What's worse, getting out of your rhythm or shooting yourself into a losing situation?
Question for APA players
- Thread starter CGM
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No, I don't mind at all. I used to have a teammate who made it clear that he wanted to be left the hell alone while he was at table. He would sometimes put himself in jail, then called a timeout. He was hooked so deep no one could really help to bail him out.
I only wish more timeouts would be called before we got ourselves into troubles.
I only wish more timeouts would be called before we got ourselves into troubles.
It’s far more than a skill level difference. A guy I know, very arrogant and cocky, played one session of APA. He hawked over the tables calling a timeout at every opportunity he had. Pissed every player on his team off. He no longer plays because he says it’s not competitive and fun. There’s a right time to call a timeout, and a wrong time. If you’re at least a 6 or above and you’re having a timeout called on while down on your shot, there’s a reason a timeout gets called.
If I call a timeout while someone is down on there shot, a couple things are taking place. I can see that they are lined up wrong and will miss the shot, doesn’t matter skill. Only when it matters though, must win situations. Or they aren’t playing the route correctly for better skilled players. I’ll explain to them why that route is bad. But even 6’s and 7’s cannot play spin evenly, so some players get some routes easier than others. Otherwise due to people’s inability to hit exactly where they need to aim, timeouts aren’t to be used whenever someone feels like it.
Would you rather be pissed off someone called a timeout and offered insight to the shot, or would you rather screw up on your own and be told “call a timeout then”? If your captain doesn’t understand that league is supposed to be for fun, then get your team together and oust them as captain.
Skill level matters a lot when coaching. Try to tell a 3 to shoot a shot 6 diamonds away using top/right or top/left english. A 3 wont understand how to compensate for the swerve, or if he understands, can't accomplish it. So even if it's the right shot, it's the wrong shot for that player. The Mark of a good coach is not just that they know the game, but they know their team mates as well as the game.
Great Post. Hey, help me, what do I do know. The last time I said "punt". I mean, really, when you took the last ball off the table, with NO WAY of getting to the 8ball, and now you want to know what to do next. yeah, don't shoot that last ball in.
I'm the captain of my team, and I'm certainly not the strongest player on the team. But I usually do the coaches for our SL2's and 3's, cuz I talk to them the right way, and don't ask them to do something they aren't capable of. And I start off by asking them what they were thinking about doing first...
For any of our mid level players, I'll coach or the other mid levels will coach, when we don't have our SL7 handy.
I rarely call a timeout on someone when they're down on the shot, but if they are obviously taking the wrong shot, I will, usually just the SL2's & 3's on our teams...
You do have to understand how your players will react, and bear that in mind before calling a timeout. I had a captain of my first team who was very strong minded about this, and wasn't sensitive to how players felt. We lost players as a result. It is supposed to be fun, and if you act like a dictator, well.... Know you're players.
For any of our mid level players, I'll coach or the other mid levels will coach, when we don't have our SL7 handy.
I rarely call a timeout on someone when they're down on the shot, but if they are obviously taking the wrong shot, I will, usually just the SL2's & 3's on our teams...
You do have to understand how your players will react, and bear that in mind before calling a timeout. I had a captain of my first team who was very strong minded about this, and wasn't sensitive to how players felt. We lost players as a result. It is supposed to be fun, and if you act like a dictator, well.... Know you're players.
The other option is after your break, call timeout yourself, he will come over because he obviously know more than anyone else, then give him some money and tell him you'll need a beer after the game and to give any change to the bartender and to be off with himself.
Time outs. Meh
Oh man....being captain on as many as 4 teams a week for the past 8 years I culd write a book on problems with players concerning this topic.
Most of you have already pretty much covered it pretty good about being aware of what the shooter is capable of. Yea I have 2 players on my current thursday 9 ball team that absolutely hate time outs called. For the record I cut back to just calling time outs when its really important to win...such as playoffs and higher. As I tell my players...i call a time out because its easier to prevent you from getting in trouble than to get you out of trouble.
What I tell my players when they say I interrupted their rhythm I reply ...well whatever rhythm you think you had was going to come to a screeching halt after you made this shot you were going to attempt.
During regular session I just wait for them to call a time out ...amd yea I sit there watching them shoot themselves into a corner knowing I should call a timeout but as some one else said in an earlier post. .let them learn from their mistakes.
Most of you have already pretty much covered it pretty good about being aware of what the shooter is capable of. Yea I have 2 players on my current thursday 9 ball team that absolutely hate time outs called. For the record I cut back to just calling time outs when its really important to win...such as playoffs and higher. As I tell my players...i call a time out because its easier to prevent you from getting in trouble than to get you out of trouble.
What I tell my players when they say I interrupted their rhythm I reply ...well whatever rhythm you think you had was going to come to a screeching halt after you made this shot you were going to attempt.
During regular session I just wait for them to call a time out ...amd yea I sit there watching them shoot themselves into a corner knowing I should call a timeout but as some one else said in an earlier post. .let them learn from their mistakes.
My opinion on this kinda varies. Maybe the captain is stopping you from getting in trouble in the rack. Nothing more annoying than to watch a player shoot and go no way they get to that ball or they are going to stick themselves and they do and then they call a timeout for the amazing two rail kick to get them out of the jam they created. I feel some people call timeouts too late not just when they are indecisive or confused. Another person may see something about to happen that you possibly don’t see because your in a groove and haven’t considered all possibilities.
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That’s the good part about the APA though. You can physically move your player if needed to align them to the shot right. You just don’t have to tell them what to do. Don’t let them compensate for the squirt or swerve, you line them up to compensate for it. They still have to hit it like you lined them up to shoot it. You can place a cube of caulk or your fingering to get them lined up, and then before they shit the cue ball, remove whatever you used to line them up. You can’t shoot a shot while the table is ‘marked’ but you can ‘mark’ it to get lined up.
The person designated as the coach can also refuse to take a timeout too. Had to do that once this weekend in tri’s. The player at the table called a timeout. I knew the shot at hand wasn’t going to be the problem. Due to their lack of stroke getting to the next balls to play out was impossible. But the safety was there. But I’m not going to explain the next shot while still on the prior shot to a 3. They made their ball, then I called timeout. Pissed them off but I explained to her that with only one timeout allowed, trying to explain the next shot while not on it was hard to do. She reluctantly agreed. She then asked how to identify better when she needs a timeout, I told her than when she gets to a 6 she’ll know.
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Even if they are lined up properly, they can misjudged the speed and get too much swerve or not enough. It was just an example.
And I does say in the team manual you can leave a piece of chalk on the rail for a sight mark. It does bot have to be removed. But the cloth cannot be marked.
As a captain and a SL 4, I am hesitant to call timeouts on my 6 and 7. However, my 7 HATES playing defense. The other night he was about to attempt a carom-back cut-cross side bank shot. I called timeout and reminded him that if he lost that game, our team would lose a point and possibly the match. He begrudgingly played a safe and ended up winning the match 5-0, thus getting us our needed 3 team points. I don't regret calling that timeout at all...
You should learn how to improve your mental game.
Also, if your co-captain is a much better player than you, then yo should welcome the advice. It is a team competition. On my team, I am the co captain. I am much much better than everyone on my team. 90% of the time a time out is called, it is called by the player and I come over. For playoffs or big matches I may step in more frequently. However, the players on my team have learned 2 things: first, I typically give them good advice and get them out of jams pretty consistently, I explain things according to each players ability and communication style, so they trust me. Second, I can play well, and they see over and over that I know what I'm doing. Most people join a team I'm on to some extent because they want to learn to play better.
So my advice is to come to terms with the concept that you are playing for the team, and as such you may have to incorporate some team specific things into your mindset, such as accepting coaching. Is the coach a much better player? Are they able to communicate the information about their suggestion to you clearly so that you understand? If both of those are "yes", then its on you to learn how to be a coachable teammate.
If you don't mind me asking, what is your skill level?
Thanks hope it helps,
KMRUNOUT
If you want to win more, and get better...accept the timeouts. Having to stand up on your shot is no big deal and a very normal thing that you should do with no problem when it's needed. When you get a little better it won't bother you at all.
Nothing is worse than watching a player lose the game for the TEAM because they don't want to listen to a more knowledgeable player give them advice on what to do. It's team pool, be a team pool player.
Nothing is worse than watching a player lose the game for the TEAM because they don't want to listen to a more knowledgeable player give them advice on what to do. It's team pool, be a team pool player.
JC
Coos Cues
It's dreadfully painful to watch a lower level player with "a plan" execute it only to fail exactly where you could see they would ahead of time. And they always look befuddled when they get to that sticking point you could spot coming a mile away. But try telling them ahead of time and it's to no avail. Best to just let them succeed or fail on their own unless they ask.
JC
I find it so much easier to just sit back and wait until someone calls timeout. Tired of attitudes from people you are just trying to help. Hey just tap that ball softly against the rail. They hit it warp speed and apparently it's my fault. If they ask I am willing to help. Otherwise do your own thing.
I think that prior to the start of the league or when a new player joins the team it should be explained that the coach will be the one to call time outs and that they may occur while the player is in position to shoot.
Many times the coach waits to see what the player decides to do before calling a time out. It might be something that might cause the player to lose the game or maybe is in line to make an early eight.
Time outs are scarce and need to be used efficiently. The coach needs to preserve them for the end game whenever possible. That's when they are most useful. A good coach will only ask for the player to do what is in within their abilities On very rare occasions that rule may be broken and to ask them to do a bit more that what they normally can do. Sometimes they will surprise you and themselves and make a win out of a sure loss. There is no better feeling for them than when that happens.
Many times the coach waits to see what the player decides to do before calling a time out. It might be something that might cause the player to lose the game or maybe is in line to make an early eight.
Time outs are scarce and need to be used efficiently. The coach needs to preserve them for the end game whenever possible. That's when they are most useful. A good coach will only ask for the player to do what is in within their abilities On very rare occasions that rule may be broken and to ask them to do a bit more that what they normally can do. Sometimes they will surprise you and themselves and make a win out of a sure loss. There is no better feeling for them than when that happens.
You nailed it there! The problem with waiting for the player to ask for a timeout is that the player doesn't know that they need a timeout: they're about to make a mistake and don't realize it!
I'll draw a distinction that might be helpful: (1) timeouts on how to make a shot vs. (2) strategy-focused timeouts.
The first category is actually not that productive in a match. You're not going to teach someone how to stroke the ball in 60 seconds or so, nor how to shoot long straight shots with English, or anything like that. So you might only jump in if you see someone clearly lined up to miss a shot or bank on the wrong line and a miss likely means a loss. This category of timeout requires waiting till the player is down on the shot, because that's the only time the coach can see the problem. This also leads to a lot of "you broke my rhythm" complaints. Overall, since I can't fix a stroke in one minute, I don't give these sorts of coaches very often.
The strategic ones are huge in 8-ball, though, and I give them all the time:
- Don't shoot the ball straight in, send it rail first and carom off the other ball to open up the pocket for your other ball.
- If you make this shot, you'll only be able to see the 3 ball but if you hit that 3, you'll break out his only trouble ball and get run out on.
- Don't shoot that ball by the hole, play the bank shot because it clears out a trouble ball and is safe if you miss and gives you a shot if you make.
- You have almost no hope to run out from here. Combo in his duck, take control of the pocket, and leave him long.
- You're about to pocket the only ball you can use to get a break out. Let's find something else.
You get the idea. These types of coaches don't require the player to execute a 7-speed stroke, just to listen and then do what they're already capable of. Since they generally involve strategies the player doesn't understand without being told, the only way these coaches will happen is to call an unsolicited timeout.
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I would stop my 2s and 3s and give a safety idea or instructions to leave a hanger to block thier opponent's pocket and really put them in the driver's seat for winning the rack.Nobody listens.I do the 5s and 6s only now.Sick of talking to a brick wall.Call me when you need me.