Rail Cloth Tension?

Travis3c

Travis3c

AV Pool Nut
Silver Member
Ok, here is a question I was thinking about today. Maybe a little off the wall but lets see if it sparks some comments

Lets say you have two identical tables, identical subrail bevels, identical cushions made from the same lot, identical cushion height, bed cloth is stretched to the exact same tension on tables in question. The rail cloth is installed with the same tension end to end but the tension over the nose of the cushion is the only difference between the two tables.

Table #1 has a very tight pull which preloads the rubber but maintains correct cushion height, no dimpling effect, and doesn't bubble the cloth when pushing in on the nose of the cushion. Lets put a numberical value on this stretch of 10.

Table #2 has a the same end to end tension as table #1 but it has a mild pull across the nose of the cushion. It still looks professional,it has no uneven stetching, there is some bubbling effect of the cloth if you push in on the rubber. The cushion has hardly any from the pull across the nose of the cushion. I will give this stetch a numberical value of 3


What would be the effects of play if any?

Every installer,more than likely, puts a different amount of tension across the rubber than the next installer. I don't ever see anyone trying to use a tensiometer installing rail cloth. Its like lining up 3 people and telling them to torque 3 bolts using a wrench to 45ft pounds and then checking them afterwards with a torque wrench.
 
Raphael Martinez, Efren, and others.

Travis3c said:
Ok, here is a question I was thinking about today. Maybe a little off the wall but lets see if it sparks some comments

Lets say you have two identical tables, identical subrail bevels, identical cushions made from the same lot, identical cushion height, bed cloth is stretched to the exact same tension on tables in question. The rail cloth is installed with the same tension end to end but the tension over the nose of the cushion is the only difference between the two tables.

Table #1 has a very tight pull which preloads the rubber but maintains correct cushion height, no dimpling effect, and doesn't bubble the cloth when pushing in on the nose of the cushion. Lets put a numberical value on this stretch of 10.

Table #2 has a the same end to end tension as table #1 but it has a mild pull across the nose of the cushion. It still looks professional,it has no uneven stetching, there is some bubbling effect of the cloth if you push in on the rubber. The cushion has hardly any from the pull across the nose of the cushion. I will give this stetch a numberical value of 3


What would be the effects of play if any?

Every installer,more than likely, puts a different amount of tension across the rubber than the next installer. I don't ever see anyone trying to use a tensiometer installing rail cloth. Its like lining up 3 people and telling them to torque 3 bolts using a wrench to 45ft pounds and then checking them afterwards with a torque wrench.
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It's true. Different tension- different cloth = different play. The nature of ALL tables in play are a little different from table to table, depending on tension, type of cloth, and a few other factors. When our good friend Raphael Martinez was in town I asked him about this and his ability to adjust. IMO, it's what seperates the really great players from everyone else. Efren can play on a table he's never played on before and adjust to the current conditions in a few shots. So can Raphael, apparently. His comment?- "I know english and I know rails". It would be great if there were more uniformity from table to table, but until then, the ability to adjust will remain very important.
 
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The #3 rails will obviously play tad bit shorter. (if the cloth is identical and from the same lot) And a tensiometer? Really? That's not even a word man let alone a piece of equipment. And if you were to use a tension meter what kind do you purpose to use? I guess we could get a generic one that looks like a fishing scale and use a mexican and some clamps to pull the cloth... lmao If we are going to talk tensions of cloth what kind of cloth are we talking about? Manufacturer, Model, COLOR. All these effect the "stretch" or give the cloth has, all of these factors affect the end result. And every one is different on how much tension you can put on the cloth at any given point. I personally put 4x the tension on granito bassalt than simonis 860... one is very elastic. So what exactly are we trying to prove/disprove on this thread?
 
hobart said:
The #3 rails will obviously play tad bit shorter. (if the cloth is identical and from the same lot) And a tensiometer? Really? That's not even a word man let alone a piece of equipment. And if you were to use a tension meter what kind do you purpose to use? I guess we could get a generic one that looks like a fishing scale and use a mexican and some clamps to pull the cloth... lmao If we are going to talk tensions of cloth what kind of cloth are we talking about? Manufacturer, Model, COLOR. All these effect the "stretch" or give the cloth has, all of these factors affect the end result. And every one is different on how much tension you can put on the cloth at any given point. I personally put 4x the tension on granito bassalt than simonis 860... one is very elastic. So what exactly are we trying to prove/disprove on this thread?
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Actually, it is both:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensiometer

As for how you'd use a tension meter, it is easily possible to see how you'd make one to tension the entire rail at once (a long clamp on one side of the cloth, and a rubber-mount on the side of the rail).

I would be extremely surprised if the better factory table manufacturers don't use something similar to make their rails.

Edit:
Actually, they make a device for exactly this type of purpose: http://www.tensitron.com/web_tension.html

There are a number of them, called web-tension meters or sheet-tension meters. It would be extremely nice to get consistency out of rails that way, the manufacturers of the cloths could easily figure out a 'recommended' tension and publish that.
 
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hobart said:
I personally put 4x the tension on granito bassalt than simonis 860... one is very elastic.
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How do you measure the 4x stretch from granito to Simonis? So, using the same 4x you claim to pull the granito on the rails, when you are stretching the bed cloth, how far are you stretching this cloth side to side? 10 inches? I find that really hard to believe.
 
And a tensiometer? Really? That's not even a word man let alone a piece of equipment.
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I have one in one of my old aircraft tool boxes, if you care to see it. It cost me about $500.00 used around 8 years ago. Its used to set cable tensions for flight controls. Would I use it on a pool table, I highly doubt it.
 
I think the first thing to do is to check rebound and angle with no cloth on the rails at all vs. with a "properly" stretched cloth. because if this result is negligible (which I am guessing it would be) then the testing can stop there ....

i think more has to do with rubber type and rail height. I am thinking that even very minute amounts of change in rail height would have way more effect then the cloth tension....to test this i would have different rail heights changing at 5/10ths of a millimeter and see what happens ....

also they always say rail height is what matters ....but is there subtle differences between k55 and k66 at a given rail height just because the geometry is slightly different?

so many factors ....but my guess is that as long as the cloth is not obviously loose on the rail it will play the same
 
for the record, a tension meter and a scale are very literally the same thing.

What would be the effects of play if any?
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in my opinion, a compressed cushion will rebound shorter simply because the cushion cannot fully rebound to its original dimension. have i scientifically proven this to be true? no.

Every installer,more than likely, puts a different amount of tension across the rubber than the next installer. I don't ever see anyone trying to use a tensiometer installing rail cloth. Its like lining up 3 people and telling them to torque 3 bolts using a wrench to 45ft pounds and then checking them afterwards with a torque wrench.
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you are absolutely right. i have been speaking with multiple table (and cushion) experts about this very issue.

what is needed is a standard, and an efficent way to employee that standard, and a method with which to reliably measure that standard after the fact.

as was mentioned previously, this is no easy task given the various varieties of cloth and cushions, so for now, people use vague terms like " pull as hard as you can "

however, this is not to say that very precise stretching methods are not already in use. some table experts have spoken at length with the cloth manufacturers and have educated themselves on proper tension for a given cloth.

some experts have measured their 'pull strength' on tension meters and have consequently learned to recognize the proper tension just by feel alone. but even from an experienced person such as that, words alone are simply not enough to describe how tight something should be.
 
When my new Gold Crown V was set up, the cloth on the rails was not stretched tight enough. As a result, the rails banked very short. After Donny (SDBilliards) recovered it with the proper tension on the rail cloth, it banks perfectly.

An experienced, highly-qualified mechanic should be able to properly install the rail cloth without any tension measuring tools; a practiced feel is all that's needed.

-Howard
 
My question is with no cloth on the rail will the table bank normal?

What I have heard from many people around here is that you pull the cloth until there is a dimple in the cushion then you staple slightly behind / ahead of where you are pulling and this will result in the perfect tension with no dimples....


the problem is that if you put the proper tension on the simonis it won't be as stretched as another cloth ..plus the simonis is thicker..


so someone needs to test this out ....i'm sure that person exists and is laughing at this thread waiting for the right moment to chime in with the results.
 
junkbond said:
When my new Gold Crown V was set up, the cloth on the rails was not stretched tight enough. As a result, the rails banked very short. After Donny (SDBilliards) recovered it with the proper tension on the rail cloth, it banks perfectly.

An experienced, highly-qualified mechanic should be able to properly install the rail cloth without any tension measuring tools; a practiced feel is all that's needed.

-Howard
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Adding to the Original Post


The same (Experienced Highly Qualified Mechanic),in this case a virtual mechanic, set up table 1 and table 2 for the test.


Ok, the reason for this post to begin with. I know of an installer who uses 5 people to set up pool tables. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, I know. He usually puts 3 guys doing the rail work and the other guy helps him work the slate bed. This got me thinking about different rail tensions affecting play.

You can just imagine how the table plays!!! All the rails look and feel completely different.
 
Rails without cloth

matteroner said:
My question is with no cloth on the rail will the table bank normal?

What I have heard from many people around here is that you pull the cloth until there is a dimple in the cushion then you staple slightly behind / ahead of where you are pulling and this will result in the perfect tension with no dimples....


the problem is that if you put the proper tension on the simonis it won't be as stretched as another cloth ..plus the simonis is thicker..


so someone needs to test this out ....i'm sure that person exists and is laughing at this thread waiting for the right moment to chime in with the results.
Click to expand...

I set up a table one time with no cloth on the rails just for fun, and it was wild. Definately not 'normal' mainly because of the extreme friction between the ball and the plain rubber. It's similar to the way a racquetball reacts, if you're familiar with that, in that there is extreme 'grab' when a ball hits a rail. You can make some of the craziest banks you can imagine because the ball reverses or speeds up when it grabs the new rubber with spin. We played with it for a couple days and then took it down because balls that were hit hard would climb the rails and go flying all over the room.
 
RackemBilliards said:
I set up a table one time with no cloth on the rails just for fun, and it was wild. Definately not 'normal' mainly because of the extreme friction between the ball and the plain rubber. It's similar to the way a racquetball reacts, if you're familiar with that, in that there is extreme 'grab' when a ball hits a rail. You can make some of the craziest banks you can imagine because the ball reverses or speeds up when it grabs the new rubber with spin. We played with it for a couple days and then took it down because balls that were hit hard would climb the rails and go flying all over the room.
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i would be talking balls hit at extremely low speeds and very small angles so friction wouldn't be a factor. ...but that sounds like fun
 
Travis3c said:
I have one in one of my old aircraft tool boxes, if you care to see it. It cost me about $500.00 used around 8 years ago. Its used to set cable tensions for flight controls. Would I use it on a pool table, I highly doubt it.
Click to expand...

I'm a bit late but I was referring to the billiard industry not soils nor water, the piece of equipment you have for your flaps & rudders doesn't share the same name as you mentioned above. Hence, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensiometer So it is highly unlikely to actually be able to use the equipment in question for the purpose suggested.

Again I apologize for my late rebuttle.
Also my mistake for the comment about my southern american friends and the fact that this is a real word and instrument, just not one for measuring the tension in rudder cables or billiard cloth. I honestly would love to see a device invented to do just this but I dont believe there is one as of yet for pool table cloth. As for the question to how I would know if I'm putting 4 x the tension on one type of cloth from the latter, well muscle memory has it's place in everything now doesn't it? Let's just say we can break out some instruments and measure it to be precise but it's just something I know and can feel.
 
hobart said:
I'm a bit late but I was referring to the billiard industry not soils nor water, the piece of equipment you have for your flaps & rudders doesn't share the same name as you mentioned above. Hence, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensiometer So it is highly unlikely to actually be able to use the equipment in question for the purpose suggested.

Again I apologize for my late rebuttle.
Also my mistake for the comment about my southern american friends and the fact that this is a real word and instrument, just not one for measuring the tension in rudder cables or billiard cloth. I honestly would love to see a device invented to do just this but I dont believe there is one as of yet for pool table cloth. As for the question to how I would know if I'm putting 4 x the tension on one type of cloth from the latter, well muscle memory has it's place in everything now doesn't it? Let's just say we can break out some instruments and measure it to be precise but it's just something I know and can feel.
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That's ok. Most of us are still here! As before, the more uniformity and consistency of play among tables, and rails, the better. Variances, (dirt, humidity, height of rails, age of cloth, condition of balls, etc.) from table to table will always make the ability to adjust to the conditions important. You'll never make every table play the same. Welcome back, BTW:smile:
 
Haha, revived from the dead. LOL. Still working on airplanes and still working on pool tables.
 
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