Question Regarding Handicapped Tournaments

C

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Do all various ranks of players need to have an equal chance to win the tournament for handicapping / rankings in a weekly 9-ball tournament to be considered as fair?

Of our 5 various rankings, our highest ranked players still seem to dominate the high finishes in our tournament, despite having to win 5 games before our lowest ranked players win 2 games. It’s not like the lower ranked are complaining about not having a big enough spot, but as TD, it is certainly something I have been aware of.

My feeling has always been for 9-ball, even the lowest ranked players shouldn’t be able to win a match even against the highest ranked players on one single lucky shot or one hung up 9-ball.
 
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ChrisinNC said:
Do all various ranks of players need to have an equal chance to win the tournament for handicapping / rankings in a weekly 9-ball tournament to be considered as fair?

Of our 5 various rankings, our highest ranked players still seem to dominate the high finishes in our tournament, despite having to win 5 games before our lowest ranked players win 2 games.

My feeling has always been for 9-ball, even the lowest ranked players shouldn’t be able to win a match even against the highest ranked players on one single lucky shot or one hung up 9-ball.
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This is my biggest problem with pool handicapping--the belief that everyone should have an equal chance at winning.

I'm more in favor of tiered competition. Segregate by skill level. Let anyone enter the highest level, but keep the A players away from the D competition.
 
DeeDeeCues said:
This is my biggest problem with pool handicapping--the belief that everyone should have an equal chance at winning.

I'm more in favor of tiered competition. Segregate by skill level. Let anyone enter the highest level, but keep the A players away from the D competition.
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We feel like it is very beneficial for the lower ranked / lower skilled players to have the opportunity to play matches against the higher skilled players.

The problem is most of them feel their best chance to win the game/match against the considerably higher skilled players is to roll the 9-ball every chance they get - even the very low percentage opportunities. That is not much benefit to improving their games, even though it often may be their best chance as opposed to running out, which presents a dilemma for them as far as what to do.

We do occasionally have tournaments for just a lower ranked players, but we just don’t have enough players at any skill level to do that on a regular basis.
 
ChrisinNC said:
We feel like it is very beneficial for the lower ranked / lower skilled players to have the opportunity to play matches against the higher skilled players.

The problem is most of them feel their best chance to win the game/match against the considerably higher skilled players is to roll the 9-ball every chance they get - even the very low percentage opportunities. That is not much benefit to improving their games, even though it often may be their best chance as opposed to running out, which presents a dilemma for them as far as what to do.

We do occasionally have tournaments for just a lower ranked players, but we just don’t have enough players at any skill level to do that on a regular basis.
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I don't see the percentage in punishing the players who have worked hardest at getting better in any scenario. Give the lower players a bit of a leg-up, fine. Make it so the better players have to play below their potential AND the lower lever has to still play well.

As for your specific problem of players only taking fliers on the nine, well, they are bangers and have no interest in getting better.
 
ChrisinNC said:
Do all various ranks of players need to have an equal chance to win the tournament for handicapping / rankings in a weekly 9-ball tournament to be considered as fair?

Of our 5 various rankings, our highest ranked players still seem to dominate the high finishes in our tournament, despite having to win 5 games before our lowest ranked players win 2 games. It’s not like the lower ranked are complaining about not having a big enough spot, but as TD, it is certainly something I have been aware of.

My feeling has always been for 9-ball, even the lowest ranked players shouldn’t be able to win a match even against the highest ranked players on one single lucky shot or one hung up 9-ball.
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In most "fair" handicapped events the best players still win most of the time. However where the handicaps are not fair to the skill level, the middle range tends to win more. Say a B+ playing as a C, they would be able to beat a solid A with more of a handicap than they deserve. For a D or C player to beat even a good B player in a 5-2 race the higher level player usually will need to mess up towards the end of a rack and give the other player easy run out or the other player has to get a bit lucky and crap in a 9 or some other balls.

I have noticed in rooms that are very generous with handing out too low of a handicap to players the events are filled, but in places where everyone plays even or handicaps are in line with actual skill get a lot less players unless there is a high parity of skill, like 90% of the players are top B or A players and they all pretty much play even.
 
alstl said:
My experience with handicap tournaments is the top players outruns the handicap most of the time.
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Yes, that’s how I feel it should be - if the top players play smart they still should win most of the time. As one of those higher ranked myself though, I’m wondering if that influences my opinion? I’m trying to remain as fair a TD as I possibly can, which does present a bit of a conflict.

That of course brings up another question - Is their too much conflict of interest for a TD to play in the tournament they are running? I do play in our tournaments when I can, and none of our players have complained.

We do have plenty of players that are competent in running the flow chart and announcing matches if I’m currently playing a match. We also have plenty of experienced players that can be called on to judge a shot or make a ruling, if I’m involved in a match.

Also, no one has complained as to my ranking of myself, as I’m the oldest of all the highest ranked group of players we have, and there are certainly at least a few others that win more than I do.
 
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I liken it to bowling handicapping. Casual leagues’ handicap was 90%, more serious competitive leagues 80%. So over time, even with a 90% handicap the better players on average will have the advantage. Kinda like Vegas casinos and Native American casinos. 😁

To make it totally fair handicap would be 100% but I don’t believe in that. Removes the incentive to improve.

P.S. ask me about “balance of power” rules in auto racing to improve “the show”. 😡
 
The top players should have the advantage, however slight it is. The problem in my area is that the top players were winning fairly often, so they started capping the tournament. It went from open (with handicaps), to 720 and under, to 700 and under, and now is at 650 and under. The cream is still rising to the top, but the top is a lot lower.
 
ChrisinNC said:
Do all various ranks of players need to have an equal chance to win the tournament for handicapping / rankings in a weekly 9-ball tournament to be considered as fair?

Of our 5 various rankings, our highest ranked players still seem to dominate the high finishes in our tournament, despite having to win 5 games before our lowest ranked players win 2 games. It’s not like the lower ranked are complaining about not having a big enough spot, but as TD, it is certainly something I have been aware of.

My feeling has always been for 9-ball, even the lowest ranked players shouldn’t be able to win a match even against the highest ranked players on one single lucky shot or one hung up 9-ball.
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As a lowly player, I never expect an equal chance in a handicapped tournament. "Some" chance is all that I expect. So 2 games on the wire against a FR 680 is fine with me, even though I've never managed to win such a matchup.
 
1. First of all, this is the age of the internet, so a tournament is not the place where a D player should be learning the game by playing against an A player, it will do very little in terms of learning to play correctly. The C and D players should be viewing internet and live matches of much better players to learn how they manage the game. Most players ranked C or D will be so overwhelmed by an A when cash is on the line; that their mind will not be in a learning mode at all.

2. I am a firm believer that true handicapped tournaments should separate C& D levels from A and B levels, if the experience for all is to be truly enjoyable and rewarding at various levels.

3. If you must mix all four levels in one tournament and cannot run separate A/B and C/d brackets; then the handicaps ( spots) should not be games on the wire but a spot based on last ball pocketed to win- a legal 9 always wins, and, in addition, when playing an A, for example, The B gets last two balls, the C gets last 4 balls, and the D gets last 5 balls---- always with Alternate breaks.

4. In this format, when a D plays an A - on his alternate break he can pocket a ball on the break, and then either pocket the 9 legally or just make 3 more balls in order and he wins that rack. This gives everyone best chance at EQUAL winning, if that is the true goal of the tournament.

5. Handicapping by giving a D player games on the wire against true A players is a waste of time, this only encourages foolish play by the D player without regard for learning proper game management skills.
 
ChrisinNC said:
Yes, that’s how I feel it should be - if the top players play smart they still should win most of the time. As one of those higher ranked myself though, I’m wondering if that influences my opinion? I’m trying to remain as fair a TD as I possibly can, which does present a bit of a conflict.

That of course brings up another question - Is their too much conflict of interest for a TD to play in the tournament they are running? I do play in our tournaments when I can, and none of our players have complained.

We do have plenty of players that are competent in running the flow chart and announcing matches if I’m currently playing a match. We also have plenty of experienced players that can be called on to judge a shot or make a ruling, if I’m involved in a match.

Also, no one has complained as to my ranking of myself, as I’m the oldest of all the highest ranked group of players we have, and there are certainly at least a few others that win more than I do.
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As long as your handicap system is transparent and properly explained I don't see why anybody would complain about you playing in the tournament. It's been 20 years since I played in a handicap tournament in St Louis and some high level players used to show up. A young Justin Bergman used to show up and he held his own against veteran players. The big money was the Calcutta.
 
alstl said:
A young Justin Bergman used to show up and he held his own against veteran players. The big money was the Calcutta.
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No kidding - Justin Bergman at 12 would be ranked with our highest players and would figure to win most of those matchups!
 
Fair handicapping is an abstract. Two ways are to handicap according to the best player in each class or by the mean average score of each class. If you have some really bad players on bottom and/or really good players on top, they are going to force some adjustments to be made. You may have to meet with some players that are winning too much privately and explain you have to adjust their personal handicap a little. Maybe a + or - behind a players rating to acknowledge they are getting a special rating.

No matter how hard you try fair handicapping remains impossible. The mental game of your D player facing another D or an A is going to be totally different with skill level reflecting this mental issue.

Another thing, years of experience competing give your top level players a reserve far deeper than your beginners have. If you managed to handicap so well that a player in your lowest class faces a player from your highest class in the final the odds of the lowest class player coming through to win are still almost zero.

I have been a successful competitor at over a half-dozen widely varied pursuits. Knowing how to compete is a skillset in itself and something I take with me no matter the form of competition. I begin shooting pistol competition after the season had started. I quickly climbed the ranks but since every match counted in my average I peaked out in "A" class for the championship match, Master class still above. I knew there were four or five Master class shooters sandbagging in "A" class so other than the overall it was the toughest class to win. One year the top three overall scores were turned in by "A" class shooters.

Never-the-less, I decided to win "A" division several weeks before the championship which called for very close to 100% output, maybe a new level for me. Won that championship, set an overall record the next year that others had been chasing for fifteen years. Not because I was better with a pistol, maybe because I was better as a competitor. Few if any of my competitors had played a hundred a game eight or nine ball!

Good luck with your handicapping. If most people are happy that is probably as good as it gets. You can try slight changes, too big of changes will probably do more harm than good trying to please all people.

Hu
 
I would argue that it would be unfair to average and better players, if weaker players win more often. Giving them a chance is one thing, but they should have to do some work to win.

I would also disagree with @mikemosconi above: I would prefer games on the wire only, not giving balls. Make it a short race (5/4) and things can happen.

I get it, handicapping events is always asking for lamenting and arguing. Kudos to TDs!
 
Handicapping works fine until there is huge difference in the skills of players.

For example, in our weekly tournament I'm a "-3". Which means I give the average player, a "9", 3 games in a race to 7.

But then there is the even weaker players, 8, 7, 6, who get the games plus the handicapped ball(s).

For example, I played a 7 last week. They got start winning 3-0, but still have to win 4 games even with 7,8,9 as there game balls.

If you play it smartly, you still end up crushing them. My "7" opponent won 1 game last week when I hung a 9 ball.

I'd rather give them 5 games in a race to 7 with nothing wild... because the wild balls totally change how I have to play.
 
stewie said:
I would argue that it would be unfair to average and better players, if weaker players win more often. Giving them a chance is one thing, but they should have to do some work to win.

I would also disagree with @mikemosconi above: I would prefer games on the wire only, not giving balls. Make it a short race (5/4) and things can happen.

I get it, handicapping events is always asking for lamenting and arguing. Kudos to TDs!
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Agreed. If you alienate the better players, you have alienated the most passionate players.
 
I've ran three tournaments in my life and all have been non handicapped straight pool tournaments. I let it be known months ahead of tournament time that it was non handicapped and surprisingly enough, I had good turnouts. Although, Amateur 14.1 is a slog to get through, which is why I will probably do more single elimination tournaments just to be done sooner.
 
If using a proper handicapping system (like Elo-based, which FargoRate also is) the operator could pick the percentages, be it 50-50 or in favor of one of two major groups ("weak players" and "strong players"). My impression based on some experience is that generally this percentage is 65-35 in favor of stronger group. Otherwise they would avoid such tournaments.

That said, there is room for experiment (as long as you are using a proper system once again, and as long as your participants could hold your experiments), so one could make it 60-40 or even 55-45 and see where it leads to.
 
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