Questions about instructors

[incognito]

Most great pool players are very poor teachers. Usually, the reason they go into teaching the game is because they can't make any money playing. Also, if you look at professional sports you'll see that the top coaches typically were no great players. Most of them were good players at best. Many were mediocre or even bad players. Some never played professionally at all. A few great players have gone into coaching and none of them that I know of have been very successful or lasted very long. It follows that a good BCA certified instructor who's not a great player would make a much better teacher than a world class pol player.

 

[Elmo]

top of the line!

I took lessons from Anthony Beeler in Kentucky earlier this year and he is great! He believes in progress monitoring and I improved from running just over 10 balls to running over 70 balls in about 3 months.

He says that people who take lessons want to know that they are improving. Thats why he asks his students to collect data before and after they take lessons. He really is a great teacher! He has beat several pro players in tournament competition and also writes for Inside POOL magazine. I highly recommend him!

His website is www.poolteacher.com

 

[dr_dave]

I took lessons from Anthony Beeler in Kentucky earlier this year and he is great! He believes in progress monitoring and I improved from running just over 10 balls to running over 70 balls in about 3 months.

He says that people who take lessons want to know that they are improving. Thats why he asks his students to collect data before and after they take lessons.

FYI to instructors and students working on their games, the free Billiard University (BU) Exams are an effective, efficient, challenging, and fun way to assess level of play and monitor improvement over time.

If you haven't seen the exams yet, check them out and give them a try (and post scores on the AZB BU thread to document your current skill level and improvement over time).

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[SmoothStroke]

Give it a shot

If a player is taking lessons they better get an instructor that can deliver all the strokes (ALL THE STROKES AND ALL VARIATIONS OF EACH STROKE) If a player is learning a stroke the instructor has to be able to perform it and perform it well as visualization is very important to a student. If the instructor cannot perform it I suggest to find one who can, otherwise it will take forever to master a stroke. If you have an instructor who can perform and also give you the book knowledge then you have something.

There are world class players that have horrible fundamentals and worse preliminary stroke routine, but the final delivery stroke is there.
The bottom line is taking lessons or not is to remember when you hit the stroke perfecty to remember that feel and practice it until mastered.

Pool is very simple and easy to understand.With all the knowledge out there today I think it is making this game too complicated for beginners. This aiming system, that one, physics lessons, this book, that book, schools,etc.
Some good info and lots of useless info.

Pool is learned on a pool table, the more a players arm is in motion the better chance at getting better. The myth of playing better players only goes so far. C players playing shortstops is great. His muscle memory will be unstoppable when it comes to racking

Simple to understand.
Fundamentals, Stroke, Game Play, add some book knowledge and keep it simple.

WITHOUT STROKE everything else is useless. You can walk around and say I know this and I know that.Whoopy Freakin DoDo
!! BUT !! I wish I had a stroke to perform it

 

[Okie]

If a player is taking lessons they better get an instructor that can deliver all the strokes (ALL THE STROKES AND ALL VARIATIONS OF EACH STROKE) If a player is learning a stroke the instructor has to be able to perform it and perform it well as visualization is very important to a student. If the instructor cannot perform it I suggest to find one who can, otherwise it will take forever to master a stroke. If you have an instructor who can perform and also give you the book knowledge then you have something.

There are world class players that have horrible fundamentals and worse preliminary stroke routine, but the final delivery stroke is there.
The bottom line is taking lessons or not is to remember when you hit the stroke perfecty to remember that feel and practice it until mastered.

Pool is very simple and easy to understand.With all the knowledge out there today I think it is making this game too complicated for beginners. This aiming system, that one, physics lessons, this book, that book, schools,etc.
Some good info and lots of useless info.

Pool is learned on a pool table, the more a players arm is in motion the better chance at getting better. The myth of playing better players only goes so far. C players playing shortstops is great. His muscle memory will be unstoppable when it comes to racking

Simple to understand.
Fundamentals, Stroke, Game Play, add some book knowledge and keep it simple.

WITHOUT STROKE everything else is useless. You can walk around and say I know this and I know that.Whoopy Freakin DoDo
!! BUT !! I wish I had a stroke to perform it

This post has a lot of very good points in it. In many cases pseudo instructors make it very complicated when there is no reason for it to be. Equally as true is that requiring a teacher to be a 100 ball runner is unnecessary. The idea that a teacher must be able to demonstrate what he is teaching is complete nonsense. A teacher must be able to observe and then communicate the correct method which will improve the student's game. Actually improving the student's game is the responsibility of the student which is accomplished by time at the table.

Sidenote: I was playing a guy once who made the object ball jump another ball to get into the pocket. I told him I had no idea that could be done. We then went on to discuss that I thought he knew a lot more about pool than I did at the time. He disagreed on the grounds that if he knew more than I did then he wouldn't be getting the 7 ball in our current match.

Moral of the story is that knowing and doing are two completely different skills. Just as teaching and doing are....

Ken

 

[SmoothStroke]

This post has a lot of very good points in it. In many cases pseudo instructors make it very complicated when there is no reason for it to be. Equally as true is that requiring a teacher to be a 100 ball runner is unnecessary. The idea that a teacher must be able to demonstrate what he is teaching is complete nonsense. A teacher must be able to observe and then communicate the correct method which will improve the student's game. Actually improving the student's game is the responsibility of the student which is accomplished by time at the table.

Sidenote: I was playing a guy once who made the object ball jump another ball to get into the pocket. I told him I had no idea that could be done. We then went on to discuss that I thought he knew a lot more about pool than I did at the time. He disagreed on the grounds that if he knew more than I did then he wouldn't be getting the 7 ball in our current match.

Moral of the story is that knowing and doing are two completely different skills. Just as teaching and doing are....

Ken

You can call it nonsense if you like. You may also observe and communicate until you are blue in the face and get nowhere as an instructor and a frustrated student.

If you have knowledge and can perform, the student will be in a much better position to learn and learn at a much quicker pace.

Putting all things aside (stance, head position,grip,bridges,vertical forearm..etc.etc. All important teachings but the stroke is everything.
This is where an instructor should be able to perform. There comes a point, even sometimes before the student ever attempts the stroke is where an instructor should say, let's do a 5 min visual and watch the stroke ( I will perform it ) He must also tell the student not to watch the ball go in the pocket but watch my delivery stroke until completion. I guarantee you will catch the student watching the ball; you must catch them in the act and correct that.

Humans are visual creatures, monkey see monkey do. When a student sees you performing a pure, clean smooth delivery stroke and the cue ball is doing what you are trying to achieve they have much more confidence in the instructor and feel if he can perform it so can I. If a student should ask to learn 3 rails and out with running English at 2 click and the instructor can't perform it I see an issue. A student can only accomplish what they learned at the table. If they were only told and not visually shown how could they be responsible for something they only heard about? I WANT A REFUND.

If I am a student and expect to learn nip draw, force follow, stun, jump, power draw etc. etc. you can bet your life I want an instructor who can perform it and not one that wants to talk me through it for 12 months.

A husband and wife can look each other in the eyes and not say any words, but they know they are saying I love you. A son or daughter can hit the game winning shot and look at their parents and through the eyes they can see they are proud of them...ALL VISUAL

Moral of the story: Visualization cannot be duplicated verbally, combine the two and now you have an instructor.

 

[buddha162]

Stroke/mechanics aside, what happens when a student asks an instructor "how should I run out this rack"?

Now let's assume that the student is an A player. Is he going to accept a runout pattern from a B player/instructor? What about safety play: is the A student going to get his money's worth by listening to a B player/instructor teach him a B-level safety, or even when to play safe?

Seems preposterous to me. I doubt this scenario ever comes up in real life, despite the echo chamber ringing in this thread.

-roger

 

[TheCutShot]

Well i have always heard that there are those who can do, but cant teach and those who can teach, but cant do.
Thats kind of over simplifying it somewhat i guess but its pretty close. There are hitting and pitching coaches in Baseball who were never stellar performers but they know how it can be done and know how to translate it to others.
Some people just have the eye to spot improvements or weaknesses, why they cant do it themselves at that high level is a very good question.

What he said!!

Boils down to - The best players don't always make the best coaches, nor do the best coaches always make the best players. (regardless of what sport)

 

[Ratta]

Stroke/mechanics aside, what happens when a student asks an instructor "how should I run out this rack"?

Now let's assume that the student is an A player. Is he going to accept a runout pattern from a B player/instructor? What about safety play: is the A student going to get his money's worth by listening to a B player/instructor teach him a B-level safety, or even when to play safe?

Seems preposterous to me. I doubt this scenario ever comes up in real life, despite the echo chamber ringing in this thread.

-roger

HI buddha,

your posting is for sure not *wrong*-- it has a good sense. To just speak for myself- i recommend every single of my students to learn as much as possible...whenever a *new* information is available for him. Additional i tell everybody to learn from other instructors, too. Furthermore i will give them also the names where i would think, that it s extremly worth to work with these instructors.
I don t have the opinion that i would limitate myself with these advices-- i m sure that i can help many students-also on a high level. But there are parts in the game, where i know exactly that there also other guys who are extremly great in doing their job. Sometimes there is just a moment where i feel for myself, that the student doesn t *get* what i want him to do-- if he, for what reason ever is not able to understand or not able to do what i expect. Then it would be time, to recommend to give it another try to work with somebody else.

Every instructor (of course just my humble opinion) should be serious to himself and should be able to understand when the moment has come, where he s not able to teach his student anymore. For what reason it ever may be

Not only the student needs the correct attitude-- also the instructor!

lg
INgo

 

[Okie]

You can call it nonsense if you like. You may also observe and communicate until you are blue in the face and get nowhere as an instructor and a frustrated student.

If you have knowledge and can perform, the student will be in a much better position to learn and learn at a much quicker pace.

Putting all things aside (stance, head position,grip,bridges,vertical forearm..etc.etc. All important teachings but the stroke is everything.
This is where an instructor should be able to perform. There comes a point, even sometimes before the student ever attempts the stroke is where an instructor should say, let's do a 5 min visual and watch the stroke ( I will perform it ) He must also tell the student not to watch the ball go in the pocket but watch my delivery stroke until completion. I guarantee you will catch the student watching the ball; you must catch them in the act and correct that.

Humans are visual creatures, monkey see monkey do. When a student sees you performing a pure, clean smooth delivery stroke and the cue ball is doing what you are trying to achieve they have much more confidence in the instructor and feel if he can perform it so can I. If a student should ask to learn 3 rails and out with running English at 2 click and the instructor can't perform it I see an issue. A student can only accomplish what they learned at the table. If they were only told and not visually shown how could they be responsible for something they only heard about? I WANT A REFUND.

If I am a student and expect to learn nip draw, force follow, stun, jump, power draw etc. etc. you can bet your life I want an instructor who can perform it and not one that wants to talk me through it for 12 months.

A husband and wife can look each other in the eyes and not say any words, but they know they are saying I love you. A son or daughter can hit the game winning shot and look at their parents and through the eyes they can see they are proud of them...ALL VISUAL

Moral of the story: Visualization cannot be duplicated verbally, combine the two and now you have an instructor.

Agreed. Teaching a student the visual and the feel of the proper stroke is the key to successfully improving a player.

I wonder if the image of Francisco Bustamante's stroke would help a new player understand how to deliver the tip consistently and successfully to it's target. Most likely not.

But if I was to take images of him and say a dozen other pros and show them to a student then I would have something. The student would understand that the key is delivery at the point of contact. And I can do that without ever picking up a cue.

It's not about what a person can do. It is about what a person can teach.

Good stuff!

Ken

p.s. After rereading my last post, using the word nonsense sounded a bit disrespectful. That was not my intent.

 

[buddha162]

HI buddha,

your posting is for sure not *wrong*-- it has a good sense. To just speak for myself- i recommend every single of my students to learn as much as possible...whenever a *new* information is available for him. Additional i tell everybody to learn from other instructors, too. Furthermore i will give them also the names where i would think, that it s extremly worth to work with these instructors.
I don t have the opinion that i would limitate myself with these advices-- i m sure that i can help many students-also on a high level. But there are parts in the game, where i know exactly that there also other guys who are extremly great in doing their job. Sometimes there is just a moment where i feel for myself, that the student doesn t *get* what i want him to do-- if he, for what reason ever is not able to understand or not able to do what i expect. Then it would be time, to recommend to give it another try to work with somebody else.

Every instructor (of course just my humble opinion) should be serious to himself and should be able to understand when the moment has come, where he s not able to teach his student anymore. For what reason it ever may be

Not only the student needs the correct attitude-- also the instructor!

lg
INgo

You also make too much sense for these forums, but then again you're German.

I think if an instructor is as honest and conscientious as you are, the student is in good hands. I just cannot accept the simple, foolish notion that somehow the ability to play has no bearing whatsoever on the ability to teach. It all depends on what level the student is at, and what areas he needs work on.

-roger

 

[Okie]

You also make too much sense for these forums, but then again you're German.

I think if an instructor is as honest and conscientious as you are, the student is in good hands. I just cannot accept the simple, foolish notion that somehow the ability to play has no bearing whatsoever on the ability to teach. It all depends on what level the student is at, and what areas he needs work on.

-roger

I doubt anyone would argue with the point I bolded in your quote.

I was under the impression that we were debating that to be a top instructor one has to be or have been a top player. Which is just not true.

Ken

p.s. I make no claim to being either a top instructor or a top player. I am just a guy who will help you where/when I can.

 

[Masayoshi]

I doubt anyone would argue with the point I bolded in your quote.

I was under the impression that we were debating that to be a top instructor one has to be or have been a top player. Which is just not true.

Ken

p.s. I make no claim to being either a top instructor or a top player. I am just a guy who will help you where/when I can.

I don't think anybody claimed top instructors have to have been top players at one point, just that B players probably aren't going to cut it when instructing more advanced players on things other than basic stuff like troubleshooting mechanics.

There is probably a point where you know enough to teach all levels of play about other aspects of the game, but that point probably falls around shortstop or maybe even higher.

If one is to teach another player strategy, shot selection, advanced cue ball control, pressure management, etc. to players wishing to achieve a pro level of play, I think it is safe to say that that person must have the same level of knowledge that a pro possesses if not the ability to play on that level. A person with a rudimentary stroke, but the knowledge of a pro should be able to play at least at an A level fairly easily (in fact, elderly former pros show this quite often). It follows that if a person is a B player and has never been more than a B player, they probably don't have enough knowledge to teach advanced students about more advanced subjects of the game.

Of course, when teaching beginners and C players, a B player might be a better teacher than a more advanced player because it is probably easier for the B player to relate to the problems beginners often have.

 

[Ratta]

I don't think anybody claimed top instructors have to have been top players at one point, just that B players probably aren't going to cut it when instructing more advanced players on things other than basic stuff like troubleshooting mechanics.

There is probably a point where you know enough to teach all levels of play about other aspects of the game, but that point probably falls around shortstop or maybe even higher.

If one is to teach another player strategy, shot selection, advanced cue ball control, pressure management, etc. to players wishing to achieve a pro level of play, I think it is safe to say that that person must have the same level of knowledge that a pro possesses if not the ability to play on that level. A person with a rudimentary stroke, but the knowledge of a pro should be able to play at least at an A level fairly easily (in fact, elderly former pros show this quite often). It follows that if a person is a B player and has never been more than a B player, they probably don't have enough knowledge to teach advanced students about more advanced subjects of the game.

Of course, when teaching beginners and C players, a B player might be a better teacher than a more advanced player because it is probably easier for the B player to relate to the problems beginners often have.

Good posting-
agree here- well chosen words Masayoshi

 

[Okie]

I don't think anybody claimed top instructors have to have been top players at one point, just that B players probably aren't going to cut it when instructing more advanced players on things other than basic stuff like troubleshooting mechanics.

There is probably a point where you know enough to teach all levels of play about other aspects of the game, but that point probably falls around shortstop or maybe even higher.

If one is to teach another player strategy, shot selection, advanced cue ball control, pressure management, etc. to players wishing to achieve a pro level of play, I think it is safe to say that that person must have the same level of knowledge that a pro possesses if not the ability to play on that level. A person with a rudimentary stroke, but the knowledge of a pro should be able to play at least at an A level fairly easily (in fact, elderly former pros show this quite often). It follows that if a person is a B player and has never been more than a B player, they probably don't have enough knowledge to teach advanced students about more advanced subjects of the game.

Of course, when teaching beginners and C players, a B player might be a better teacher than a more advanced player because it is probably easier for the B player to relate to the problems beginners often have.

I think where I am looking at things differently is where I come from....golf. In golf you very seldom give a course management lesson to anyone. So when I think of instruction I think more about teaching how to hit the cue ball more than I am thinking about how to play the game.

The choices made during a game would most definitely be best taught by someone who has studied those moves. A top player would obviously be more than qualified to discuss/teach how he moves around the table.

Getting a clearer picture of what was meant now!

Ken

 

[boyersj]

I think there has been a very distinct category overlooked, and probably why there is differing opinions.

There is instruction for behind the cueball - mechanics and pre-shot routine. A B-level instructor can help anyone get to a certain level, beyond their own level in fact.

The best players don't have to make great shots, they make good decisions and play high percentage pool. Their ball speed is phenomenal and so is the break. Their process is repeatable.

The only person who can teach us speed, is us through training.
The decision making process is a function of experience, and while watching and talking to a top speed player may help with that but most likely they are focused on their own game instead of yours...
That is why they got to be top speed

 

[KRJ]

So, it seems when a player reaches a certain point, semi pro speed, they should only engage a professioal type player to assist them to move their game further to compete in the pro ranks.

Well, I beg to differ. What he needs is an intervention

 

[SmoothStroke]

The Brain

You cannot teach anyone to think like you or anyone else. You can teach them to recognize their options and best routes for pattern play and safety play.
Throw out a bunch of racks in any game and you may see different patterns played by 10 different players.
The battle of the brain is to recognize your options, quickly and decisively as to not scramble the brain...then execute
To me it's the most difficult to teach

 

[JoeyA]

Now there is good reasons to lead to a possible cause for my lack of knowledge but i'lll skip that and get right to the point.

Why is that if instructors are soooo good at what they do and have all these qualities that so many people value i.e. fundaments and all that, then why is it that you "well I" don't see then in tourneys bringing the pain and being a better ad for themselves? or even why haven't I heard of them a few years back (in case anyone wants to say that they don't play anymore) doing the same.

There is always new of a player gone coach or announcer in other sports but I have no knowledge of this in pool, of course with the very very few exceptions. Car companies started off racing to better show what there production cars can do in order to boost sales.

can someone shed some light on this matter for me please, and for the love of _____ forum police and critics please stay of this one with your negative comments and what about C.J or T. Robles or any other known person. I feel that I am asking a good question and would rather read sensible replies and not have to filter through yours.

7forlife,
Unfortunately, I just read this thread about instructors or I might have responded before you got yourself banned.

Stan Shuffett can bring the pain and has on occasion against the best players in the world. Yes, he's one of the guy's teaching an aiming system called CTE/Pro1. And now he's teaching professional pool players like Stevie Moore and Brandon Shuff CTE/Pro1, so you see there are professional players that instruct/teach and play at a very high level.

I think some of the other instructors have been known to run a century from time to time but maybe that's something that has passed you by too.

It is sad that people such as yourself find such joy in trying to distort the facts about instructors. Some of them play very well, others not so well but all of them could probably teach you a thing or two and I bet that a few of them would take all of your dough if they gambled with you.

Normally, I don't respond to threads after the thread starter gets banned but this is an exception. Hopefully, you'll come back with another alias and be a kinder, gentler and WISER poster.

Best Regards,
JoeyA

 

[SmoothStroke]

All Good

Agreed. Teaching a student the visual and the feel of the proper stroke is the key to successfully improving a player.

I wonder if the image of Francisco Bustamante's stroke would help a new player understand how to deliver the tip consistently and successfully to it's target. Most likely not.

But if I was to take images of him and say a dozen other pros and show them to a student then I would have something. The student would understand that the key is delivery at the point of contact. And I can do that without ever picking up a cue.

It's not about what a person can do. It is about what a person can teach.

Good stuff!

Ken

p.s. After rereading my last post, using the word nonsense sounded a bit disrespectful. That was not my intent.

No problem at all. I could have been more diplomatic myself.
Be well