Question regarding common stroke trait of pros

Corby

Registered
somewhat new to the game but learning quickly and am obssessed... I play professional golf and spent way too many hours analysing golf swings so Pool has become a bit of an outlet for me...

Have watched a tonne of video online, one thing i noticed with a lot of the best players with very good cue ball control is that in the very beginning of their stroke the tip raises and butt drops... very prevelant in shane or efrens stroke especially

Does this motion help smooth out the stroke by using gravity as the backstroke trigger with butt dropping? Or some sort of way to feel the pendulum motion beginning?

This may be a blatantly obvious thing as I'm pretty new.
 
stroke

somewhat new to the game but learning quickly and am obssessed... I play professional golf and spent way too many hours analysing golf swings so Pool has become a bit of an outlet for me...

Have watched a tonne of video online, one thing i noticed with a lot of the best players with very good cue ball control is that in the very beginning of their stroke the tip raises and butt drops... very prevelant in shane or efrens stroke especially

Does this motion help smooth out the stroke by using gravity as the backstroke trigger with butt dropping? Or some sort of way to feel the pendulum motion beginning?

This may be a blatantly obvious thing as I'm pretty new.

I think it may be just an affectation, but I'm looking forward to other responses.

Noticed you're a pro golfer. I gave a pool lesson to a pro golfer from England two weeks ago. He's a natural at pool and an easy person to teach. May have something to do with his golf training.

I use several analogies between golf and pool in my teaching...keeping the head still and properly positioning the feet.
 
Pro golfer...you should realise that the fewer moving parts you have the more accurate and efficient the process becomes.

The butt dropping means the shoulder is moving. The shoulder doesn't have to move so it is an extra moving part.

In an ideal situation the cue should move forwards and backwards on a level plane. No up and down movement and no sideways movement. It is the easiest way to learn and the easiest to add to your muscle memory due to the fewer moving parts. Because of this it makes it very accurate in striking the cue ball which is a part that's needed in excellent cue ball control.

Some people may find it awkward to just have the elbow and wrist joints moving for example if they have a more upright stance. So you will find that people in a more upright stance tend to get their shoulder more involved. One way isn't better than the other. Just look at Mika Immonen and Judd Trump. Both at opposite ends of the scale in terms of moving parts and strokes but both have excellent cue ball control.

Like I said, there is no right way to stroke a ball but having fewer moving parts is easier to train yourself to do.
 
Pro golfer...you should realise that the fewer moving parts you have the more accurate and efficient the process becomes.

The butt dropping means the shoulder is moving. The shoulder doesn't have to move so it is an extra moving part.

In an ideal situation the cue should move forwards and backwards on a level plane. No up and down movement and no sideways movement. It is the easiest way to learn and the easiest to add to your muscle memory due to the fewer moving parts. Because of this it makes it very accurate in striking the cue ball which is a part that's needed in excellent cue ball control.

Some people may find it awkward to just have the elbow and wrist joints moving for example if they have a more upright stance. So you will find that people in a more upright stance tend to get their shoulder more involved. One way isn't better than the other. Just look at Mika Immonen and Judd Trump. Both at opposite ends of the scale in terms of moving parts and strokes but both have excellent cue ball control.

Like I said, there is no right way to stroke a ball but having fewer moving parts is easier to train yourself to do.

I'm just wondering.

What would you say about just focusing on moving the cue stick in a straight line in all planes of reference & just letting one's individual body parts do whatever it takes to get that done?

The reason I'm asking is that sometimes it seems that you've contradicted yourself.

Not that that is necessarily a bad thing as sometimes the focus is on different subjects so the context is different. It may have just been a language thing.

Sometimes it's the sum total & not the individual parts that matter discussion wise.

That's why I'm asking my question.

I'm not looking for any argument. I'm just wondering if we perhaps have a mutual understanding...or...not.
 
I agree, if you make it your point of focus on just moving your cue straight then regardless of what parts move, if the cue moves straight on all planes it will make for an accurate strike.

The problems come when that is your only point of focus...which making the cue travel level and straight takes quite a bit of focus an will move your attention from other aspects of the game like position and speed control. So you have to at some point focus on what parts are moving so that when practicing you can actually feel the moving parts. If you only have the the hinge joint of the elbow moving then you can put all your focus into the elbow when practicing. If you have the shoulder, elbow and wrist all moving a lot then that's 2 more moving parts to focus on and the timing of all 3 parts becomes more important. For example you have to drop your elbow at a certain point in the stroke to make the cue travel straight.

But, the most important thing is getting the tip to strike the white where you intended and at the angle you intended. If you have an up and down motion like Mika, or a straight back and forth motion like Judd, it doesn't matter.

I cant think of any instructor however that would teach a complete newcomer to stroke like Mika. It is far too complicated to teach a stroke of that style, especially if it is nothing like their natural stroke. First things first, just make that natural stroke a person has more accurate. This can usually be done with minor tweaks. If its naturally like Mika's or Judd's just work with it if it isn't causing too many problems to start with.
 
I agree, if you make it your point of focus on just moving your cue straight then regardless of what parts move, if the cue moves straight on all planes it will make for an accurate strike.

The problems come when that is your only point of focus...which making the cue travel level and straight takes quite a bit of focus an will move your attention from other aspects of the game like position and speed control. So you have to at some point focus on what parts are moving so that when practicing you can actually feel the moving parts. If you only have the the hinge joint of the elbow moving then you can put all your focus into the elbow when practicing. If you have the shoulder, elbow and wrist all moving a lot then that's 2 more moving parts to focus on and the timing of all 3 parts becomes more important. For example you have to drop your elbow at a certain point in the stroke to make the cue travel straight.

But, the most important thing is getting the tip to strike the white where you intended and at the angle you intended. If you have an up and down motion like Mika, or a straight back and forth motion like Judd, it doesn't matter.

I cant think of any instructor however that would teach a complete newcomer to stroke like Mika. It is far too complicated to teach a stroke of that style, especially if it is nothing like their natural stroke. First things first, just make that natural stroke a person has more accurate. This can usually be done with minor tweaks. If its naturally like Mika's or Judd's just work with it if it isn't causing too many problems to start with.

I've said it before. I never give any thought to when my elbow drops because I don't consciously make it drop. It just drops when ever it has to or wants to do so in order to keep the cue moving in a straight line.

I never focus on my stroke when playing. It's all about the things you mentioned for pocketing the ball & position like speed, spin, rails etc.

My many moving parts stroke never distracts me from my playing of the game. I never give any of the parts a thought.

I would think that using a stroke that requires a rather precise setup & keeping one's elbow still the whole time would do more of what you're talking about as being a distraction.

I guess we agree but then we get off when you talk about teaching a stroke.

To me...the stick is straight so why not move it straight.

To me...the less moving parts theory is faulty.

I'd never coach baseball, basketball or even golf with the less moving parts line of thought, at least not until I see that the player has trouble with some aspect of the moving parts that is causing them trouble. If that can't be fixed, then that player is playing with a disability when that part is taken out of the action.

I've successfully coached those sports along with football & I was also offered a job teaching tennis when I was 21 years old.

In sports, the use of the wrist & elbows are very important as is the grip on a bat, club, or racket.

I did not teach my own Sons a golf swing that was easy, I taught them an athletically 'correct' golf swing.

In sports, one has to feel things & then just let the subconscious rule that feeling.

At least that's how I see (& feel) things.

Thanks for answering my question.

Like I said, I think we agree but just go off when it comes to the teaching end of it.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 
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I'm not debating whether it's right or wrong to learn to stroke it the way in which strickland/shane VB, efren, mika do.. I'm just interested in why this affect happens amongst good players. I see a tonne of mediocre players at different halls who have very level strokes but the best players I see have a little bit bounce in their stroke it seems.
 
Mastering any game

starts with fundamentals. It will be uncomfortable for a period of time. At such time these are repeated thousands of times the mind is programmed, then variations are not only possible but necessary. I recommend a fluid level stroke to beginners. Later any shoulder movement will not usually be a problem for accuracy. It may change the stroke, but for most this is the least of the problem if the basics are there. In the martial arts we trained for years to perfect consistency and for a good reason. Only when these basics are perfected can we be fluid and strong when not in the appropriate balance or stance we earlier practiced. I believe that it is possible to become very good at pool and to take shortcuts getting there. The problem is you reach a plateau and doubtfully will ever advance to the next level. These are the players who wonder why they lose in tournaments and or for money. The ego and confidence is there, but the fundamentals are usually lacking. I paid my dues from 1964 till 1966. I will always be thankful for spending those hundreds of hours developing a stroke that could fluidly move the ball around the table. I would not have done this without being mentored by one of the best and heeding his advice.
 
Appreciate the advice from everyone,

to give a bit more of a background I played a lot of pool from probably 10-13 then golf was the only thing that mattered.. I hadn't touched a cue since then up until 1.5 months ago at age 26.

but in that 1.5 months ive probably logged an average of 5 hours a day of pool and watched a couple hours of pool online each night before bed.. I've gotten a lot better fast and managed to run a couple racks of 9 ball on a diamond 7 footer and have come close on the 9 footers at our local hall.. I have no idea where my game would stack up as the only opponent ive ever had is a good buddy of mine and my dad.

Another question i had was what would be a decent starter cue for someone like me who is relatively new, not that wealthy, and wants to take the game serious?
..
below is my stroke tonight with my broken 13 dollar cue from sports authority

(not sure how to embed)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ph2Mnt-ZKg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzt4QyBDyGo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br-z_al5hMo

I think i had a very straight line stroke as that was all i focused on before, however I felt that i got steery/jabby that way and liked the feel of the pendulum stroke letting the weight of the cue do more of the work.. so I tried to give myself a bit more shaft to play with and move my forearm into a more vertical position at address.
 
Corby's stroke

Not bad Corby. You are off to a better start than most. If I were your coach I would recommend a few slight changes. Your stroke is a little too mechanical which creates a good poke, but not a stroke. You followed through which is a big plus. The next is debatable, but if you raise up a few inches till your upper arm is more parallel to the floor the cue butt will not raise up and go back down as you go forward. Next two important things: Loosen up your back hand a bit, especially the wrist. If you do, and with a little shorter drawback, and an extra two or three inches of follow through it becomes more of a stroke. If you are looking to learn to really move the ball, I would recommend moving both hands at least 2-4 inches forward. What you lose in back stroke you gain in wrist follow through. One last thing is I see your closed bridge could use a little work. It will feel uncomfortable for awhile, but the finger wrapped around the cue should be a little tighter. Think of the meat of the finger lightly moving as you pass through. This will help you to hit harder and keep on aim. Most who use a loose bridge and hit hard have a difficult time not moving the front hand at impact. Therefore miss shots when trying to hit with power.
Remember your muscles do not create power. Be fluid with speed. Good luck
 
The most important part of cueing is hitting the white where you want. Take a run up to the ball if it helps hitting the white where you want. Since you're a golfer, think Happy Gilmore. Just kidding :-)

The reason the top pool players have all these varying strokes is because they've not paid much attention to it, as Rick suggests. All they were bothered about when learning was hitting the ball where they want and getting the reaction on the white how they predicted. It really doesn't matter how you skin the cat, as long as it gets skinned.

When you look at snooker players they all have very similar cue actions. Ronnie O'Sullivan probably has the most accurate cue action but his is one that would never be taught to a snooker new comer. He drops his elbow quite a lot, his cue has a rocking up and down motion to it. But, it makes for a very fluent precise stroke. Technique will get you so far in pool, as with golf. The rest is down to the person holding the cue or club.

One common trait amongst 95% of pros is the vertical forearm that you mention. If you have the elbow fixed, the tip as close to the white as possible, the forearm vertical at address then in theory you should hit very very close on the vertical axis of the ball you intended. Then all you have to worry about is keeping it straight and not snaking or curving into the ball to make the horizontal strike on the white accurate.

One thing I would say on your stroke is regarding the grip. Looks to me that the grip doesn't release any finger from the back, so when you pull back all the way to your bridge with the tip that's why the butt goes up and the tip goes down.
 
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IMHO you may not want a "loop" in your stroke like some of the pros. It's not for everyone.

I teach golf, too--there are tons of similarities but it's wonderful that pool (played right) will not harm your back the way golf can...
 
Pro golfer...you should realise that the fewer moving parts you have the more accurate and efficient the process becomes.
...snip....

This is always the default position whenever the pendulum vs. piston stroke debate comes up. However, I don't think the efficiency argument is a good one. I think there are countless examples of things in nature and also man made creations that become more efficient as parts are added. Sometimes additional parts can smooth out the operation.

Now if you want to keep it simple, that's another story.

Now back to the thread...
 
This is always the default position whenever the pendulum vs. piston stroke debate comes up. However, I don't think the efficiency argument is a good one. I think there are countless examples of things in nature and also man made creations that become more efficient as parts are added. Sometimes additional parts can smooth out the operation.

Now if you want to keep it simple, that's another story.

Now back to the thread...

I agree with you & there is more to it but we know to what that discussion leads here on AZB.
 
Appreciate the advice from everyone,

to give a bit more of a background I played a lot of pool from probably 10-13 then golf was the only thing that mattered.. I hadn't touched a cue since then up until 1.5 months ago at age 26.

but in that 1.5 months ive probably logged an average of 5 hours a day of pool and watched a couple hours of pool online each night before bed.. I've gotten a lot better fast and managed to run a couple racks of 9 ball on a diamond 7 footer and have come close on the 9 footers at our local hall.. I have no idea where my game would stack up as the only opponent ive ever had is a good buddy of mine and my dad.

Another question i had was what would be a decent starter cue for someone like me who is relatively new, not that wealthy, and wants to take the game serious?
..
below is my stroke tonight with my broken 13 dollar cue from sports authority

(not sure how to embed)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ph2Mnt-ZKg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzt4QyBDyGo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br-z_al5hMo

I think i had a very straight line stroke as that was all i focused on before, however I felt that i got steery/jabby that way and liked the feel of the pendulum stroke letting the weight of the cue do more of the work.. so I tried to give myself a bit more shaft to play with and move my forearm into a more vertical position at address.

Corby, it's hard to tell for sure but I think you may have a little too much weight on your front leg. That would mean that your feet need a slight adjustment. A sure sign would be if you feel fatigue or even strain in your bridge arm shoulder after playing for a decent length of time.

Keep in mind that the lean should be more to the back leg than the front.

There was something gnawing at me about your stroke but I think it may all be related to that slight lean forward that you've got going on.
 
Appreciate the advice from everyone,

to give a bit more of a background I played a lot of pool from probably 10-13 then golf was the only thing that mattered.. I hadn't touched a cue since then up until 1.5 months ago at age 26.

but in that 1.5 months ive probably logged an average of 5 hours a day of pool and watched a couple hours of pool online each night before bed.. I've gotten a lot better fast and managed to run a couple racks of 9 ball on a diamond 7 footer and have come close on the 9 footers at our local hall.. I have no idea where my game would stack up as the only opponent ive ever had is a good buddy of mine and my dad.

Another question i had was what would be a decent starter cue for someone like me who is relatively new, not that wealthy, and wants to take the game serious?
..
below is my stroke tonight with my broken 13 dollar cue from sports authority

(not sure how to embed)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ph2Mnt-ZKg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzt4QyBDyGo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br-z_al5hMo

I think i had a very straight line stroke as that was all i focused on before, however I felt that i got steery/jabby that way and liked the feel of the pendulum stroke letting the weight of the cue do more of the work.. so I tried to give myself a bit more shaft to play with and move my forearm into a more vertical position at address.

If you really want to work on your stroke and fundamentals you can't go wrong getting Mark Wilson's book Play Great Pool, or going to see one of several quailfied instructors (several post here). As far as cues go I think a Cuetec R360 might be right up your alley as far as what you said you are looking for.
 
A Cuetec with a 360 shaft is a good option.

Another would be a McDermott with a G-Core shaft for about $150.00 or less.

Or any used cue with one of the LD shafts like OB, Predator, Tiger, ec.
 
looking into both cues.. I guess ordering online is best option as it doesnt seem there is many places to buy a cue here in orlando..

Appreciate everyones advice on everything, I implemented a few things that you guys pointed out. I also have worked on my pre stroke waggle/practice strokes trying to let the tip bob and move just a small amount to keep things active so that my stroke is smoother... felt like before I was rather stiff and contrived.. I feel much more precise and smooth. My table is an 8 footer with snooker style very tight pockets and a horrible bumpy cloth.. but I am pocketing consistently for the first time on it.

here is from last night:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTcf6bA6xTA
 
Donny Lutz and I are nearby you in Gainesville, Florida--Donny has some beautiful cues for sale--he plays tests and works with each one carefully--and although I rarely recommend players to him because some players can seriously bust chops you sound like a good candidate for a much better cue. Send him a PM?
 
Corby...That was a nice pendulum stroke in your video! There are several similarities between golf and pool, and many pro pool players are also good golfers. Check your PM's.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Appreciate the advice from everyone,

to give a bit more of a background I played a lot of pool from probably 10-13 then golf was the only thing that mattered.. I hadn't touched a cue since then up until 1.5 months ago at age 26.

but in that 1.5 months ive probably logged an average of 5 hours a day of pool and watched a couple hours of pool online each night before bed.. I've gotten a lot better fast and managed to run a couple racks of 9 ball on a diamond 7 footer and have come close on the 9 footers at our local hall.. I have no idea where my game would stack up as the only opponent ive ever had is a good buddy of mine and my dad.

Another question i had was what would be a decent starter cue for someone like me who is relatively new, not that wealthy, and wants to take the game serious?
..
below is my stroke tonight with my broken 13 dollar cue from sports authority

(not sure how to embed)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ph2Mnt-ZKg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzt4QyBDyGo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br-z_al5hMo

I think i had a very straight line stroke as that was all i focused on before, however I felt that i got steery/jabby that way and liked the feel of the pendulum stroke letting the weight of the cue do more of the work.. so I tried to give myself a bit more shaft to play with and move my forearm into a more vertical position at address.
 
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