Question for the Tin Man

[BasementDweller]

Thanks guys. Soon you will all discover I was just trolling for free instruction.

There's definitely a lot of legitimate criticism of the this set. The back and forth shots are so obviously the right shots, I'm not sure why I didn't see them. Well actually I think it's partly because I'm stuck playing a lot of bar table pool and I avoid the back and forth on those tables if I can because of the side pocket scratches. If I remove just that single blind spot from my game from this thread I would say it's all been worth it.

Much of Poolmanis' criticism is fair too, with maybe a caveat being that when all else is equal it's great to always go into the shot line properly. But I think this is actually a blind spot that better players sometimes have because all things are not always equal for us amateurs and we have to sometimes select the shot that we feel most comfortable actually making. In case you all don't know Poolmanis is an excellent pool player, with a 147 on the snooker table under his belt as well. I don't pretend that I'm in that league. I'm seriously barely more than a hobbiest that really loves pool.

The other thing is I think most players shoot shots while playing the ghost that they would never play in a real game simply due to the cost/benefit analysis. I know I would never shot that in a game but I win the rack if I avoid the scratch.

Anyway - I'll eat crow and agree with the poster that said it's easier to see others mistakes than our own. While this wasn't my best showing, it really was a raw race against the ghost, which probably worked out better as my flaws showed up more.

 

[evergruven]

Should have stun drawed off the 5 and back to the middle of the table.

I thought the same, but actually enjoyed how you hit the five, and moved the ten
I only watched the first few racks, but looks like pretty good shootin' to me
and appreciate you found the stomach to post vids..keep that mirror around

Thanks guys. Soon you will all discover I was just trolling for free instruction.

a lot of great players/posters on this site..may as well take advantage

 

[BasementDweller]

One more thing and I hope this doesn't derail the thread...

When covid first hit and everybody had an opinion on it, including my 2 high school kids, I told them that their skepticism was fine as long as it was rooted in humility and not arrogance. This here thread is a chance for me to practice what I preach.

 

[Poolmanis]

Okay. i was gonna make similar video from my own ghost match(to comparing my patterns to DB´s).
I played race to 15 but it is almost 2 hours long and harder to commentate objective way own play. So i just post it here and watch it and commentate my mistakes on patterns what i find on post and edit it later when i watch it more.
I did shoot one 59 ball 14.1 run before match to warm up and then just go for it. I was gonna play race to 30 to show more flaws but it was so exhausting because opponent ever shoots... No time to sit and rest.
Started strong but little by little my focus started to degrade. It is not surprise. Age takes toll on your stamina. Especially on eyes and brain.
Ended up beating ghost 15-6 but most of that i count good pocketing day, not so much because great patterns..

 

[Poolmanis]

Rack 1. I make mental fart on speed control on 2 ball already(1:45). I should stun through it little forward or drag it really slow to keep angle on 3 ball that way i could come two rails for 4 ball and leave angle. Now I have to draw it for position sideways to position zone and get too straight on 4. later on rack(3:55) I miss judge speed because I need to put a lot of left to cueball to make sure i wont hit 9. Common mistake that i mention on video of Bd´s ghost. sidespin puts more speed from rails... get job still done.

Rack 2. I liked how I played it

Rack 3. I accidently find better pattern on early rack what i first saw, lol. Nice run I think.

Rack 4. From 3,I think i should play to another side cut to 4 ball(16:30). 5 ball is tricky position and shooting if from right side cut i would have multiple options how to get decent to 5 and better chance to not get snookered behind 7.. where i ended up.
8 to 9 i should try get as close to center of table to get cut to 9 ball also...Anyways. i get job still done. 4-0

Rack 5.
Little tricky layout and i get in trouble and need to leave long shot to not miss 4 ball to side. Still managed to take it home and 5-0.

Rack 6. I wont take BIH even i should and shoot with bridge and get in serious trouble and luck out from there. I should probably try hard bank on 3 ball instead carom 5 but it felt too hard.. 6-0

Rack 7. I make slight speed error going to 6 ball and i should probably play to shoot 7-10 combo but i refuse it and hammer position to 7 and got lucky to get out again. 7-0

Rack 8. I hit 2 ball too thin and not have to angle to go into 5 from 3 and roll out for hard 60 degree cut shot. Still make it and 8-0-

Rack 9. I just hit hanger way too thick and follow on cueball kills speed and i have to bank ball that i normally make but need to shoot it softer that i like and miss it. Cut was possible but sidepocket scrathes looming so i refuse to play that kind of way.

 

[BasementDweller]

Thanks again PM. I don't want to read your comments until after I watch your video so I can see if I can find any mistakes. Probably won't be today though.

I played another set last night. Focusing specifically on not crossing the line (if possible) and looking for back and forth opportunities. Lost again 10-11. One thing I know is it's actually been a long time since I've even bothered to thing about my patterns. Not like this anyway. I think just focusing intently is really helping. I don't always have much to play for and it's allowed some bad habits to creep in.

I'll post the 2nd set if anyone is still interested.

 

[BasementDweller]

Poolmanis,
I'm just working through your video slowly. The thing that jumps out at me the most is how exceptional you play. You're a very enjoyable watch. I wish I could watch you compete a bit. The other thing that's strange is I could correctly predict what you were going to do almost every shot. I suppose it's the ones I can't that I need to pay attention to. There is this weird disconnect between what I see and what I actually do.

Couple small things:
Rack #2: With the 1 within reach why not play a simple little draw shot to get on the 2 and then be able to follow up along the line for the 3? You played one of my favorite shots instead -- the inside english 3 railer.

Rack #3: Just a note for me on the subtle shot you played on the 1. I too often come off the rail not close enough to the interfering ball. I then end up with my cue ball opening up and I end up out of shape.

Lost track of the rack but at 34:30: Why not go with less angle on the five so you could lag the cue ball into the 2nd rail to get straight on the six? I know that goes against the going straight into the shot line rule but I'd swear more pros would shoot it like that then the 1 rail path. That's just more a curiosity as your way almost worked

 

[Poolmanis]

Poolmanis,
I'm just working through your video slowly. The thing that jumps out at me the most is how exceptional you play. You're a very enjoyable watch. I wish I could watch you compete a bit. The other thing that's strange is I could correctly predict what you were going to do almost every shot. I suppose it's the ones I can't that I need to pay attention to. There is this weird disconnect between what I see and what I actually do.

Couple small things:
Rack #2: With the 1 within reach why not play a simple little draw shot to get on the 2 and then be able to follow up along the line for the 3? You played one of my favorite shots instead -- the inside english 3 railer.

Rack #3: Just a note for me on the subtle shot you played on the 1. I too often come off the rail not close enough to the interfering ball. I then end up with my cue ball opening up and I end up out of shape.

Lost track of the rack but at 34:30: Why not go with less angle on the five so you could lag the cue ball into the 2nd rail to get straight on the six? I know that goes against the going straight into the shot line rule but I'd swear more pros would shoot it like that then the 1 rail path. That's just more a curiosity as your way almost worked

Actually in the past i would do like that. Lately I have been working out precision one rail directions and speed. Kinda same thing what Dr. Dave had video about carom angle system. However I made system to myself that is using math and no need to use stick. So i now like to shoot with it for practice. I left about 30 degree angle and ob was close to rail to i knew cueball will dive forward about 30 degree angle after hit to end rail. That way i only need to get speed right (which was easy but i tried get too perfect) and no need any English. Both methods work well. second rail makes more margin of error to speed control and i think it is better way but i shoot sometimes shot that way i think i need practice. If you avoid to play certain shots or way you will never learn them because you wont get practice on those. That is one big reason why people hit on the wall and not getting anymore better. They use always shots they know and can do and then other ways does not get any practice. Some times 1 rail route is only possible so i want to be strong on both ways.

Let´s say you can make one shot 95 times from 100 tries and u practice it a lot and improve it to 97 or 98 from 100. That is 3% improvement. And getting better on shot that you already own is hard work and takes time.
Then another shot is hard for you some reason and you can only make it about 45 times of 100. You try avoid shooting that on game because you know you are underdog to make it. Then you finally take i and work with that shot couple days and because you were so bad on it you can improve it to 75 of 100. That is 30% better than earlier with just little effort. And now when u face it you know it is still hard shot but you are favorite to do it and it will boost your confidence.

I used too many years to practice those shots i can do and avoided those i could not. Now i do opposite. I am still improving, I think. Age of 44 it is not always so

lol. I wanted to keep post short but got carried away...

 

[The_JV]

Poolmanis,
I'm just working through your video slowly. The thing that jumps out at me the most is how exceptional you play. You're a very enjoyable watch. I wish I could watch you compete a bit. The other thing that's strange is I could correctly predict what you were going to do almost every shot. I suppose it's the ones I can't that I need to pay attention to. There is this weird disconnect between what I see and what I actually do.

Couple small things:
Rack #2: With the 1 within reach why not play a simple little draw shot to get on the 2 and then be able to follow up along the line for the 3? You played one of my favorite shots instead -- the inside english 3 railer.

Rack #3: Just a note for me on the subtle shot you played on the 1. I too often come off the rail not close enough to the interfering ball. I then end up with my cue ball opening up and I end up out of shape.

Lost track of the rack but at 34:30: Why not go with less angle on the five so you could lag the cue ball into the 2nd rail to get straight on the six? I know that goes against the going straight into the shot line rule but I'd swear more pros would shoot it like that then the 1 rail path. That's just more a curiosity as your way almost worked

I know you didn't ask me, but I compared your notes to what I saw on the related video and here are my thoughts...

Rack #2: I would have gone either way on this one on my personal table, but on something faster (which nearly everything is) the three rails makes for a full stroking shot with a massive landing zone. The touch draw is just that. 1/4 stroke at most and opens the door to bad hits, kicks, etc... Not to mention the need for the mechanical bridge to facilitate the light touch, which is the bane of most pool players, even pros...

Rack #3: Not sure on your note to self. The 1 ball was a stun/follow of an inch or two in open table. Not sure how your rail comment connects to this example..?

34:30..: I would have played for the same amount of angle but have spun into the second rail. I used to have a habit of finding the side pocket on those types of shoots, so I made this alteration to my approach.

Poolmanis just posted as I was typing this, so I'm interested to read what his thoughts were compared to mine.

 

[BasementDweller]

I know you didn't ask me, but I compared your notes to what I saw on the related video and here are my thoughts...

Rack #2: I would have gone either way on this one on my personal table, but on something faster (which nearly everything is) the three rails makes for a full stroking shot with a massive landing zone. The touch draw is just that. 1/4 stroke at most and opens the door to bad hits, kicks, etc... Not to mention the need for the mechanical bridge to facilitate the light touch, which is the bane of most pool players, even pros...

Rack #3: Not sure on your note to self. The 1 ball was a stun/follow of an inch or two in open table. Not sure how your rail comment connects to this example..?

34:30..: I would have played for the same amount of angle but have spun into the second rail. I used to have a habit of finding the side pocket on those types of shoots, so I made this alteration to my approach.

Poolmanis just posted as I was typing this, so I'm interested to read what his thoughts were compared to mine.

If you had to use a bridge on that shot I would agree but being right handed I think you could avoid it. The other shot I may have described poorly or got the rack wrong. It's just a typical scenario where say the 1 & 2 ball are close together (or any sequential balls) with the 1 being closer to the pocket. You pocket the 1, cue ball goes under the 2, side rail, and then in front of the 2. I just have a tendency of exaggerating how far from the 2 the cue ball needs to be to avoid it. I end up spinning the cue ball away for no reason, instead of shooting it flatter and getting better position. I guess the short version is I overspin these too often.

 

[BasementDweller]

Actually in the past i would do like that. Lately I have been working out precision one rail directions and speed. Kinda same thing what Dr. Dave had video about carom angle system. However I made system to myself that is using math and no need to use stick. So i now like to shoot with it for practice. I left about 30 degree angle and ob was close to rail to i knew cueball will dive forward about 30 degree angle after hit to end rail. That way i only need to get speed right (which was easy but i tried get too perfect) and no need any English. Both methods work well. second rail makes more margin of error to speed control and i think it is better way but i shoot sometimes shot that way i think i need practice. If you avoid to play certain shots or way you will never learn them because you wont get practice on those. That is one big reason why people hit on the wall and not getting anymore better. They use always shots they know and can do and then other ways does not get any practice. Some times 1 rail route is only possible so i want to be strong on both ways.

Let´s say you can make one shot 95 times from 100 tries and u practice it a lot and improve it to 97 or 98 from 100. That is 3% improvement. And getting better on shot that you already own is hard work and takes time.
Then another shot is hard for you some reason and you can only make it about 45 times of 100. You try avoid shooting that on game because you know you are underdog to make it. Then you finally take i and work with that shot couple days and because you were so bad on it you can improve it to 75 of 100. That is 30% better than earlier with just little effort. And now when u face it you know it is still hard shot but you are favorite to do it and it will boost your confidence.

I used too many years to practice those shots i can do and avoided those i could not. Now i do opposite. I am still improving, I think. Age of 44 it is not always so

lol. I wanted to keep post short but got carried away...

Thanks. I obviously need to pay more attention to the one rail tracks. I'm going to keep the video rolling because that's been as much of a help as anything. I used to do that quite a bit but haven't for quite some time. I do some stupid stuff. In my 2nd set, which I think I'll just post in the ghost thread and let this one die as Tin Man has bowed out and it has his name on it so... Anyway another thing I'm doing wrong is putting english on certain shots that don't need it, where the collision induced english would get the job done.

For me, the good news is I'm cueing better than I ever have and I think I can fix most (maybe not all ) of my pattern making decisions through continued examination and critiquing.

 

[Tin Man]

Hey BD. Wasn't trying to bow out, but I was training Friday-Sunday and go completely off the grid as those are super long days. But you're right that I'm not a great fit for online ghost reviews. PoolManis is an animal and it sounds like you guys are having fun and pushing hard to play strong, so all is well. Keep shooting straight!

 

[sjm]

Thanks. I obviously need to pay more attention to the one rail tracks. I'm going to keep the video rolling because that's been as much of a help as anything. I used to do that quite a bit but haven't for quite some time. I do some stupid stuff. In my 2nd set, which I think I'll just post in the ghost thread and let this one die as Tin Man has bowed out and it has his name on it so... Anyway another thing I'm doing wrong is putting english on certain shots that don't need it, where the collision induced english would get the job done.

For me, the good news is I'm cueing better than I ever have and I think I can fix most (maybe not all ) of my pattern making decisions through continued examination and critiquing.

Take a deep bow, Basement Dweller. You have given everyone on the forum a good example of what makes this forum great. You have solicited feedback, taken that feedback constructively, and you have already committed yourself to steps that will help you refine your game.

 

[Maniac]

All this thread is doing for me is proving how terribly inadequate I am on a pool table. IMHO, the truth is that some of us, no matter how much time we put in or how much instruction we get, are just never going to be able to shoot like many of you better players can. It's just not in us. I'm good with where I am....and that's all that matters to me.

Lots of good shooting on the posted videos. Thanks for sharing, guys!

Maniac (just a recreational player anyway)

 

[Tin Man]

All this thread is doing for me is proving how terribly inadequate I am on a pool table. IMHO, the truth is that some of us, no matter how much time we put in or how much instruction we get, are just never going to be able to shoot like many of you better players can. It's just not in us. I'm good with where I am....and that's all that matters to me.

Lots of good shooting on the posted videos. Thanks for sharing, guys!

Maniac (just a recreational player anyway)

I'm glad you are good with where you are. Too many never enjoy this game because they think happiness is on the other side of a higher fargo rate.

That said, for me personally while I enjoy the level I play at, I also enjoy getting to new levels and overcoming challenges that used to hold me back. Your statement of what the TRUTH is isn't a fact, it's a belief. You can make it true by believing it. But I can believe that we can all improve. That is truth to me. To what level can we improve, who knows? But we can improve. So I choose to try.

As I said, if this belief helps you find contentment at your level I don't want to disrupt it. I just think you can have both. Enjoyment of where you are, and enthusiasm for where we can get. How far? I don't care. Forward march.

 

[BasementDweller]

Take a deep bow, Basement Dweller. You have given everyone on the forum a good example of what makes this forum great. You have solicited feedback, taken that feedback constructively, and you have already committed yourself to steps that will help you refine your game.

Thanks sjm. That means a lot to me coming from you.

I know I have room for improvement. I'm still somewhat confident that I've taken the right approach over the years by focusing more rigidly on my technique and ball potting skills with the table time I've put in. I really don't know too many players at my level that weren't at least at some point completely dedicated to the game. I've managed to slowly improve over time while having pool at #4 or 5 in my life. I know there are many on here like me with many other responsibilities but at least for me I unlocked A WAY to improve.

Now my approach may have finally reached its conclusion and it's time to start focusing on other areas. This thread may have reached its conclusion as well. Thanks for all the input from my fellow pool playing enthusiasts!

With that, I officially put the Tin Man back on my radar.

 

[The_JV]

If you had to use a bridge on that shot I would agree but being right handed I think you could avoid it. The other shot I may have described poorly or got the rack wrong. It's just a typical scenario where say the 1 & 2 ball are close together (or any sequential balls) with the 1 being closer to the pocket. You pocket the 1, cue ball goes under the 2, side rail, and then in front of the 2. I just have a tendency of exaggerating how far from the 2 the cue ball needs to be to avoid it. I end up spinning the cue ball away for no reason, instead of shooting it flatter and getting better position. I guess the short version is I overspin these too often.

I think you may be misjudging that need for a bridge. Poolmanis plays it right handed and he's pretty stretched out. His angle would be nearly the same for the draw shot. Don't want to be cutting thin on that draw shot. You'd want the CB real close to that 1 (1 foot-ish).

At any rate... just my observation

 

[BasementDweller]

I think you may be misjudging that need for a bridge. Poolmanis plays it right handed and he's pretty stretched out. His angle would be nearly the same for the draw shot. Don't want to be cutting thin on that draw shot. You'd want the CB real close to that 1 (1 foot-ish).

At any rate... just my observation

Yep I'm wrong again. I set it up when I got home from work and had to put my right knee on the table to shoot it that way.

 

[Maniac]

Your statement of what the TRUTH is isn't a fact, it's a belief. You can make it true by believing it. But I can believe that we can all improve.

Go re-read my post. I didn't say we couldn't improve. I merely pointed out that no matter how committed we are at improving, SOME of us will never become top players. We just cannot rise to THAT level. That point that I made (and was misrepresented in your post) is indeed fact and not just a belief.

Take for example a high school football player. Let's say that through all his years of Pee-Wee through his senior year of high school he has had good coaching and has worked hard with the aspiration of being a college football star with even more hopes of someday being in the NFL. He has been getting good coaching AND committed himself to be the best football player he can be. So...he gets a scholarship to a division I college and in four years never gets off the bench for anything more than a few plays on the kick-off team. What went wrong??? Nothing. No matter the coaching and commitment he just didn't have what it took to rise to the next level.

Can pool players like me improve? Absolutely. Can all players that are committed to learning, receive outstanding instruction, and put in the hours of hard work become top tier players? Absolutely not. And anyone who believes they can are just kidding themselves.

It is good to have goals. It is a wise man who doesn't set his goals so high he cannot reach them. Many players set modest goal and sometimes never reach them. It just isn't in the realm of possibility that all players can reach the top tier. Many have tried and failed.

Everything has a plateau. Do you think we will ever see fuel dragsters do 2-seconds in the 1/4 mile? I can assure you we will not. Do you think a human being will ever run a 2-minute mile? I can assure you we will not. The list goes on.....

Improve? Yes, that I agree on. But making something come true simply because you believe it will is living one's life in a fairy tale. Just my opinion, of course, you can believe what you want.

That said Tin Man, you are a fine fellow and a very good pool player. I bet you are a very good instructor too. I would be thrilled to be able to meet you someday. Good luck with your teaching and shoot 'em straight.

Please do not read anything I said as being harshly stated. I do not mean for it to come out that way. We're all good (I hope).

Maniac

 

[Tin Man]

Go re-read my post. I didn't say we couldn't improve. I merely pointed out that no matter how committed we are at improving, SOME of us will never become top players. We just cannot rise to THAT level. That point that I made (and was misrepresented in your post) is indeed fact and not just a belief.

Take for example a high school football player. Let's say that through all his years of Pee-Wee through his senior year of high school he has had good coaching and has worked hard with the aspiration of being a college football star with even more hopes of someday being in the NFL. He has been getting good coaching AND committed himself to be the best football player he can be. So...he gets a scholarship to a division I college and in four years never gets off the bench for anything more than a few plays on the kick-off team. What went wrong??? Nothing. No matter the coaching and commitment he just didn't have what it took to rise to the next level.

Can pool players like me improve? Absolutely. Can all players that are committed to learning, receive outstanding instruction, and put in the hours of hard work become top tier players? Absolutely not. And anyone who believes they can are just kidding themselves.

It is good to have goals. It is a wise man who doesn't set his goals so high he cannot reach them. Many players set modest goal and sometimes never reach them. It just isn't in the realm of possibility that all players can reach the top tier. Many have tried and failed.

Everything has a plateau. Do you think we will ever see fuel dragsters do 2-seconds in the 1/4 mile? I can assure you we will not. Do you think a human being will ever run a 2-minute mile? I can assure you we will not. The list goes on.....

Improve? Yes, that I agree on. But making something come true simply because you believe it will is living one's life in a fairy tale. Just my opinion, of course, you can believe what you want.

That said Tin Man, you are a fine fellow and a very good pool player. I bet you are a very good instructor too. I would be thrilled to be able to meet you someday. Good luck with your teaching and shoot 'em straight.

Please do not read anything I said as being harshly stated. I do not mean for it to come out that way. We're all good (I hope).

Maniac

We're all good Maniac.

I think we're in agreement about a lot here. I agree that you are unlikely to reach Fedor Gorst's level. You agree you could still improve from where you are today. I'm not sure there's a big difference here.

One interesting thing I heard today was from a coach that said "There are facts and there are stories. Facts are things that are objective and couldn't be argued or seen differently regardless of how many people examine them. Our age is a fact. Our height is a fact. Our bank account available balance is a fact. Everything else are stories we tell ourselves. Those stories can serve us or not serve us. We get to choose what stories we guide our lives with." This was powerful for me.

I think a lot of people believe stories about their limited potential that may not serve them well. Setting a high goal and failing to reach it doesn't bother me because to me the striving is the fun part and reaching the goal is trivial. But obviously you've given this thought and prefer to beat to a different drum. No problem here on my end.