforce this rule? Last night the fourth match was about to start 3 1/2 hours after we started. It was late. I wanted to get done. The other team went crazy. The cursed at me. It was ridiculous, but I would not back down.
Everyone on my team has a real job. We are not a bunch of kids who want to drag ourselves to work the next day. No other team in our league agrees with me. The hate me for using this rule. I would like to hear from you about your opinions on this subject.
Also, what about the start times. A team has a 15 minute grace period to get a player to the table to start the first match. We constantly have teams that wander in 30 minutes late. Last night the other team had only one player, not the captain, ready to go 20 minutes after the official start time. I told her to put herself up and let's get going. She did but was unhappy about it. Again, your opinion please.
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If things are running late, I will try and split matches because it helps both teams get out of there earlier. If a team refuses then write them up for sure. I have never had a team refuse to split matches.

As far as the 15 minute rule goes, if someone is there, get things rolling whether they like it or not. If the team is one I like and no one on my team objects, we will wait longer. If it is a PITA team, I will take the forfeit and get the bye points without regret.
 
My team does this all the time. Usually we would wait until the 3rd match is over then start the final 2 matches on 2 separate tables. By that time it would around 930pm or 10pm. So far no one has opposed this. Other teams in my area does this too...
 
Cory, I too carry around a copy of the rule. Other captains still put up a fight. The first time I used this the other captain refused to even look at the rule. This guy is a police officer, and he said he didnt' care what the rule was. We walked out after the fourth match. Their captain kept yelling at me all the way out of the place. He was informed by the league operator that he was forfeiting the other team's last match. I don't want to win this way. I in this to play for the fun of it.
 
Sounds like a crappy area to play in :( I captain a 9-ball team and play on an 8-ball team, and we split to two tables most nights. I've never once heard any opposition or even a discussion of this rule, regardless of who suggests it or when.

-J
 
I can't think of a single reason why I wouldn't want to go to two tables. There is no chance that I want to be at the bar until midnight if I don't have to. We play on a Monday night league, and that's just not the way that I want to start my week off.
We typically go two tables as soon as it hits 9:00 (7:00 start time). I'm all for going 2 even earlier if both teams are agreed to it.
 
It is called respect for others.

kaznj said:
Cory, I too carry around a copy of the rule. Other captains still put up a fight. The first time I used this the other captain refused to even look at the rule. This guy is a police officer, and he said he didnt' care what the rule was. We walked out after the fourth match. Their captain kept yelling at me all the way out of the place. He was informed by the league operator that he was forfeiting the other team's last match. I don't want to win this way. I in this to play for the fun of it.
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I have not had a problem with splitting tables, but if I do I like what Kaznj did and I will try that for our game.
Also, I do enforce the 15 min time limit. Our whole team has to get up and go to work the next day. If your team doesn't have someone there it is a forfeit. If the whole team is not there I will forfeit the whole team and hope they get the point. If they need to reschedule because of complications, that should be done ahead of time not after they lose.
 
Splitting tables is the only thing that makes sense on some nights.We've done it more times then I care to count.

Also,by 15 minutes after the start time,the other teams absence is not YOUR problem.You were right to get the one player playing of have em forfeit em all.

As someone mentioned it sounds like you have a pretty sh--ty league considering.
 
Sounds like I am the only person that has some opposition to the split table thing.

Really only when it is abused... I am a long time 9ball captian and most of the teams in my league know that I oppose splitting tables unless it's running really late...

There is one team comprised mostly of older women (most 55+ years old, one of them I think is like 70) that really abuse this rule and the are looking to split and ask if I am willing at like 9pm (start time 730)... I dont refuse, but I will stall and by my general demeanor when this request is made it is clear I am unhappy that this request has even been presented to me that early...

Now don't get me wrong, I do split tables and quite often when the matches start running late... I have no problem with it if they are obviously running late. I just don't like it when it's abused.

The reason I don't like it when it happens really early is 2 fold....

1. I have a full 8 person team with 2-3's, 2-4's, 2-5's 1-6 and 1-7... with the 23 rule I do have to be cognisant of who I play and when. As a captain it's my job to manage the match. Every decision that I make as far as who to put up and when is not only driven by how each of my players is playing and who the other team puts up or who I want to put up "blind" it's also driven by how the previous player scored... so the person I put up as the anchor or 5th match is often directly dependant on how we are doing as a team. There are alot of decisions that go into selecting who I want to play and against whom. Not knowing how the 4th match is going to finish before selecting my 5th starter does hamper my ability to make the decision that is right for my team and the player as an invididual...

2. Spliting to 2 tables also requires that you either split to 2 scorekeepers one for each or have 2 players from my tea, one scoring each match. It's very difficult to have 2 of my players keeping score at one time for each match (and there is one scoresheet so one of them would havta keep score on a blank sheet of paper rather than a official scoresheet).. So rather than do that, generally one person from each team will score for each of the matches. If I really didn't trust a team I would of course post someone next to the other teams scorekeeper to QC or have someone do it on a blank sheet. it'd not that I think teams are taking that opportunity to cheat a ball here or there, or an inning or safe shot here or there... even though they could easily do just that... But, people make mistakes. Happens all the time I couldn't tell you how many times that the score sheets had to be compared to fix some ball someone missed or whatever and sometimes (especially if you have 2 score keepers for each match) you have inexperienced score keepers that miss something and handicaps & matches ride of those scores.

*edit* but to the original poster, your league sounds like a real mess. We really don't have any problems to speak of when it comes to teams showing up on time or abusive captains. We all get along pretty well and I don't remember the last time a team had to forfeit a match because a player didn't show up.
 
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I was captain of my 8-ball team for a couple of years. In that time, and the time before I took over as captain, there were plenty of times we were running over on time, and whenever there was another table we could use, we used it. I don't recall any of the other captains/teams objecting to this, ever - they wanted to get done at a reasonable hour as well :)

If someone has a problem with splitting tables, then IMHO there's something else, something sneaky, to it. There's really no valid reason not to.
 
I would stick to official start time.

I would stick to official start time being that this is an on going problem. There are sometimes odd circumstances where people are late and waiting would be the friendly thing to do, but what you're describing about start time suggest abuse and I would let them know they forfeit the match.

The main goal of APA, as I understand it, is to bring amateurs in to the fold and for everyone to have fun. That being said, the rules are there to set a standard as guidelines for everyone to operate with in. Your expectations about start time seems reasonable to me and you are with in your rights under the rules. I would feel I had an obligation to look out for my team.

I recommend pursuing what is fair and doing it in a very sportsman like manner. Maybe even contacting who is in charge for your area and asking him to contact the other team captain of the team that is the problem and giving them a heads up that this rule is going to be enforced regarding start times, but emphasizing that really you just want that team to be on time so everyone can start and finish within times that are expected.
Make it about the issue and the problem, but don't come across as making it personal, as to not offend.

On the doubling up on tables after two hours, I have agreed and disagreed on doing this in the past. For me it is difficult to keep up with the score sheet and makes keeping score too much like work and takes away the enjoyment for me of watching the game if I have to watch two at the same time.

If for some odd reason the first couple of matches go 20 or 30 innings, then I would say yes, because I would not be enjoying the night any way,lol.

If the game delays are being cause because of people wondering off and socializing, then I think it might be appropriate to bring it up as an unsportsmanlike conduct issue. My team is there to play pool.

Again, the rules are there so we all have a reasonable expectation of how things will go and so we can all have fun within those set parameters.

Following the rules should never be a problem. If a team or team captain or player has a problem with following the rules, it is their problem. If they make following the rules a personal issue for themselves that is their own business, provided they maintain an attitude of sportsmanship like conduct.

That is my 2 cents. Good Luck.
 
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ScottW said:
If someone has a problem with splitting tables, then IMHO there's something else, something sneaky, to it. There's really no valid reason not to.
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Sneaky? IMO there is nothing "sneaky" about managing your team and the match. Did there sound like there was something "sneaky" or "Sinister" about my reasoning? I think my points are quite valid, appearently you disagree. Please rebut my reasoning.
 
In the place we play, they have extra tables but charge us for the after 930 PM. Excellent, no?

I dont much like the idea of putting up two matches at once, you want to wait and see how the match goes before deciding.
 
Our League exclusively plays on two tables right from the start, and every captain has agreed to it. It's the only way to get done before 2am!

In the Double Jeopardy League, we use three tables.
 
A better question is;

WHAT IF YOUR LEAGUE OPERATOR REFUSES TO ENFORCE THE RULE?

Opposing team of out of work losers shows up at 7:59 (latest possible time without team forfit) and match play starts at 8:10. Deep into the first game of the second match, it's 9:30, two hours after start time. I bring up the rule.

No joke, we had not one, but two practice tables, plus the game table at the pool hall on big tables. Big tables normally mean games take longer.

Team captain did not want to play the match on two tables, even though all of our players did, including a few guys on his team who spoke up and wanted two tables as well.

I called the league operator and mentioned the rule book with bold highlights on this issue, and they refused to do anything about it. Not to mention this was an I issue I brought up with them in the past, ending with them saying "No problem, if that comes up, we got your back."

The match ended at 12:30, I got home about 12:50 after dropping off the paper work.

I was dragging at my job the next day. I don't play in a bar league so I can stay out all night.
 
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We have never had a problem playing on 2 tables as long as it's past 9:30, the league operator doesn't like us to start playing on 2 tables before 9:30 but if we really wanted to we could. Where I play they give us two tables, one for the league and one for both teams to practice on the whole night, if we want to give up our practice table and play another match on it then we do.

But i do understand the reasoning behind not wanting to start another match before the other one is done and if someone says no to starting another match then thats fine and we'll just be there all night.
 
Nobody wants to have to stayout any later than they personally "want to". So in that respect and out of respect for everyone else in the league, everyone needs to try to respect time guidelines.

1. We will give everybody 15 mins. because S@#t happens and sometimes folks run late, we are amatuers remember with a phone call we'll wait 30 mins. After that we start taking matches every 15 mins. until someone shows up. This what my team does. No official rule.

2. In reguards to splitting there's never any arguement, by the time anyone usually wants to split we're in the 4th match and want to try and get out as early as possible at that point.

And to the poster that remarked that they don't want to split because they want to see how the match turns out please elaborate. The goal is to win so I don't see your point.

Black Cat :cool:
 
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Beware_of_Dawg said:
Sneaky? IMO there is nothing "sneaky" about managing your team and the match. Did there sound like there was something "sneaky" or "Sinister" about my reasoning? I think my points are quite valid, appearently you disagree. Please rebut my reasoning.
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"Sure" I'll "rebut" your "reasoning". :P

1) I can understand your reasoning there, if you're dealing with playoffs - where it's a race-to-three-matches. But during regular session play, it's not a big deal. Winning the majority of the matches for the night matters not - you're simply trying to win as many matches as possible. So splitting tables should not be an issue here - you should be playing who you think you can win, period - not who can win AFTER another player plays his/her match.

2) When we've split matches, we simply had one team score one table, the other team score the other table, and then at the end of the night, caught up on each other's scoresheets. Granted, I was in a very friendly league area, where we didn't generally have to worry about the other team pulling a fast one as far as scoring goes. You may not be in such an area - I don't know.

Regardless, not wanting to split matches because of it-takes-more-effort-to-score is weak, IMHO. And you're basically telling the other team "my convenience is more important than your team members (and your own) getting home at a reasonable hour from playing in an amateur league".

"Happy" now? :D
 
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