Questions about instructors

cluelesscuer said:
I've often wondered how much people really gained from instructors. I often here great raves from a player after an instructor session, but it always seems their playing ability doesn't change much. They seem to stay at the same speed...3 or 6 months after their lesson.

I wonder how often is it the 'placebo' effect that occurs right after a lesson???
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There is one thing about getting lessons that a lot of people seem to ignore. People actually have to PRACTICE what they learn lol. So many people go to take a lesson and think an instructor is going to give them a magic pill to make them play better, and its just not out there.

The strength of a good instructor is often in their observation skills, and being able to point out what it is that needs to be changed. Most players do not have the discipline to stop playing long enough to work on these changes. It is very hard to change mechanics, especially if you are "playing" while trying to change. When we start playing we normally revert back to what we were doing before, unless we have spent enough time solidifying the change. Even then you have to have a good understanding of what your bad habits are, then you know what to look at first when your game starts to go off track.
 
I think you wrote Woody is very true. If I were to get an instructor, I would be more interested in getting one on a reoccurring basic than just a one time thing. Unless you a new to the game...I wonder how much is to be gained from a one time lesson.

I think you almost need more of a coach than an instructor to install that discipline.
 
cluelesscuer said:
I think you wrote Woody is very true. If I were to get an instructor, I would be more interested in getting one on a reoccurring basic than just a one time thing. Unless you a new to the game...I wonder how much is to be gained from a one time lesson.

I think you almost need more of a coach than an instructor to install that discipline.
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That "discipline", no instructor can instill. It has to come from the student. If they truly want to improve, they will now have the tools to be able to do that. It is totally up to them to utilize those tools. If you constantly need someone there telling you to practice correctly, you don't have what it takes to ever improve much.
 
Neil said:
That "discipline", no instructor can instill. It has to come from the student. If they truly want to improve, they will now have the tools to be able to do that. It is totally up to them to utilize those tools. If you constantly need someone there telling you to practice correctly, you don't have what it takes to ever improve much.
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no doubt about it....discipline is key..you either have it..or you don't !! :thumbup:
 
cluelesscuer said:
I think you wrote Woody is very true. If I were to get an instructor, I would be more interested in getting one on a reoccurring basic than just a one time thing. Unless you a new to the game...I wonder how much is to be gained from a one time lesson.

I think you almost need more of a coach than an instructor to install that discipline.
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While a one time lesson can help, working with a qualified instructor/ coach regularly would yield the best results both short and long term. Having the tools and drive to practice regularly doesn't guarantee the best success. While we may feel like we are doing things correctly, an instructor would be able to identify those possible problems that will creep up on us while trying to correct the other problems we have. Not to mention being able to determine early on if some of the changes will work or if another approach could be more beneficial. Like any athletic movement, one size does not fit all, and a coach/ instructor should be able to determine what changes may or may not be working.
 
This:
Roger Long said:
You seem to have your mind already made up that most instructors are nothing more than non-playing charlatans (that's called prejudice), and you've made it clear that you do not want anyone to try and change your mind on that, so why did you ask the question in the first place?

Roger
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And this:
prewarhero said:
seems to me you are looking to be antagonistic and you are the one that doesn't want dissenting opinions in the thread. Take a chill pill.
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And the proof is here:
7forlife said:
how did they do in the UTB last week? no wait, how did they do at the SBE? the US Open, WHAT? WHAT DID THEY PLAY IN WITH THEIR HIGH SPEED.

p.s.
JMO
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You're being exactly the kind of asshole you asked not to respond.
 
nobcitypool said:
Not much. Nothing against Shane, he's obviously one of the best players on the planet. However, if his aiming DVD is any indication, he isn't gifted as a Teacher. To be clear, I'm not saying he couldn't teach people anything, I'm simply saying teaching isn't his gift.

You seem to be attempting to make the point that the very best players would automatically be the very best teachers. That's not been the case in any other sport I'm aware of. In fact, take football, basketball, baseball or golf as an example. How many former Super Star HOF players are now head coaches?

I think the Super Star pool player that may turn out to be a great teacher is CJ. I don't know about all the TOI stuff but CJ is cerebral, a good communicator, loves the game and seems to really enjoy teaching.
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Not at all sir, I think you missed the point, I don't think so at all to anyone. If anyone knows about teacher and player it would have to be me. My point that some have missed "specially in my last post or the one just before" is that being in the public eye is a good marketing tool, for them. Tell you what let's try bullets, for those who are not clear on what they read or my wording have thrown off board.

1) Instructors today don't play in big tourneys or most anything, why.
2) In the past there has been Hustlers/Road players who have started coaching in their later days, there has been Players/Pro who have done the same and there name ring bells because they were known prior to their change and known to be good at what they did.
3) Today, this is not seen and I believe to be directly related to pool being in it's current state, along with other things. Hence, should someone like SHANE VAN BOENING OPEN A ROOM AND SAID THAT HE WAS GIVING LESSONS HE WOULD HAVE A GOOD TURN OUT OR FEEDBACK SINCE HE IS WELL KNOWN, REGARDLESS OF IF HE CAN TEACH OR NOT. So If joe schmo billiards instructor was to say be in Turning Stone, US Open, SBE, UTB etc etc kicking ass and taking numbers (let me be clear again, I DID NOT SAY HE WON ALL THE EVENTS BACK TO BACK OR ANY) and it was said that bla bla was also an instructor to the pros or whatever this would be good for him.
4) Pool Instructors would not "only" exist in a pool forum.
5) How many people do you think that are out there who know of SVB that know he has a single instructional piece of material out there.
 
Mark Wilson took me from a banger into a player that can win tournaments on good days.
 
7forlife said:
I would like very much sir if you would leave my thread alone, since you are the one who's mind is made up. Thus far you are the outstanding comment that i dislike so how about we both leave each other alone. Thanks
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No, I don't think so. At least not yet because I really don't care what you like or dislike. You may have started this thread, but you own nothing here, so it's not "your" thread. You asked a question that has not only been asked and answered many times in these forums, but one that has also been adequetly answered several times in this thread, and yet you are still not getting the message. To me, it appears that you would like to discredit instructors, although I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because you're jealous of their communication skills? That could very well be it since you seem to have none of your own.

Roger
 
Many good points have been made... my thoughts are not all together different but maybe they will give you a different way of looking at this question.

1) I hear players say 'no one who doesn't shoot better than me could ever teach me anything' - so how then does Tiger Woods have a coach? Who on this planet would be qualified to teach him anything about how to play golf? The best player in golf has a coach that clearly doesn't play as well as he does. Too many people let their egos get in the way of improving their games because they miss opportunities to learn. If pool had the kind of money in it that golf does - there would be highly compensated coaches working hand in hand with the top pros just like in golf and players not working with those pros would be at a huge handicap.

2) If you have kids or volunteer with kids as a coach - say you played baseball growing up and want to teach a kid to throw a ball - you will very quickly realize that teaching is nothing at all like doing. Even teaching someone how to drive a stick shift can be very hard to explain after doing it for years and years. To teach you have to, not only understand, but be able to convey that knowledge in a way another person understands.

3) You can emulate a pro and if you have their natural ability and put in all the effort they put in to get to that point you might some day match what they are doing. However, it takes a whole lot longer to reach the top levels with bad technique. What if you are right handed and all the top players in the world played left handed? Would you switch? And if you really dedicated yourself to it you could learn to do it and do it well... but it wouldn't have been the best or easiest way to get there.

That video of Shane breaking - is that the best way to break? All of that movement standing 'up' as he gains length is a vitally important part of how he generates power. If you understand the physics you know why you need some height to give your arm room and generate a longer lever for a more powerful break. However, you could stand up a bit before you ever move the cue and in so doing simplify the stroke he demonstrates. Simplifying it makes it easier to learn and perfect. But I'm not a top pro so best not to listen to me ;)

Craig
 
Many world class players STILL receive instruction, and you can see that in all sports around the globe. In order to keep on learning, you must trust your coach/teacher even if they are not quite as skilled as you are.
 
ScottK that's so nice of you

To come to your "man *****" rescue.

My first comment was to thank those who had replied, my next was asking some what tournaments had some instructors play and how did they place, a question that you felt fit to quote. Then up came you love partner saying that "my mind was made up, instructors are non-playing charlatans". What the hell is he/she basing that on?. Your love partner also saw it fit to say that this topic had been touched on before "so what" many topic have been revisited on this site, so both of you can go eat a dick "wait, that's nothing to you two".

I have said nothing negative about instructors, I am glad that they are there and look forward to working with some, all I did was ask a question as to why they don't play more and how is it that they don't shine as much during a tourney.

Oh and please tell you love partner "next time you two are spooning" that since he/she wants to talk about things that have been "adequately answered" remind him/her that not reading, commenting or getting involved in threads that don't interest you have also mentioned.

So, to me sir (assuming that you are the man in that relationship) are the A$$ H@L3

P.S.
prewarhero you're also an idiot
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Thanks you again to all the other who have voiced their opinion and knowledge on THE QUESTION that some forum A Holes felt fit to join.
 
7forlife said:
Now there is good reasons to lead to a possible cause for my lack of knowledge but i'lll skip that and get right to the point.

Why is that if instructors are soooo good at what they do and have all these qualities that so many people value i.e. fundaments and all that, then why is it that you "well I" don't see then in tourneys bringing the pain and being a better ad for themselves? or even why haven't I heard of them a few years back (in case anyone wants to say that they don't play anymore) doing the same.

There is always new of a player gone coach or announcer in other sports but I have no knowledge of this in pool, of course with the very very few exceptions. Car companies started off racing to better show what there production cars can do in order to boost sales.

can someone shed some light on this matter for me please, and for the love of _____ forum police and critics please stay of this one with your negative comments and what about C.J or T. Robles or any other known person. I feel that I am asking a good question and would rather read sensible replies and not have to filter through yours.
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You're right. You don't have any knowledge of this. There are many of us who teach who have played pro pool and high level competitive pool. Just because some of them haven't gotten their certifications to teach it doesn't mean that they don't or can't teach. There are many out there.

I happen to be one who took the time to get my certification. I've played many years on the women's pro tour. I have had several high finishes on tour. Didn't win any pro events but did have a 2nd place finish. I've won several regional and local events over the years.

I'm not competing right now because my priorities have changed as I've gotten older. But that doesn't mean I don't like to compete. Come on down to Amsterdam Billiards and we'll play some. Let's see what you know, and then you can see what I know.
 
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FranCrimi said:
You're right. You don't have any knowledge of this. There are many of us who teach who have played pro pool and high level competitive pool. Just because some of them haven't gotten their certifications to teach it doesn't mean that they don't or can't teach. There are many out there.

I happen to be one who took the time to get my certification. I've played many years on the women's pro tour. I have had several high finishes on tour. Didn't win any pro events but did have a 2nd place finish. I've won several regional and local events over the years.

I'm not competing right now because my priorities have changed as I've gotten older. But that doesn't mean I don't like to compete. Come on down to Amsterdam Billiards and we'll play some. Let's see what you know, and then you can see what I know.
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Fran, don't scare the trolls... they are nervous types to begin with :)
 
you guys are funny.

Fran thanks for answering and your input specially being on both side of the coin, there are some here who can take example from you but they have another agenda.
 
I think it's pretty obvious that for an instructor to instill any confidence in his students, he/she needs to possess a certain standard/level of play. IMO that threshold is somewhere in the "open" category.

At that level, you have a good base of knowledge of every aspect of the game. To get to Open speed, your knowledge is not merely theoretical, but based on actual experience on the table. You can actually execute the shots/safeties/kicks you're trying to teach.

The analogy to other sports is dubious. Pool doesn't require any macro-level execution, with the possible exception of the break shot, and you don't need to even come close to SVB's break to compete professionally. IOW, there are no special physical requirements to play pool at a high level, whereas in baseball/boxing w/e there exists but a handful of people who have the physical attributes to execute at a pro level.

-roger
 
well put buddha.

Once again the kind of response that i was hoping to see, I hope maybe to even gets CJ's thoughts although he plays or even Max.
 
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