Questions about instructors

[7forlife]

The true question is not who would win in a match, but who can teach others more effectively.

correction: the question is exactly as it was stated.

This is not a thread about who can or how well some coach is, I pointed out the "obvious" sport related comment you made in the beginning but the question is why and when comes to pool is this so. "POOL" coaches are more easily able to be both as appose to other sports so to me "it doesn't count", not much anyway.

 

[Bambu]

correction: the question is exactly as it was stated.

This is not a thread about who can or how well some coach is, I pointed out the "obvious" sport related comment you made in the beginning but the question is why and when comes to pool is this so. "POOL" coaches are more easily able to be both as appose to other sports so to me "it doesn't count", not much anyway.

I never thought I'd say this, but where is Patrick Johnson when you need him?

 

[ghostball]

I'm not certain now that he's relocated to North Carolina, but when he lived in Florida Ray Martin was offering priivate instruction in his home for $50 per hour.
BCA hall of famer
2 time world straight pool champion
literally wrote the book(s) on aiming and strategy

A trip to North Carolina and a weekend with Ray will cost less and improve your game more than almost any of the seminars out there, just because of the 1-on-1 undivided attention you'll receive.

(I got my training from Ray the old-fashioned way ~ by losing game after game to him at Clifton billiards back in the 80s) (Ray got more of my rent money than my landlord ever did)

Well who ever you are thank you,that means we go back a long way.
Ray

 

[ghostball]

I'm not certain now that he's relocated to North Carolina, but when he lived in Florida Ray Martin was offering priivate instruction in his home for $50 per hour.
BCA hall of famer
2 time world straight pool champion
literally wrote the book(s) on aiming and strategy

A trip to North Carolina and a weekend with Ray will cost less and improve your game more than almost any of the seminars out there, just because of the 1-on-1 undivided attention you'll receive.

(I got my training from Ray the old-fashioned way ~ by losing game after game to him at Clifton billiards back in the 80s) (Ray got more of my rent money than my landlord ever did)

Oh by the way I do live in Raleigh N.C and the price for lessons are still the same 50.00 per hour and just you and me.

 

[BRussell]

Playing well does not require self-awareness, teaching well does.

 

[JoeW]

Joe W,

I don't want to take anything away from professional instructors and I don't want to compare their instruction to that of a top pro. I just think you are mistaken when you say that some pros are naturals who can't teach, or that some would even be detrimental.

I am curious, suppose you were fortunate enough to travel with a world class player and your action directly affected his pocketbook. You can pick any top player you want when considering this question, he could have fundamentals that are far from preferential. Do you honestly believe that this pro would not be able to teach you at least a little and possibly a lot on every aspect of the game, mechanics, knowledge, the mental game, all of it?

You take the argument beyond the question. Certainly you can learn from anyone. Their ability to teach may be limited but you can observe, listen to their reasoning (which may or may not be good), and learn by observation. That does not make them a teacher. You may learn one thing that applies in a limited way. From a learning perspective it is better to learn general principles that can be applied across many situations.

It is also true that there are people who teach for the "wrong" reasons from the perspective of a "teacher." This does not detract from the differences between a "teacher" and a "player." The differences are real and of course there are all sorts of variations.

As I said in the article, we teach children to hold their mouth in the right way to learn to hit a nail on the head. Unfortunately, some people believe in their own superstitious behavior regardless of their ability, they believe that their way is the best way based on their experience but not on the facts.

I just watched the slow mo of Shane V's break. It works for him and it incorporates some of the principles that are known. I doubt that it is the way someone should learn to break well and consistently. He may have the particular skills (learned through trial and error over years) to break as he does, I suspect that most people do not have that skill set and that there is a better way for the average player.

Someone asked one of the pros why he doesn't teach and his answer was something to the effect that "I don't know what I do." Not only do some of them not know what they do, they also don't know why they do it.

When you don't know "why" you cannot create a set of principles that generalize across many situations. Those who understand the principles and the generalizations may not have the physical skill to execute them.

To know the "why" you must first understand the fundamentals. Only then can you learn advanced concepts as they are interrelated and lead to generalized principles that can be applied across many situations. Some people prefer to learn to execute and could care less about the why.

When you learn the comprehensive general principles from a teacher you can then apply your own idiosyncratic style to make the game your own not a mirror image of someone else. Pros on the cutting edge might teach you one or two new tricks to improve your performance. Good teachers are close to but not on the cutting edge of their discipline for the most part.

Unless you are a pro yourself, your time is better spent with a teacher who considers your current skill level and the next issues that you should address.

 

[Williebetmore]

how did they do in the UTB last week? no wait, how did they do at the SBE? the US Open, WHAT? WHAT DID THEY PLAY IN WITH THEIR HIGH SPEED.

p.s.
JMO

7-man,
Mark Wilson was a touring pro in the 90's when there WAS a men's tour, and a member of the first 2 Mosconi Cup teams. Sank the 9-ball that gave the U.S. the very first Cup. Has tournament wins (race to 13 or 15) over Buddy Hall, Mike Sigel, Earl Strickland and quite a few others (though he will be the first to say he is NOT better than them; and he will be the last one to tell you any of these things....but I will ).

 

[JoeW]

To review the differences between what you can learn from a "teacher" and from a "Pro" watch the Shane Slow Mo video and then watch Colin's as he teaches you the "how" and the "why" of a powrful break that you can modify to suit your needs. Incidentally, Colin is a university teacher or professional university coach, not sure which.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW1tsONEI_U

The video is not all that good but the concepts you can learn are priceless. You may even learn "why" Shane does some of the things he does that you can then modify for your own needs.

Oh yeah, I wonder if Shane reviewed this video. It has been around for a long time.

BTW, if you pay close attention, Colin also will point the way to a powerful draw shot. Another concept that might be of use and generalized in any of several ways.

 

[JC]

When you listen to the advice of folks just look at what they have. That's what you can expect if you follow. When your financial advisor drives up in a POS car make sure their advocating a thrifty lifestyle as a way to save for the future, otherwise run like hell!

JC

 

[Scaramouche]

I always suggest to my opponents that to improve they should emulate the pros.
To that end, I suggest stroke lessons from Busamante and Keith McCready.

 

[Pidge]

If you asked most top players what makes them so good, they wouldn't be able to tell you. If you asked them to teach you how to aim, again they would struggle to explain. They just do what they do without thinking. Most of their ability in position and pocketing balls is done subconsciously. I think the only thing they could explain in any detail to the average Joe that would really help their game would be strategy.

Teachers excel in explaining something in an easy to understand way. They have a lot of knowledge about the game and even if they haven't competed at the top level, they explain things better than anyone currently at the top level. they give you a solid foundation in which YOU have to build on. Look at the top players - not one of them have the same stance, head position or stroke. But most will have been taught a very similar stance, stroke head placement etc but over the years have developed a winning formula for themselves. The way I see instruction is that it can only take you so far, to get to the highest level you have to figure stuff out for your self.

 

[nobcitypool]

I've had the good fortune of having multiple lessons each from Scott Lee, Gene Albrecht, Stevie Moore and Stan Shuffett. Obviously, the playing levels of each is a bit different. Despite what some would try to say here, Scott Lee can play at a very high level. Perhaps he could have even competed at the pro level had he chosen that path earlier in his career. Obviously, the other 3 guys all are very high level players.

I've learned a ton from each of those gentlemen. All 4 are worth every dollar they charge and then some IMHO. Gene's deal is Perfect Aim so that is his focus. Interestingly enough, each of the other 3 think the stroke is most important and are superb at teaching it. Each also agree pretty much on the basic fundamentals of the stroke.

Bottom line, I think each of those gentlemen could potentially help just about any level of player. Dependent upon the person, their capabilities, fundamentals and weaknesses, one might be a little better than others. However, again, I think each would bring something to the party.

I hope , at some point, I can take a lesson from Jerry Brieseth, Mark Wilson and Ray Martin. I didn't get my Engineering degree and achieve Professional success from one teacher and/or Mentor. Literally hundreds and thousands of different people have contributed along the way. Arguably, I've enjoyed more professional success than 95% plus of those I've learned from but that doesn't mean I'd hesitate a second to listen to advice from any one of them today. As far as pool goes, I've learned a ton here at AZ reading threads, watching people's home videos and buying books/DVD's people have recommended. Dr. Dave isn't a Pro but his VEPS DVD's should be in any serious pool enthusiasts library IMHO.

Honestly, I don't think the issue should generally be about the Instructor but rather more about the Student. Too many people are close minded, lack commitment, are lazy and have an ego that won't allow them to learn. They're looking for the mythical silver bullet. The greatest teacher in the world can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

 

[Roger Long]

correction: the question is exactly as it was stated.

This is not a thread about who can or how well some coach is, I pointed out the "obvious" sport related comment you made in the beginning but the question is why and when comes to pool is this so. "POOL" coaches are more easily able to be both as appose to other sports so to me "it doesn't count", not much anyway.

You seem to have your mind already made up that most instructors are nothing more than non-playing charlatans (that's called prejudice), and you've made it clear that you do not want anyone to try and change your mind on that, so why did you ask the question in the first place?

Roger

 

[7forlife]

7-man,
Mark Wilson was a touring pro in the 90's when there WAS a men's tour, and a member of the first 2 Mosconi Cup teams. Sank the 9-ball that gave the U.S. the very first Cup. Has tournament wins (race to 13 or 15) over Buddy Hall, Mike Sigel, Earl Strickland and quite a few others (though he will be the first to say he is NOT better than them; and he will be the last one to tell you any of these things....but I will ).

No doubt about it and i'm sure that there are many more but see what draws my attention is this. Up until X amount of years ago you could find these players turn coach who would in turn still compete but all that went away, and understand this I feel helps understand why pool has fallen into it's current state (point being: not as many famous players are coaching or not as many coaches are putting there name out there on the battle field) so there is no follow ship a-b or b-a.

what do you think would happen if shane opened up a room and started giving lessons or turned in to a scott lee "BOOM! mind blown"

 

[7forlife]

You seem to have your mind already made up that most instructors are nothing more than non-playing charlatans (that's called prejudice), and you've made it clear that you do not want anyone to try and change your mind on that, so why did you ask the question in the first place?

Roger

I would like very much sir if you would leave my thread alone, since you are the one who's mind is made up. Thus far you are the outstanding comment that i dislike so how about we both leave each other alone. Thanks

 

[7forlife]

I always suggest to my opponents that to improve they should emulate the pros.
To that end, I suggest stroke lessons from Busamante and Keith McCready.

LOL.

I didn't know when but i knew that these two were going to come up sometime. And let's not forget my friend Rob Saez, knew him back in connecticut with that crazy aim.

 

[prewarhero]

I would like very much sir if you would leave my thread alone, since you are the one who's mind is made up. Thus far you are the outstanding comment that i dislike so how about we both leave each other alone. Thanks

seems to me you are looking to be antagonistic and you are the one that doesn't want dissenting opinions in the thread. Take a chill pill.

 

[nobcitypool]

what do you think would happen if shane opened up a room and started giving lessons or turned in to a scott lee "BOOM! mind blown"

Not much. Nothing against Shane, he's obviously one of the best players on the planet. However, if his aiming DVD is any indication, he isn't gifted as a Teacher. To be clear, I'm not saying he couldn't teach people anything, I'm simply saying teaching isn't his gift.

You seem to be attempting to make the point that the very best players would automatically be the very best teachers. That's not been the case in any other sport I'm aware of. In fact, take football, basketball, baseball or golf as an example. How many former Super Star HOF players are now head coaches?

I think the Super Star pool player that may turn out to be a great teacher is CJ. I don't know about all the TOI stuff but CJ is cerebral, a good communicator, loves the game and seems to really enjoy teaching.

 

[woody_968]

I think the Super Star pool player that may turn out to be a great teacher is CJ. I don't know about all the TOI stuff but CJ is cerebral, a good communicator, loves the game and seems to really enjoy teaching.

CJ has given out some absolute gem's on these boards, I would love to spend a few hours with him.

Another one I would put at the top of the list is Max. He does put himself out there in competition, and has some of the best teaching material on the market.

Someone also mentioned Joe Tucker. While for what ever reason he chooses he does not compete in a lot of the big tourneys, he can play pretty sporty. I think there are a lot of gimmicky teaching aids out there, but Joe has some of the best available.

One thing to note, a lot of top players started very young. Some of them are what people call naturals, all though I think that is a misleading term as they still have to put in a ton of work.

But if your wanting to learn, are you better off learning from someone that the game came more naturally too and got to the top with little instruction? Or are you better off learning from someone that nothing came easy to, and had to go through all the struggles and search for knowledge that led them to the level they achieved even though that level may not be that of a top pro?

 

[cluelesscuer]

I've often wondered how much people really gained from instructors. I often here great raves from a player after an instructor session, but it always seems their playing ability doesn't change much. They seem to stay at the same speed...3 or 6 months after their lesson.

I wonder how often is it the 'placebo' effect that occurs right after a lesson???