Question regarding retapering a shaft

Danktrees

Danktrees

RIP RS
Silver Member
Hey guys I just wanted some cuemaker's thoughts and opinion regarding this matter. When making shafts for their cues, many cuemakers spend much time waiting in between cuts in order to let the shaft settle from the heat and stressed caused by the cut before turning it down again. What I am wondering is if this process should be used when retapering a shaft as well.

Normally, guys take their 13mm shafts to a cuemaker and get it turned down to 12.2mm or whatever they desire within 10-20 minutes. What I want to ask is if this would cause problems later on. From what I've read, cuemakers tend to wait weeks and possibly months between each small cut they make on their shaft when making them for their cues. So would making a pretty large cut/retaper of 1mm (going from 13mm to 12mm) within a few minutes cause problems for the shaft?
 
Danktrees said:
Hey guys I just wanted some cuemaker's thoughts and opinion regarding this matter. When making shafts for their cues, many cuemakers spend much time waiting in between cuts in order to let the shaft settle from the heat and stressed caused by the cut before turning it down again. What I am wondering is if this process should be used when retapering a shaft as well.

Normally, guys take their 13mm shafts to a cuemaker and get it turned down to 12.2mm or whatever they desire within 10-20 minutes. What I want to ask is if this would cause problems later on. From what I've read, cuemakers tend to wait weeks and possibly months between each small cut they make on their shaft when making them for their cues. So would making a pretty large cut/retaper of 1mm (going from 13mm to 12mm) within a few minutes cause problems for the shaft?
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Well it all depends on what you mean by small cuts. Some makers take more cuts and other less. I take 8 cuts waiting between 6 weeks and 6 months between cuts. I'd say this is probably slightly more than average but I don't know for sure. Never-the-less, that 8 cuts going from 1 inch (25.4 mm) to 13 mm which averages over 1.5 mil. per cut so I don't feel 1 mm is to great. Of coarse there may be a strong fiber of wood in that last mm that will allow the shaft to go south when cut but this same scenario would occur if there were 5 cuts taken in that last mm.

Dick
 
So would making a pretty large cut/retaper of 1mm (going from 13mm to 12mm) within a few minutes cause problems for the shaft?
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i wouldn't do it to my shaft.

i would much rather cut than sand 1mm if doing it immediately.sanding seems to generate more heat.as far as sanding from 13mm to 12mm in one quick session,i feel it's too much.
 
I hate to brandish my credentials over & over , but this is my 26th year of cue repair & 24th year of cue making. I CUT my shafts 6-8 times to my final size. That size is .530". That leaves me room to make a 13.5mm -12mm shaft. I SAND all shafts to their final size. I make a mark at each inch & sand to a predetermined size. I have shafts that have been hanging for 4 or more years & they are still straight. Sanding these shafts to their final size has not affected the stabillity of any of these shafts, for the past 26 years. In my experience cutting a shaft from a 1' dowel to a much smaller size too quickly will definetly cause warpage problems. However, once a piece of wood has been cut at proper intervals, to release both tention & moisture, that wood can be cut or sanded with no adverse affects. Thuse a shaft that has been cut properly to a size close to 13mm will not be adversely affected by sanding or cutting to a smaller size. I live in an area where there are a lot of people that play with cue tips measureing as low as 11mm...JER
 
The only reason I can think of to sand a shaft for any reason other than removing roughness from cutting, or other smoothing, would be if it was too warped to cut. Sanding just seems so imprecise to me.... like skinning a deer with a rock instead of a knife!
I don't doubt that it can be done, and done well though.
 
Thuse a shaft that has been cut properly to a size close to 13mm will not be adversely affected by sanding or cutting to a smaller size. I live in an area where there are a lot of people that play with cue tips measureing as low as 11mm...JER/QUOTE]

just out of curiosity,are you saying that you would sand one from 13mm to 11mm at once?not doubting you,just curious.you have been doing this far longer than i have.

i final sand my shafts too after i cut them to .520 at the tip end,but i would be scared to death of the heat generated by sanding 2mm off at once.i am basically just sanding my smooth.

years ago,i did have a cue repairman sand a PH break shaft of mine down from 13.5mm to 12.75mm in one session and it warped immediately,when he gave it back to me it was still warm to the touch and it went from straight to severely warped.ever since then i am hesitant to sand more than maybe 1/4mm off at once on anyone's shaft.
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I think a good rule is .025" cut, let sit for 6 weeks.
Anything more and faster, is rushing it imo.
 
JoeyInCali said:
I think a good rule is .025" cut, let sit for 6 weeks.
Anything more and faster, is rushing it imo.
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Every one has their own parameters. If it works well for you then that's the way for you to do it. Joey, at 25.4 mm = inch means approx .040 thousandths to a mm. Removing only .025 ths at a time means you are making approx 21 passes to go from 1 inch to 13mm. That's a pretty long time. About 2.5 years to make a shaft blank. I take 8 passes and have never had any problems going from 1 inch to shaft blank size in about 1 year.

Dick
 
rhncue said:
Every one has their own parameters. If it works well for you then that's the way for you to do it. Joey, at 25.4 mm = inch means approx .040 thousandths to a mm. Removing only .025 ths at a time means you are making approx 21 passes to go from 1 inch to 13mm. That's a pretty long time. About 2.5 years to make a shaft blank. I take 8 passes and have never had any problems going from 1 inch to shaft blank size in about 1 year.

Dick
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Sorry Dick, I meant after the shaft already has a taper.
By then it's at .600" end.
I cone to .650" end after manually punching the holes ( thanks to Sherm ).
 
I take HUGE initial cuts on shafts. I've always thought it was ridiculous to "Baby" a bunch of wood you're going to just turn to sawdust anyway. It's not a matter of time, either, it's about efficiency. I sometimes wait 6 months or more between cuts.
I take 1 inch dowels to .580 at the tip end in 2-3 cuts. THEN I start in with the small cuts, (3 more @ about .010 each) marking any that move. If you use quality wood, this will yield the same results as cutting them 100 times.
I don't like cutting much more than half a millimeter off of a finished shaft at a time. A day or two between cuts is what I like to do if I cut more.
 
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Sheldon said:
The only reason I can think of to sand a shaft for any reason other than removing roughness from cutting, or other smoothing, would be if it was too warped to cut. Sanding just seems so imprecise to me.... like skinning a deer with a rock instead of a knife!
I don't doubt that it can be done, and done well though.
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I'm curious how many of the CM's use a round pole sander to retaper shafts. I use the saw machine to get my shafts to 13mm (incrementaly as Dick mentioned) but if someone wants one re-tapered there's nothing like the round pole sander once you've learned to use it properly. You can get carried away with one if you're not experienced but it's one of the "must have" machines in a cue shop IMHO. oops, maybe I'm giving up too much with that tidbit ;)
 
This is the schedule I use for cutting shafts,(starting with a 1"dowel).
I don't touch the dowels til they are at my place for at least a year.
I wait 2 weeks between these cuts
1st cut to .700
2nd cut to .650
3rd cut to .600

I wait 1 month between these cuts
4th cut to .575
5th cut to .550
6th cut to .530
7th I leave it at this size til I need it for a shaft & then I sand it to my taper .512 at the business end.
I sand, starting with 800 grit & the lathe running. Then I sand with the grain & the lathe stationary. Then I measure at 1 inch intervals & finish sanding with decreasing sanding grits & sanding with the grain at every grit number. I always use my shaft sanding prep, to raise the grain.
Like it's been said before, there are a dozen ways to do every thing...JER
 
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
This is the schedule I use for cutting shafts,(starting with a 1"dowel).
I don't touch the dowels til they are at my place for at least a year.
I wait 2 weeks between these cuts
1st cut to .700
2nd cut to .650
3rd cut to .600

I wait 1 month between these cuts
4th cut to .575
5th cut to .550
6th cut to .530
7th I leave it at this size til I need it for a shaft & then I sand it to my taper .512 at the business end.
I sand, starting with 800 grit & the lathe running. Then I sand with the grain & the lathe stationary. Then I measure at 1 inch intervals & finish sanding with decreasing sanding grits & sanding with the grain at every grit number. I always use my shaft sanding prep, to raise the grain.
Like it's been said before, there are a dozen ways to do every thing...JER
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Are all of these cuts done using the same taper your shaft will be when finished. In otherwords, if you use a pro taper is you first cut done as a pro taper to .700" at the tip end. Also, what is the best method for sanding? Do any of you use a snading block or do you "cradle" the sandpaper around the shaft. The reason I ask is every now and then when I am sanding I end up with a shaft out of round. I usually just cradle the sandpaper around the shaft as it is spinning holding the paper with both hands. I hope how I am descibing makes sense.

Thanks,

Eric
 
yea i knew everyone has their own way of doing this but i was just wondering if taking it from 13 to 12 in one go is ok.

but i guess the jury is still out on that as some have said it shouldnt be a problem but others are hesitant to do it.

its just that im not a cue maker so if i need a shaft turned down i tend to get it done all at once. if i get a little taken down, let it settle and come back a month later i get charged again. if i go that route i get charged twice which adds another 50-70 to the cost of the shaft while at the same time making it worth less than a full shaft lol.
 
Danktrees said:
yea i knew everyone has their own way of doing this but i was just wondering if taking it from 13 to 12 in one go is ok.

but i guess the jury is still out on that as some have said it shouldnt be a problem but others are hesitant to do it.

its just that im not a cue maker so if i need a shaft turned down i tend to get it done all at once. if i get a little taken down, let it settle and come back a month later i get charged again. if i go that route i get charged twice which adds another 50-70 to the cost of the shaft while at the same time making it worth less than a full shaft lol.
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Let me say this, I take my shaft blanks down to between 13.4 and 13.5 mm and then they hang until needed to be made into a shaft for a cue. When the time comes they are then turned from the hanging size to the final size which can be anywhere from 12 to 13.25 mm in one pass and I've done this probably done this at least on 2000 shafts. I do use Nelsonite during the different stages of turning the dowel into a shaft so maybe it is that but I've had no problems myself.

Dick
 
Danktrees said:
Hey guys I just wanted some cuemaker's thoughts and opinion regarding this matter. When making shafts for their cues, many cuemakers spend much time waiting in between cuts in order to let the shaft settle from the heat and stressed caused by the cut before turning it down again. What I am wondering is if this process should be used when retapering a shaft as well.

Normally, guys take their 13mm shafts to a cuemaker and get it turned down to 12.2mm or whatever they desire within 10-20 minutes. What I want to ask is if this would cause problems later on. From what I've read, cuemakers tend to wait weeks and possibly months between each small cut they make on their shaft when making them for their cues. So would making a pretty large cut/retaper of 1mm (going from 13mm to 12mm) within a few minutes cause problems for the shaft?[/QUOT


You can retaper a shaft down 1mm in one sitting BUT if the cm or repair man builds up to much heat while sanding this will cause a problem. I have taken down many shafts for customers and had no problems, except one guy who left his cue in the car the next day and baked it into a pretzel. I cut my shafts down in 6 cuts and then they hang until they are needed. If a shaft is moving after the second cut it gets scrapped. I can sand down to final and not have any movement, but you cant build up alot of heat. Hopefully this helps.
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After I've cut the ferrule to size, I do the entire T/D with sandpaper starting with FRESH 120 grit. That's pretty coarse. The key to avoiding heat is to use fresh paper that isn't loaded-up or worn-out. Paper that isn't cutting anymore is just creating friction/heat; burnishing really.

The 120 grit is the work-horse that gets me to near finished size. From there I progress through the finer grits to remove the sanding marks left from the previous grits, finishing up with 1,000 grit. Seal, wax & deliver.
Generally 20 mins. start to finish.

There are no guarantees with a T/D. If a shaft is going to move, it's going to move. Most all don't though. The wood really doesn't care how long you take. If the wood has internal stress, it will still be there a week from now, a month from now or a year from now. You can't change that anymore than you can change the grain pattern. The growth ring/lines will tell you where the potential stress is. If a shaft has a lot of wiggle in the growth ring lines, chances are, that's where it will move, if it's going to move.
One of the reasons that we select shaft wood with straight growth lines is because that's a strong indication that there is no internal stress. These shafts should T/D without incident. Those with a lot of wiggle have a lot of built-in potential to move.
 
KJ Cues said:
After I've cut the ferrule to size, I do the entire T/D with sandpaper starting with FRESH 120 grit. That's pretty coarse. The key to avoiding heat is to use fresh paper that isn't loaded-up or worn-out. Paper that isn't cutting anymore is just creating friction/heat; burnishing really.

The 120 grit is the work-horse that gets me to near finished size. From there I progress through the finer grits to remove the sanding marks left from the previous grits, finishing up with 1,000 grit. Seal, wax & deliver.
Generally 20 mins. start to finish.

There are no guarantees with a T/D. If a shaft is going to move, it's going to move. Most all don't though. The wood really doesn't care how long you take. If the wood has internal stress, it will still be there a week from now, a month from now or a year from now. You can't change that anymore than you can change the grain pattern. The growth ring/lines will tell you where the potential stress is. If a shaft has a lot of wiggle in the growth ring lines, chances are, that's where it will move, if it's going to move.
One of the reasons that we select shaft wood with straight growth lines is because that's a strong indication that there is no internal stress. These shafts should T/D without incident. Those with a lot of wiggle have a lot of built-in potential to move.
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I totally agree with what you say, if a piece of wood is going to move its going to move no matter what. And I guess I should have explained a little more, I use a coarse grit to start and then when its close to "final" I will work with finner grits until its at the size I want and smooth. I have had wood with straight grain just move for no apparent reason, its not common mind you its only happened a couple of times, but it does happen. I use my air hose to blow off the paper every couple of mins until it isnt cutting, then it gets tossed. When at finish size and smooth I will reseal it and wax. I always tell my customers that there shaft could move after a T/D as there could be internal stress and I dont know how well they treat there cue. I had one customer leave his cue in his trunk and with the shaft at "13mm" it was ok but when I did a T/D on it I told him not to leave it in his trunk....he did and wham-o ! He went from about 13 down to a shave under 12.
 
When someone brings in a shaft to be reduced in size or retapered less than .25mm I will sand to that size. However, I will never sand a 1/4 mm or more. I put in new centers in the shaft and then turn down to about 1/10 to 1/20 mm over size and then just sand from there. I have found that when a shaft is turning fast enough to sand it no longer will run true but centrifugal force makes it whip some. When sanding, where the shaft is whipping, one side will sand more than the other side leaving the shaft not rolling true. It will look like it's warped although it's actually not, it's just that one side is sanded more than the other. This scenario will allow the tip to run true with the cue but in the center of the shaft, when looking for light, you will see a roll.

Dick
 
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